France offers EUR 1 billion to revive India's combat jet engine project

[neem456]

We dont need money, we need a assurance about working world class engine that can power tejax mk1

 

[Stephen Cohen]

This is absolutely wonderful news

What it also means is that our efforts in Kaveri have been 70 PERCENT successful

The knowledge and experience gained by our engineers in Kaveri
would not go waste

In fact it would now be enhanced and be taken to its
logical conclusion

 

[MilSpec]

Interesting ......25 to 30% work is needed, and Safran will spend the money. What then, for every LCA inducted, we will buy the engine from the Safran-Gtre JV, with 50 % of the money going to Safran. So eventually Safran will cut into GE 414, which may not be a bad deal either.

What would indeed be wonderful deal, is if Safran and dassault agrees on the feasibility studies in making this as a common engine for both Rafale, LCAmk2 and AMCA, then it would be a game changer. Then it makes perfect sense to look at local mfg of Rafale as the prime platform. Combined we would be looking a 700-800 engines.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Its always a very good development..

If offsets is Euro 3Bn then @50% offset the deal is at Euro 6Bn excluding weapons package or $6.6 Bn. Throw in weapons package of only meteors and Storm shadow (as mica is already there), all inclusive is in line with what i said earlier $7.5 Bn in Rafale sticky thread. Of course we have to wait for more confirmation.

But Euro 3 Bn or $3.3 Bn out of which manufacturing line may take around Euro 2 Bn max leaves surely a good place to invest the rest of the amount. By targeting Kaveri engine and if the credible offset implementation leads to it powering LCA Mk1A, that would be a humongous achievement and biggest form of assistance.

i said DM MP wants Rafale deal and has told Trappier to take 5 tranches in MII but sweeten the deal a bit more (in Rafale sticky).

https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-263#post-8416070

In the words of @zebra7 , who had always emphasized a thumb rule of tried and tested engines on the frontline fighters over untested ones, this may open up our path to credible achievement in Engine tech. First in a flying test bed, then may be one engine of Mig 29s and then once all tests are proper , fit into LCA Mk1A test aircraft. It will be a step by step progression.. May be it may not fit in first few LCA aircraft as well.. But we should use this opportunity and make it work to fit our frontline fighters and use it effectively. We should further uprate and build better variants for AMCA as well.

Ghatak program is not very surprising. I have always said in the sticky that NSA Ajit Doval had negotiated a lot of tech transfer from France. Including help in AMCA and transfer of Neuron tech into domestic Indian UCAV program.

Now is the time to understand whats really on offer.. from SSN tech to AIP tech to Neuron tech to engine tech to help in LCA to AMCA to a new ALCM to much more.. Haters can hate Rafale deal but assess it with other aircraft makers campaign and you can see the difference of how much France India relationship and Rafale deal is strategic in nature.

and here in sticky i said something like this

https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-133#post-8160587

I am looking to see only one result.. Even though i may sound optimist but i would like our AMCA to be powered by a variant of Kaveri only. If we successfully execute this, the less dependence on GE 414 and Ge404 ones, will make us less dependent on USA and will infact help us negotiate and get better tech in other critical fields.

Its a long shot, but we can do it surely. Now its upto GOI and DM to make things happen with suitable selections and approval. I sincerely hope now we move ahead for the MII part and take it forward for a more fruitful conclusion.

 

[sathya]

This is absolutely wonderful news

What it also means is that our efforts in Kaveri have been 70 PERCENT successful

The knowledge and experience gained by our engineers in Kaveri
would not go waste

In fact it would now be enhanced and be taken to its
logical conclusion

i guess it means we need 30% more to the proposed help ie Echo core

i suspect French are going to part engine tech in Rafale MII, and
to kill off F18 efforts of dangling GE414 carrot for mk2 lca so that Rafale deal will progress to its full potential..

 

[migflug]

Its always a very good development..

If offsets is Euro 3Bn then @50% offset the deal is at Euro 6Bn excluding weapons package or $6.6 Bn. Throw in weapons package of only meteors and Storm shadow (as mica is already there), all inclusive is in line with what i said earlier $7.5 Bn in Rafale sticky thread. Of course we have to wait for more confirmation.

But Euro 3 Bn or $3.3 Bn out of which manufacturing line may take around Euro 2 Bn max leaves surely a good place to invest the rest of the amount. By targeting Kaveri engine and if the credible offset implementation leads to it powering LCA Mk1A, that would be a humongous achievement and biggest form of assistance.

i said DM MP wants Rafale deal and has told Trappier to take 5 tranches in MII but sweeten the deal a bit more (in Rafale sticky).
View attachment 315593
https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-263#post-8416070

In the words of @zebra7 , who had always emphasized a thumb rule of tried and tested engines on the frontline fighters over untested ones, this may open up our path to credible achievement in Engine tech. First in a flying test bed, then may be one engine of Mig 29s and then once all tests are proper , fit into LCA Mk1A test aircraft. It will be a step by step progression.. May be it may not fit in first few LCA aircraft as well.. But we should use this opportunity and make it work to fit our frontline fighters and use it effectively. We should further uprate and build better variants for AMCA as well.

Ghatak program is not very surprising. I have always said in the sticky that NSA Ajit Doval had negotiated a lot of tech transfer from France. Including help in AMCA and transfer of Neuron tech into domestic Indian UCAV program.

Now is the time to understand whats really on offer.. from SSN tech to AIP tech to Neuron tech to engine tech to help in LCA to AMCA to a new ALCM to much more.. Haters can hate Rafale deal but assess it with other aircraft makers campaign and you can see the difference of how much France India relationship and Rafale deal is strategic in nature.

and here in sticky i said something like this
View attachment 315592

https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-133#post-8160587

I am looking to see only one result.. Even though i may sound optimist but i would like our AMCA to be powered by a variant of Kaveri only. If we successfully execute this, the less dependence on GE 414 and Ge404 ones, will make us less dependent on USA and will infact help us negotiate and get better tech in other critical fields.

Its a long shot, but we can do it surely. Now its upto GOI and DM to make things happen with suitable selections and approval. I sincerely hope now we move ahead for the MII part and take it forward for a more fruitful conclusion.

Will gtre retain the IP. They might give us m88 tech under the veil of Kaveri and then claim it as their engine. Also I would love for engine commonality between Tejas mk1a and Rafale. same upgraded engine could be used in Rafael also(as you have earlier said next phase raffle will have 7-10% higher wet thrust than original 75kn). Is it possible for m88-k9/k10 to power amca(at 110-120kn)?. It would be a delight to watch at least engine commonality between our fighters

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Will gtre retain the IP. They might give us m88 tech under the veil of Kaveri and then claim it as their engine. Also I would love for engine commonality between Tejas mk1a and Rafale. same upgraded engine could be used in Rafael also(as you have earlier said next phase raffle will have 7-10% higher wet thrust than original 75kn). Is it possible for m88-k9/k10 to power amca(at 110-120kn)?. It would be a delight to watch at least engine commonality between our fighters

Its a long shot but you know M88 family has designs upto 11 Tn engines or around 110 Kn thrust.. @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay @BON PLAN can say about that..

What is interesting is , we can also have further evolution of Kaveri program once we successfully power it up and make it reliable enough for LCA. We can then look at uprated engine family and build one to power our AMCA.

Of course questions may be asked that in past Snecma did not help much in Kaveri program. But perhaps now with a much stringent offset implementation and other conditionalities as well as competition from USA/GE , this time there is a much lesser chance of goof up or making a false promise.

One must understand that Boeing and GE deal of F18 and GE414 with Saab Gripen E is always trying to talk on Engine tech transfer. So its a good way to kill all competition..

To look forward, we need to see how much metallurgical help, hot engine tech and other important parts are shared. Perhaps a portion of M88-2 can be of great help.

It would be interesting if Kaveri is also turned into a much better modular design and far more maintenance friendly as Snecma engines are. That will be an immense help and will help our LCA and other programs much more.

But we have to wait a bit more to see real actions when GOI and DM takes a final call..

 

[BON PLAN]

Its a long shot but you know M88 family has designs upto 11 Tn engines or around 110 Kn thrust.. @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay @BON PLAN can say about that..

What is interesting is , we can also have further evolution of Kaveri program once we successfully power it up and make it reliable enough for LCA. We can then look at uprated engine family and build one to power our AMCA.

Of course questions may be asked that in past Snecma did not help much in Kaveri program. But perhaps now with a much stringent offset implementation and other conditionalities as well as competition from USA/GE , this time there is a much lesser chance of goof up or making a false promise.

One must understand that Boeing and GE deal of F18 and GE414 with Saab Gripen E is always trying to talk on Engine tech transfer. So its a good way to kill all competition..

To look forward, we need to see how much metallurgical help, hot engine tech and other important parts are shared. Perhaps a portion of M88-2 can be of great help.

It would be interesting if Kaveri is also turned into a much better modular design and far more maintenance friendly as Snecma engines are. That will be an immense help and will help our LCA and other programs much more.

But we have to wait a bit more to see real actions when GOI and DM takes a final call..

From the beginning, M88 is a familly, covering from 7.5T to 11.5 tons (with after burner).
already studied and used or tested on a bench :
M88-2 = 7.5 tons (and maybe a little bit more... M88 for Qatar planes seem to be 8.3 tons ...)
M88-3 = 9 tons. Studied for UAE in the past.

 

[migflug]

From the beginning, M88 is a familly, covering from 7.5T to 11.5 tons (with after burner).
already studied and used or tested on a bench :
M88-2 = 7.5 tons (and maybe a little bit more... M88 for Qatar planes seem to be 8.3 tons ...)
M88-3 = 9 tons. Studied for UAE in the past.

which one is 11.5. its relatively easy to uprate the engine from 7.5 ton 9, but i dont know if you have 11.5 ton engine in m88 family.i guess adding one more stage will do the job.aq to wiki same core can be used for 10.5 ton engine.
But if 11.5 ton engine is developed, it will be a leading engine in our AMCA.

 

[Grevion]

How much increase in thrust are we looking at with the French help?
Hopefully this materialize soon and we have Kaveri powering most of the IAF fleet in the future.

 

[fsayed]

How much increase in thrust are we looking at with the French help?
Hopefully this materialize soon and we have Kaveri powering most of the IAF fleet in the future.

current “In recent times, the engine has been able to produce thrust of 82 Kilo Newton but what the IAF and other stake-holders desire is power between 90—95 KN

Dry weight: 2,724 lb (1,235 kg) [Goal: 2,100-2450 lb (950-1100 kg)]

 

[Grevion]

current “In recent times, the engine has been able to produce thrust of 82 Kilo Newton but what the IAF and other stake-holders desire is power between 90—95 KN

Dry weight: 2,724 lb (1,235 kg) [Goal: 2,100-2450 lb (950-1100 kg)]

If French can help us to increase the thrust to 100-105 kn with no increase in weight then it will be beneficial for us in both LCA and the AMCA project.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@Abingdonboy
This is the place for you.. You remember how we have talked that AMCA can borrow a lot from Rafale and Rafale NG.. I also said if you remember we should use engines from Snecma for commonality and build on that.. Looks like baby steps but finally things are getting revealed...

Now i am interested further in one more thing - Spectra and its NG upgrades... I am sure if emissions level as it was told that india will share to fill up the database, if the same Spectra can come to our LCA class of fighters and upgraded NG version comes to AMCA, then it would be the icing in the cake..

Of course i am asking something steep but then with a humongous order we should be able to get it..

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

I think they are being really sneaky and offered this so that they could share less Rafale tech. Instead of spending the full offset proceeds on Rafale related technology they will be diverting 1/3 of the funds on an engine development project to be carried out by one of their own firms.

Again, what's the use? This deal , if happens, is totally de-linked from Rafale. No govt in any position will accept linking of this deal with Rafale. And why do they want to invest in Kaveri, when they have their own engines.

First 140 Tejas will be powered by GE engines and agreements have been signed. So I do not see Kaveri in Tejas for forseebale future. Kaveri as a engine is not a complete failure as it had already test flown in IL76 platform, but it has problems to make it trustworthy.

Tomo if the French decides to make 5th gen fighter, they will need a new engine. Its better they invest the money for such an engine in Kaveri, for which both India and France will benefit. Win-win.

 

[BON PLAN]

Tomo if the French decides to make 5th gen fighter, they will need a new engine. Its better they invest the money for such an engine in Kaveri, for which both India and France will benefit. Win-win.

I agree. India is a nice partner for France.