France starts ban on full-face veil

[Dillinger]

@Dillinger okk.....do you love your mom? If you do, say I make fun of her...not once, but repeatedly, does your blood boil? Why should it...mind you I have seen people fight over bad mouthing about moms...this is a Prophet, whom we honor more than our mom....

I dont expect you to understand....we even respect Jesus and Moses and cant bad mouth or make cartoons of them because we are not allowed...

I admit killing was wrong...but have you not seen people kill because someone bad mouthed someone's mom or sis?

Have you not heard of anger when someone's sis or known friend is raped? I mean even whole of India cried for the Delhi rape cases...How many people got angry about it? Well, she was not even someone you knew....


Well, we are talking about A prophet whom we hold dear to us...Obviously a WHOLE UMMAH (Nation) sheds tears for this....

Shed tears all you want to, I am mature enough to NOT KILL someone for bad mouthing my mother. Islam's self aggrandizement does not mean that we shall pay it the same level of respect. Nor to Hinduism or Christianity or Judaism, ever opened an American channel? Every 5 minutes someone makes fun of Judaism and even the holocaust- ever heard of an American Jew kill someone for it? Your sense of devotion is not mine and never shall be, I can respect your RIGHT TO FOLLOW WHICHEVER RELIGION YOU CHOOSE TO but not the religion itself, Just like your right is ABSOLUTE so was the Cartoonist's right to express himself no matter who it offended- JUST AS THE RIGHT TO LIFE IS ABSOLUTE. The ummah can either grow up and understand that for many- even religious people religion is not the be all and end all of our lives- or keep rioting at every small "insult" like the RSS AND VHP fellows here in my country.

 

[Audio]

So democratic is flushed down the drain? Look up the meaning of democratic

It is democratic, the government of the majority of the people decided it.

In short on few people Actually support such silly laws...Plus it is against their own freedom to impose such stuff...I have no prob with banning niqab...But Ordering someone to dress or not dress in a certain WHILE DECLARING freedom of religion is a hypocrisy! I am only talking about the hypocrisy!!

You keep confusing, at this point i think on purpose, two different things. Namely, government has the right to choose the attire of their employees, same as restaurants and airlines do and a bunch of other businesses. Just like how you are expected to wear a lab coat in your lab.

Second, noone is preventing you from wearing a scarf over your hair. In public too, just don't wear it on the job if that job is government paid.

As for the links, who cares what HRW or for that matter the US says. Their opinion holds no merit. HRW is a tool and the US, well, they ain't no bastion of human rights-hint extrajudicial detention etc. And it's lip service anyway.

----------------------------------------


To summarize:

If you are government employed they HAVE the right to choose what you wear as you are a representative of them while working.
If you are a private citizen you can walk around in scarfs in the middle of the summer if you wish.

If you are a government employee the law has provisions in place for the faithful to wear their smaller tokens on the job. And when you clock out of your government job you are free to put a scarf on, just like a private citizen.

What is still unclear?

 

[Dubious]

You can look up any dictionary and oblige.

@Vinod2070 ok let me get meanings of each of the words you mentioned....

secularism, democracy, freedom of conscience of the individual, liberty, freedom of thought etc.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...arts-ban-full-face-veil-70.html#ixzz2PhGpeqMt

secularism

is the principle of separation of government institutions, and the persons mandated to represent the State, from religious institutions and religious dignitaries.

It just separates the 2...Nowhere does it say oppress the religion to fit the state as both are 2 different things ....so why AT STATE LEVEL are they interfering religion?

Democracy

is a form of government in which all eligible citizens have an equal say in the decisions that affect their lives. Democracy allows eligible citizens to participate equally—either directly or through elected representatives—in the proposal, development, and creation of laws

Are Muslims not eligible citizens? Why dont they have equal say as Islam affects THEIR LIVES....


freedom of conscience of the individual

Freedom of thought (also called the freedom of conscience or ideas) is the freedom of an individual to hold or consider a fact, viewpoint, or thought, independent of others' viewpoints.

Well, you would be surprised as to how many ACTUALLY take up the veil themselves while how many others cover up due to the cold weather or the dust ....cover up is covering up....So, what about this group? Where in democracy do they fall?

It is democratic, the government of the majority of the people decided it.

You keep confusing, at this point i think on purpose, two different things. Namely, government has the right to choose the attire of their employees, same as restaurants and airlines do and a bunch of other businesses. Just like how you are expected to wear a lab coat in your lab.

Second, noone is preventing you from wearing a scarf over your hair. In public too, just don't wear it on the job if that job is government paid.

As for the links, who cares what HRW or for that matter the US says. Their opinion holds no merit. HRW is a tool and the US, well, they ain't no bastion of human rights-hint extrajudicial detention etc.

---------------------------------------- @Audio Ok...sooo....the majority case thing...well, then the same case with Saudi and Pakistan....Tell this to the Indians who cry about our minorities....YOU just proved my point that KSA and Pakistan long achieved this...

To summarize:

If you are government employed they HAVE the right to choose what you wear as you are a representative of them while working.
If you are a private citizen you can walk around in scarfs in the middle of the summer if you wish.

If you are a government employee the law has provisions in place for the faithful to wear their smaller tokens on the job. And when you clock out of your government job you are free to put a scarf on, just like a private citizen.

What is still unclear?

@Audio So, according to you, when you enter KSA you shouldnt cry why they want your ladies covered....

 

[Dubious]

Shed tears all you want to, I am mature enough to NOT KILL someone for bad mouthing my mother. Islam's self aggrandizement does not mean that we shall pay it the same level of respect. Nor to Hinduism or Christianity or Judaism, ever opened an American channel? Every 5 minutes someone makes fun of Judaism and even the holocaust- ever heard of an American Jew kill someone for it? Your sense of devotion is not mine and never shall be, I can respect your RIGHT TO FOLLOW WHICHEVER RELIGION YOU CHOOSE TO but not the religion itself, Just like your right is ABSOLUTE so was the Cartoonist's right to express himself no matter who it offended- JUST AS THE RIGHT TO LIFE IS ABSOLUTE. The ummah can either grow up and understand that for many- even religious people religion is not the be all and end all of our lives- or keep rioting at every small "insult" like the RSS AND VHP fellows here in my country.

@Dillinger There is a limit to everything and there is a limit to freedom as @Audio has shown even after crying Europe has freedom, the people cant even choose what to wear and what not to when they work for the govt...

With freedom comes responsibilities...The cartoonist was not oblivious as to what he was doing.....He knew Exactly what he was doing...

 

[illusion8]

Their country their rules, if the majority have ratified the rule then it's their prerogative.

 

[Dubious]

I live in Europe, I go to work covered no one has any problem with it......My sis lives in UK, she teaches in a govt collage and goes to work covered....no one has a prob with it....My cousin in law lives in USA she goes to work covered, no one has a prob with that...

I am not sure where these problematic people come in....

Their country their rules.

@illusion8 then you should swallow Pakistani and KSA rules too...their country their rules...But the way you debate about them....shows you do not swallow that...Yet when it comes to the West it is their country their rules?

sorry @Pboy i needed to mention you in 1 of the posts as I do not know much about the cases in Norway....

 

[Alpha1]

Their country their rules, if the majority have ratified the rule then it's their prerogative.

next time please dont complain about why Saudi's have harsh rules

 

[Contrarian]

then you should swallow Pakistani and KSA rules too...their country their rules...But the way you debate about them....shows you do not swallow that...Yet when it comes to the West it is their country their rules?

sorry @Pboy i needed to mention you in 1 of the posts as I do not know much about the cases in Norway....

Simple thing Talon. Whether we like them or not. Indians respect Saudi rules as well. I dont hear Pakistani's complaining about Saudi rules where women are treated as a man's property.

Why the cry over this then?

 

[Vinod2070]

@Vinod2070 ok let me get meanings of each of the words you mentioned....

Thanks.

secularism

It just separates the 2...Nowhere does it say oppress the religion to fit the state as both are 2 different things ....so why AT STATE LEVEL are they interfering religion?

The meaning of these words change as per context. In Indian context, it means respect for all religions. It has actually now come to mean anyone who is anti BJP.

In the context of France, for historical reasons, they have a strong suspicion of overt display of religious symbols.

Democracy

Are Muslims not eligible citizens? Why dont they have equal say as Islam affects THEIR LIVES....

They are. Equal citizens.

Not more equal. They should adapt themselves to local culture and not expect the reverse from the host society.

freedom of conscience of the individual Well, you would be surprised as to how many ACTUALLY take up the veil themselves while how many others cover up due to the cold weather or the dust ....cover up is covering up....So, what about this group? Where in democracy do they fall?

Well, I think there are supposedly just 300 odd women who are impacted by this.

Why make it such a big issue? All that you mention can still be achieved by other means.

 

[Dubious]

Simple thing Talon. Whether we like them or not. Indians respect Saudi rules as well. I dont hear Pakistani's complaining about Saudi rules where women are treated as a man's property.

Why the cry over this then?

@Contrarian read all my posts and you will get your answer....summary: Because in every debate the West is set as an example of Freedom....WE do not brag about freedom....so where there is freedom seems equal to Saudi ...meaning Saudi is actually applying Western freedom

 

[illusion8]

I live in Europe, I go to work covered no one has any problem with it......My sis lives in UK, she teaches in a govt collage and goes to work covered....no one has a prob with it....My cousin in law lives in USA she goes to work covered, no one has a prob with that...

I am not sure where these problematic people come in....


@illusion8 then you should swallow Pakistani and KSA rules too...their country their rules...But the way you debate about them....shows you do not swallow that...Yet when it comes to the West it is their country their rules?

sorry @Pboy i needed to mention you in 1 of the posts as I do not know much about the cases in Norway....

next time please dont complain about why Saudi's have harsh rules

Of course!!, why would I disagree with Pakistan's or KSA's laws?
@Talon, I don't remember debating about Pakistan's laws - some people have reservations about Pakistan's blasphemy laws and I don't agree with it too - but then it's your country your laws.

 

[Audio]

Ok...sooo....the majority case thing...well, then the same case with Saudi and Pakistan....Tell this to the Indians who cry about our minorities....YOU just proved my point that KSA and Pakistan long achieved this...

Why do you bring this in? I'm not HRW, i dont care what they report. It a fallacy of an argument anyway.
You have been proven wrong in my previous posts. Government only takes the clothing freedom away when the person works for the government and leaves provisions for display of religious affection on a smaller scale. Other employers have clothing regulations as well. Stop trolling, please.

So, according to you, when you enter KSA you shouldnt cry why they want your ladies covered....

My family (mom, dad and kid bro) are going to Dubai in a few days for a holiday. She bought a nice leopard skin themed scarf for herself and for my bro she insisted he does not take flip-flops as they are forbidden in some fancy hotel that they are going to. And i wasn't crying....

 

[Dillinger]

@Dillinger There is a limit to everything and there is a limit to freedom as @Audio has shown even after crying Europe has freedom, the people cant even choose what to wear and what not to when they work for the govt...

With freedom comes responsibilities...The cartoonist was not oblivious as to what he was doing.....He knew Exactly what he was doing...

Unhunh, the cartoonist should have just not done what he did because the ummah would get him, sure thing.

AND so Muslims killed him, I guess then everyone has the right to kill anyone who offends their precious religion, god or gods. Maybe some people take offense to being called a kaffir and will stab the guy who uses that word, or wait I may not like people calling themselves hinduwaadis and will go on a rampage. Well, your're welcome to that view, I'd rather have mine where I can criticize up to the point of offending. Shows exactly how mature and comfortable in their own religion's message a community is when its adherents can't even take an "insult" without shedding blood. Oh he insulted Goddess Sita, oh my- woe be me the world shall come down on our heads- KILL HIM! Pity.

Anyway the law of the land is the law of the land, at least France doesn't have the death punishment for wearing the niqab unlike in Pakistan where in dejure terms blasphemy is punishable by death- although I've heard its not often awarded and is replaced by imprisonment- that is if a mob doesn't get to the blasphemer first.

Well by Pakistan's legal standards I am a blasphemer and I am well off that way. I believe we have reached an impasse, so to each his/her own.

 

[Contrarian]

@Contrarian read all my posts and you will get your answer....summary: Because in every debate the West is set as an example of Freedom....WE do not brag about freedom....so where there is freedom seems equal to Saudi ...meaning Saudi is actually applying Western freedom

The West talks of freedom to choose the laws - democracy.
What the democracy delivers is upto them then. The west crows about giving voice to the people.

And France is a democracy. If the people of France - for whom the Government of France exists - want to say No to veils, then that is what will and should happen rightfully.

 

[Alpha1]

@Dillinger kafir means a non believer only sumone who doesnt know would take offence