Foreign training for NSG to improve preparedness

[Abingdonboy]

NSG is a national level CT force not a local police SWAT team, today the NSG is structured as a local swat. FBI's HRT has only 300 personals, nsg has 15,000. HRT 's budget is 800 million/year and nsg's budget is approximately $800 million/year for 15,000 personals!!!!

using c-130j for transporting NSG is only cheep show for the public(a plane with turboprop engine is slower than a plane with turbofan engine). the max speed of c-130j is about 650km/h for il-76 it is 900km/h. with only a low budget the quality of the force is going to be affect. the personals who are selected for NSG's SAG can only serve the unit only 3 years, means the commandos in the ground are not much experienced. nsg is headed by an ips officer who don't even has basic military training. NSG's helmet is not built for supporting any NVGs or IR lights. NSG don't have a mobile command and control center for better intelligence sharing. NSG can be transported by a civilian 737 airline which is faster than c-130j in 26/11 they waited for a military plane to came and transport them insted of using a 737 civilian plane which was available at that time.

A C-130J is a cargo a/c that is dedicated for SOF ops in India as such a few are kept on constant alert for Indian SOF ops. Given Hindon's proximity to IGI it is only logical it would be utilised for the NSG. You're forgetting the NSG CT task force in Delhi travels with A LOT of cargo/equipment and are a self contained unit for all intensive purposes. They travel with weapons, vehicles, supplies etc as such you're going to need a cargo a/c and thus the C-130J fits the bill. Of course with 10 C-17s deployed at Hindon also with guaranteed 85% availability then they could be used to airlift the NSG also.


The 15,000 personel figure is a bit irrelevant as the SAG (the actual shooters) only number in the high hundreds or maybe around 1000-1500.

But this deputation process of the NSG had certain drawbacks but certain inherent advantages. So it's a case of swings and roundabouts.

 

[hkdas]

Above all to reduce the loss of human life in terms of guests as much as possible. If It is on me, I will not accept a 12 hour operation instead of 50 hours, If there is a chance of saving one more life in the 50 hour long operation. The security force's primery duty is to secure human life as much as possible while preserving their own life and not to score points by concluding the operation in short time.

In case of Taz Hotel, due to the large size of hotel compound and complexity of operation, the operation has to take more time to conclude. Combat skills of NSG Commandosl are good enought, Only the highly advanced tech gear could have reduced the operation time significantly.

we can support NSG by saying these kind of excuses, but we have to accept the fact. in 26/11 there are more than 200 commandos from SAG and there are more than 100 commandos from SRG of NSG. if you see the news video of 26/11 you can see nsg commandos are even deployed in the road. in the operation nsg is enter the hotels from top floor and ground floor. if they use the windows and balcony door then they can finish the operation much faster.

in a hostage rescue time is critical, faster you finish the operations lesser the causality. in 26/11 the terrorists are shooting the civilians and the commandos took 50 hours to finish the operation. in a CT ops the CT forces use multiple entry, in 26/11 nsg use only to way-from the roof and from the ground floor. the windows are used by fire rescue personals for evacuating the hostages.

for any CT ops they must maintain 3 things:
1)surprise
2)speed
3)violence of action.

 

[hkdas]

A C-130J is a cargo a/c that is dedicated for SOF ops in India as such a few are kept on constant alert for Indian SOF ops. Given Hindon's proximity to IGI it is only logical it would be utilised for the NSG. You're forgetting the NSG CT task force in Delhi travels with A LOT of cargo/equipment and are a self contained unit for all intensive purposes. They travel with weapons, vehicles, supplies etc as such you're going to need a cargo a/c and thus the C-130J fits the bill. Of course with 10 C-17s deployed at Hindon also with guaranteed 85% availability then they could be used to airlift the NSG also.


The 15,000 personel figure is a bit irrelevant as the SAG (the actual shooters) only number in the high hundreds or maybe around 1000-1500.

But this deputation process of the NSG had certain drawbacks but certain inherent advantages. So it's a case of swings and roundabouts.

during 26/11 attack the NSG used two kind of vehicles for transporting the commandos form Mumbai airport to the hotels

1) civilian bus of Mumbai road transport and
2) an IAF helicopter.

NSG doesn't need a dedicated Special Operating aircraft for these kind operations. they don't even need military transport plane. a civilian airplane is enough for their transport.
nato used civilian airlines to transport solders from Europe/us to Afghanistan.

 

[janon]

we can support NSG by saying these kind of excuses, but we have to accept the fact. in 26/11 there are more than 200 commandos from SAG and there are more than 100 commandos from SRG of NSG. if you see the news video of 26/11 you can see nsg commandos are even deployed in the road. in the operation nsg is enter the hotels from top floor and ground floor. if they use the windows and balcony door then they can finish the operation much faster.

in a hostage rescue time is critical, faster you finish the operations lesser the causality. in 26/11 the terrorists are shooting the civilians and the commandos took 50 hours to finish the operation. in a CT ops the CT forces use multiple entry, in 26/11 nsg use only to way-from the roof and from the ground floor. the windows are used by fire rescue personals for evacuating the hostages.

You have to realize that despite a military assault being launched on such a highly congested and populated city like Mumbai, the total casualties was only 186. That is 186 too many, but I would still say that it was a good show by all the forces concerned.

Five different points of the city were simultaneously attacked by pairs of highly trained and highly armed commandoes, highly mobile, carrying assault rifles and grenades. The CST station, one of the points of the attack, sees something like two thousand passengers going in and out EVERY MINUTE. Despite attacking such vulnerable and soft targets with military grade weapons, with each terrorist giving cover to the other and moving in tactical fashion, overall the number of people they killed in that city of 12 million people was 186. When terrorists took a school hostage in the tiny town of Beslan in Russia, the event lasted a few days, and over 325 kids and their parents were killed, despite all sorts of spetznaz units trying to rescue them.

Could the MARCOS and NSG have fired a few RPGs into the hotels and terminated the terrorists? Sure. But then we would be criticizing them for heavy civilian casualties. On the other hand, the MARCOS and NSG painstakingly cleared the buildings of hostages, using minimal force, before killing the terrorists and sanitizing the place. Yes, they took 50 hours, but they saved 500+ lives in the hotels alone. Well worth it.

As a poster above suggested, stop concentrating on the time taken, and measuring success and failure by that yardstick. What is more important is how many lives were lost or saved. If the operation took only 2 hours, but 300 hostages died, would you have felt better? Yes, Pakistanis on this forum can use the 50 hour figure to laugh at India or mock our forces. But if that causes heartburn, think again. The forces (all of them) did a magnificent job, given what they were up against.

Sure, we can watch endless videos on youtue and nitpick tactics, talk about whether they should have entered from the roof or the window and so on endlessly. No operation is perfect, and with hindsight we could find out better ways to have done it. But would anybody else have done a better job at that time? Remember, they went in with scant info, and had not spent a lot of time watching videos of right ways and wrong ways to do what they were about to do.

I will repeat - a city of 12 million was attacked with military grade weapons by terrorists trained by commandoes and special forces, and yet the total toll in terms of human lives was only 186 in the whole city. Railway stations with thousands of people, hotels with hundreds of rooms and hundreds of people were all attacked, and yet the total toll was only 186. Instead of repeating the 50 hour figure, repeat this. And then you will be grateful that a few good men (all the forces) did what they did.

 

[hkdas]

You have to realize that despite a military assault being launched on such a highly congested and populated city like Mumbai, the total casualties was only 186. That is 186 too many, but I would still say that it was a good show by all the forces concerned.

Five different points of the city were simultaneously attacked by pairs of highly trained and highly armed commandoes, highly mobile, carrying assault rifles and grenades. The CST station, one of the points of the attack, sees something like two thousand passengers going in and out EVERY MINUTE. Despite attacking such vulnerable and soft targets with military grade weapons, with each terrorist giving cover to the other and moving in tactical fashion, overall the number of people they killed in that city of 12 million people was 186. When terrorists took a school hostage in the tiny town of Beslan in Russia, the event lasted a few days, and over 325 kids and their parents were killed, despite all sorts of spetznaz units trying to rescue them.

Could the MARCOS and NSG have fired a few RPGs into the hotels and terminated the terrorists? Sure. But then we would be criticizing them for heavy civilian casualties. On the other hand, the MARCOS and NSG painstakingly cleared the buildings of hostages, using minimal force, before killing the terrorists and sanitizing the place. Yes, they took 50 hours, but they saved 500+ lives in the hotels alone. Well worth it.

As a poster above suggested, stop concentrating on the time taken, and measuring success and failure by that yardstick. What is more important is how many lives were lost or saved. If the operation took only 2 hours, but 300 hostages died, would you have felt better? Yes, Pakistanis on this forum can use the 50 hour figure to laugh at India or mock our forces. But if that causes heartburn, think again. The forces (all of them) did a magnificent job, given what they were up against.

Sure, we can watch endless videos on youtue and nitpick tactics, talk about whether they should have entered from the roof or the window and so on endlessly. No operation is perfect, and with hindsight we could find out better ways to have done it. But would anybody else have done a better job at that time? Remember, they went in with scant info, and had not spent a lot of time watching videos of right ways and wrong ways to do what they were about to do.

I will repeat - a city of 12 million was attacked with military grade weapons by terrorists trained by commandoes and special forces, and yet the total toll in terms of human lives was only 186 in the whole city. Railway stations with thousands of people, hotels with hundreds of rooms and hundreds of people were all attacked, and yet the total toll was only 186. Instead of repeating the 50 hour figure, repeat this. And then you will be grateful that a few good men (all the forces) did what they did.

For the commandos deployed in the taj don't need to know what is happening in the mumbai city. spetznazs' s was not a good CT forces. they have poor record of HR, but now they had changed a lot, their training has considerably improved.
bro, there are 3 rules for cqb:- surprise, speed and violence of action in 26/11 nsg and marcos was not good at any of these rules.

 

[janon]

For the commandos deployed in the taj don't need to know what is happening in the mumbai city. spetznazs' s was not a good CT forces. they have poor record of HR, but now they had changed a lot, their training has considerably improved.
bro, there are 3 rules for cqb:- surprise, speed and violence of action in 26/11 nsg and marcos was not good at any of these rules.

But they were good at saving people. How many hostages were present in the hotels, how many rooms and floors, and how many were killed? The MARCOS themselves evacuated more than 500 people from the hotels, while successfully pinning down the terrorists.

These were not even terrorists who planned to take hostages and negotiate for something - they came to kill only. Every guest in the hotel would have been killed if they were not evacuated. But evacuated they were. At least, the vast majority of them were.

 

[hkdas]

But they were good at saving people. How many hostages were present in the hotels, how many rooms and floors, and how many were killed? The MARCOS themselves evacuated more than 500 people from the hotels, while successfully pinning down the terrorists.

These were not even terrorists who planned to take hostages and negotiate for something - they came to kill only. Every guest in the hotel would have been killed if they were not evacuated. But evacuated they were. At least, the vast majority of them were.

the terrorist take many people as hostages. yes marcos/nsg had done a great job. but they could do this even better with less causality and finish the operations much faster if they are trained/equiped better than this.

 

[janon]

the terrorist take many people as hostages. yes marcos/nsg had done a great job. but they could do this even better with less causality and finish the operations much faster.

Hindsight is always 20/20.

If another such attack happens, chances are that the next operation by security forces will also have a few mistakes here and there. There is no such thing as a perfect operation.

The sheer number of people they rescued in these hotels from those rabid terrorists speaks for itself, as a testament to the good work they did. Time taken is not as important in judging their work, but lives saved is. That was their mission as well - to save as many people as possible, and kill the terrorists - not simply to kill the terrorists as quickly as possible with no other concern.

 

[kinsr]

When we discuss 26/11 and the delays in action, did it ever occur to anyone that GoI may have deliberately delayed the overall operation in flushing out the terrorists. I strongly believe that the GoI was busy gathering the audio/cell phone communication between the terrorists and the handlers. Can you believe what kind of information that would have been if India could extract the names of the handlers and their location from the cell phone intercepts. Once it was evident that no more productive information can be extracted from intercepts, GoI gave a go ahead for complete flushing out of the terrorists. 50 hours for an operation like this is too high when the NSG could reach the spot in just a few hours of the incident. If you look at Nariman House, which was taken over by the terrorists on the 26th and the final assault by the NSG took place early in the morning of 29th September, thats good 2 days for just securing a building, and that operation only lasted less than 2 hours. This points out towards that either the GoI deliberately deffered the action or the NSG was laying a siege on the terrorists in order to catch them alive.
Other than that whole govt mechanism need a complete upgrade dealing with situations like these. Today we only talk of 26/11 as one the greatest attack on India, but nobody talks of the IC-814 hi-jack which had a far more reaching implications on India, where a total lack of co-ordination, judgment capabilities and will power was displayed. We haven't been able to device a policy of response for situations like those. However better you train and equip the NSG, without a clear cut policy in terms of response in case of such a situations, it will all be always useless.

 

[Abingdonboy]

during 26/11 attack the NSG used two kind of vehicles for transporting the commandos form Mumbai airport to the hotels

1) civilian bus of Mumbai road transport and
2) an IAF helicopter.

NSG doesn't need a dedicated Special Operating aircraft for these kind operations. they don't even need military transport plane. a civilian airplane is enough for their transport.
nato used civilian airlines to transport solders from Europe/us to Afghanistan.

The NSG travel with at least 2 vehicles now, an urban assualt vehicle (Sherpa) and a bomb disposal truck with a trailer, these NEED a cargo type a/c. Also you don't seem to understand the sheer amount of equipment/supplies take with them when they deploy (the main CT task force). The quickest way to load and unload them is on a military a/c with a ramp using pallets.

 

[hkdas]

Hindsight is always 20/20.

If another such attack happens, chances are that the next operation by security forces will also have a few mistakes here and there. There is no such thing as a perfect operation.

The sheer number of people they rescued in these hotels from those rabid terrorists speaks for itself, as a testament to the good work they did. Time taken is not as important in judging their work, but lives saved is. That was their mission as well - to save as many people as possible, and kill the terrorists - not simply to kill the terrorists as quickly as possible with no other concern.

in india a good operation will become a nightmare for the future for that force. in 1971 IA army performed well, and the political leaders conclude that the IA is well equipped and further modanisation had stopped. if NSG's in 26/11 was good then the defense budget will be reduced. and the special forces will get a blow by reducing their budget.

 

[hkdas]

The NSG travel with at least 2 vehicles now, an urban assualt vehicle (Sherpa) and a bomb disposal truck with a trailer, these NEED a cargo type a/c. Also you don't seem to understand the sheer amount of equipment/supplies take with them when they deploy (the main CT task force). The quickest way to load and unload them is on a military a/c with a ramp using pallets.

in future the nsg may be carry these equipment in vesicles which will be carried by a/c for faster mobilization. but using c-130 is not a good option, it had only a max speed of 650km/h. if they choose a il-76/c-17 will be a good choice. c-130 is designed for special operations behind enemy lines nsg doesn't need these kind of a/c as nsg's operation are within the country and have a good backup if something wrong happens. for nsg a need for the a/c is only to transport the commandos as soon as possible to the spot, no need for special mission a/c. and india have only 6+6 on order of c-130, so these a/c must be used only for military special forces, not for nsg.