For Indian war planners, is the PAF their worst fear?

[nitesh]

But where is the fact about increasing the range in "Brahmos II"? That is all I ask? Because the entire supposition that Brahmos II is for China was argued based on the fact that it will have an increased range. So just one question,

Are you saying Brahmos II in future (by whatever name it will be called, hopefully Brahmos III) will have more range?
or
Are you saying that Brahmos II has more range?

In either case, either the supposition to develop Brahmos II for China is wrong or you will have to provide the source for Brahmos II' increased range. (and not Brahmos III or any other Brahmos future version)

Regards,
Anoop.

Now there are two points:

1. Will BrahMos II have more range.

Answer is no confirmation from official sources on that but as it is getting developed in India which not a signatory of MTCR keeping such a deadly weapon limited to 300km will be not a good idea. The point to be noted is that new versions are not getting developed with the sole reason of reaching 300km distance at the least possible time.

2. Is BrahMos is the only weapon available to Indian armed forces against China?

I requested you previously to check the specs about shourya which travels in depressed trajectory (a kinda mixed of ballistic and cruise missile). at hypersonic speeds. Apart from that there are lot of options available so Let's not get over obsessed with one weapon.

 

[anoopsaxena76]

?. No yaar I don't think so. Please help me with some link

Tupolev Tu-95 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tupolev Tu-142 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Regards,
Anoop

 

[anoopsaxena76]

Now there are two points:

1. Will BrahMos II have more range.

Answer is no confirmation from official sources on that but as it is getting developed in India which not a signatory of MTCR keeping such a deadly weapon limited to 300km will be not a good idea. The point to be noted is that new versions are not getting developed with the sole reason of reaching 300km distance at the least possible time.

Well since there is no official confirmation, I would treat it as a conjecture at best.

2. Is BrahMos is the only weapon available to Indian armed forces against China?

I requested you previously to check the specs about shourya which travels in depressed trajectory (a kinda mixed of ballistic and cruise missile). at hypersonic speeds. Apart from that there are lot of options available so Let's not get over obsessed with one weapon.

I agree. But the point was specifically about Brahmos II and the intent of its development wrt China.

Regards,
Anoop

 

[nitesh]

Tupolev Tu-95 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tupolev Tu-142 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Regards,
Anoop

Please no wikipedia and I have already said In operated TU 142 for ASW duties.

 

[nitesh]

Well since there is no official confirmation, I would treat it as a conjecture at best.

Well it's your opinion and you are free to have that.

I agree. But the point was specifically about Brahmos II and the intent of its development wrt China.

Regards,
Anoop

Well It was malay's opinion no goivernment official has ever siad the BrhaMos II is getting developed specifically for China. Right?

 

[anoopsaxena76]

Please no wikipedia and I have already said In operated TU 142 for ASW duties.

And why do you not trust Wikipedia, if I may ask? I can easily provide you with another link.

But for that wikipedia has to be proved wrong first!!

In non-classified stuff, wikipedia is absolutely trustworthy. And for classified stuff, nothing is trustworthy.

It has become a fashion to say "no wikipedia please" but why not?


Second, on ASW stuff, it would be a pity to use a platform to deliver nuclear weapons to be used as an ASW platform.

Regards,
Anoop.

P.S. - BTW, I was not going by wikipedia when I had intially said that. I had gone by another defence site. When you asked me about it, only then I checked wiki to see if it says the same thing. And it did.

 

[anoopsaxena76]

Well it's your opinion and you are free to have that.

You yourself said there is no official statement on the range increase. There is however definitely an official statement on it's speed increase. So "fact of the matter" is that Brahmos II has the same range and more speed, as of now. Anything else is an opinion.

Well It was malay's opinion no goivernment official has ever siad the BrhaMos II is getting developed specifically for China. Right?

Yes, that is what I wanted to prove but you said, "what he is saying is right."

Regards,
Anoop

 

[nitesh]

And why do you not trust Wikipedia, if I may ask? I can easily provide you with another link.

But for that wikipedia has to be proved wrong first!!

In non-classified stuff, wikipedia is absolutely trustworthy. And for classified stuff, nothing is trustworthy.

It has become a fashion to say "no wikipedia please" but why not?


Second, on ASW stuff, it would be a pity to use a platform to deliver nuclear weapons to be used as an ASW platform.

Regards,
Anoop.

P.S. - BTW, I was not going by wikipedia when I had intially said that. I had gone by another defence site. When you asked me about it, only then I checked wiki to see if it says the same thing. And it did.

Wikipedia is a source which can be modified by almost any one hence I requested some other links. I know TU 142 are operated by IN so no need for them

Well regarding the pity statement unfortunately IN thinks that it is useful for that duty only. And why they need to use TU 142 for delivering nuclear weapons? MKI, Mirage can carry that apart from missiles. What is so special about them?

 

[Contrarian]

Anoop, if the engine is developed in India, MTCR does not apply. You tell me then why would the range be limited to 300kms of the present BrahMos?

 

[anoopsaxena76]

Wikipedia is a source which can be modified by almost any one hence I requested some other links. I know TU 142 are operated by IN so no need for them

Well regarding the pity statement unfortunately IN thinks that it is useful for that duty only. And why they need to use TU 142 for delivering nuclear weapons? MKI, Mirage can carry that apart from missiles. What is so special about them?

For your benefit, when I come back after lunch, I will change the Su-30MKI article on wiki to say it is a generation 5 fighter plane. Let's see what wiki does to my contribution then .. I know it is trustworthy because I contribute to it, not on defence related articles though.

On the darling Tupolovs I shall reply to this thread in a little more relaxed time, hopefully in the evening.

Regards,
Anoop.

 

[anoopsaxena76]

Anoop, if the engine is developed in India, MTCR does not apply. You tell me then why would the range be limited to 300kms of the present BrahMos?

Hi Malay,
1.) We may think it makes no sense to not increase the range (though it does make sense if I look at it in entirety.) but that can not be stated as a fact. The fact remains, there is no official word on it. And that is all I am trying to say.
2.) With my limited knowledge, since I am just an enthusiast and not a defence professional, all I can say is that the idea could be to do incremental development. First increase the speed and then the range. But that again is just my humble opinion.

Though I personally do not think that India would really be interested in increasing the range of Brahmos too much. And here I am just wild guessing. Granits is a much more mature technology and in my opinion India will one day just declare, out of the blue, that we have a 600km range Brahmos!!

I could be completely wrong here but it is just my opinion.

Regards,
Anoop.

 

[nitesh]

For your benefit, when I come back after lunch, I will change the Su-30MKI article on wiki to say it is a generation 5 fighter plane. Let's see what wiki does to my contribution then .. I know it is trustworthy because I contribute to it, not on defence related articles though.

On the darling Tupolovs I shall reply to this thread in a little more relaxed time, hopefully in the evening.

Regards,
Anoop.

Good that you contribute but I have my share of problems with that one time somebody changed the Prithavi page to say India is in possession of more than 10000 of it. Although restored after some time. Any source which can be altered anonymously can not be trusted.

 

[nitesh]

Anoop, just curious what makes you so firmly believe that the range of BrahMos 2 is no more then 300km? Is it just the name BrahMos or something else? Especially when there is no confirmation on the range portion. What makes you so firmly believe that the range can not be more then 300km

 

[anoopsaxena76]

Anoop, just curious what makes you so firmly believe that the range of BrahMos 2 is no more then 300km? Is it just the name BrahMos or something else? Especially when there is no confirmation on the range portion. What makes you so firmly believe that the range can not be more then 300km

Just the name Brahmos. I would not have answered it so simply but you picked the right answer for me ..

Actually more than that. Anything that is co-worked upon (at least on paper) like Brahmos between India and Russia, can not go for greater than 300 km due to MTCR. It does not matter whether the engine is Indian or not. Russia, as a MTCR member can not just work on it. So if you remove Russia from Brahmos (or you remove MOS from Brahmos ) then we can go ahead and give it whatever range we can.

So the range is an MTCR issue, whether or not we make the engine or whatever locally. It is the collaboration, that can not go against MTCR rules, which imposes the limit.

That is why I said, I would think that India, out of the blue, would say that we have a new missile with a range of, say, 600 kms.

I wanted to attach an old paper submitted to US Congress but could not attach it as it went beyond the limits allowed (MTCR . Here is the snippet from it..

"It is reported that Russia and India plan to market the Brahmos to supposedly “friendly”
countries in order to cover developmental and production costs. Russia (an MTCR
member) pledges to keep the missile’s range below the MTCR’s 300 km range threshold."

Regards,
Anoop

 

[Hasnain2009]

Oh guys 1st complete project Brahmos - I successfully then talk about Brahmos II and III, and plz stop bombing on this thread!!