Flight MH17 - What You're Not Being Told

[Götterdämmerung]

What does the above have to do with MH-17? Another post that contributes ... nothing.
Proven by a need to attack personally (my friends?)

Am not a friend of anyone who supports Nazis.

Your posts only contributes propaganda, it's futile to argue with you.

 

[Penguin]

Am not a friend of anyone who supports Nazis.

Your posts only contributes propaganda, it's futile to argue with you.

You are right that it is futile to argue with me, given that you haven't given any arguments, only inuendo. As for the rest, well, there is no reason not to be friends then (assuming I care to be your friend)

I repeat, I have not decided on a cause of MH-17 crashing yet. I am looking at the plausibility of a variety of explanations. Poor theories - whichever way - deserve to be exposed as such.

Appartenly you feel threatened or you wouldn't need to label my posts propaganda (which is a way of attacking the messenger because you don't like the message and can't deal with it).

 

[Götterdämmerung]

You are right that it is futile to argue with me, given that you haven't given any arguments, only inuendo. As for the rest, well, there is no reason not to be friends then (assuming I care to be your friend)

I never started to give you any argument for starter, because innuendo is what propaganda deserves.

Why even care to write (my friend) at all?

 

[Penguin]

Poor Penguin, so much lies and yet not many take this crap anyway.

You are. And it is people like you that destroy this forum.

 

[Götterdämmerung]

You are. And it is people like you that destroy this forum.

Nazi Propaganda destroys more than this forum. It destroys the world.

 

[Penguin]

Nazi Propaganda destroys more than this forum. It destroys the world.

Good thing there ain't any here. Which probably is also why you are hiding here.
Move along now.

 

[Götterdämmerung]

Good thing there ain't any here. Which probably is also why you are hiding here.
Move along now.

You don't even make sense in what you write. Good grief!

 

[Penguin]

You don't even make sense in what you write. Good grief!

Don't blame your own limits in comprehension on me.

 

[Götterdämmerung]

Don't blame your own limits in comprehension on me.

Blame it on your senseless jabbering.

 

[Beidou2020]

@WebMaster @Horus

This @Penguin member has clearly abused his privilege as a think tank and gives out negative ratings for every post of a person he argues with. This is not the caliber of individual that deserves to be given think tank status.

Please remove his status as a think tank.

Thankyou

 

[Chak Bamu]

@WebMaster @Horus

This @Penguin member has clearly abused his privilege as a think tank and gives out negative ratings for every post of a person he argues with. This is not the caliber of individual that deserves to be given think tank status.

Please remove his status as a think tank.

Thankyou

While I may disagree with negative ratings having been given by @Penguin , I should point out that he has been trolled and insulted for no good reason.

The person who has received negative ratings is free to approach WebMaster in the Management section. There is a thread specifically for dealing with negative ratings.

Insulting and trolling a forum member as can be seen is not tolerable. I do not see why you overlook this.

May I also add that I have left clearly abusive posts by @Götterdämmerung intact to give him a chance to take up the matter with WebMaster. If I delete them (as I should), the chance of reversing these ratings will be gone.

 

[notgoodenough]

So when will we heard the recordings from the fkight control towers? The unedited versions. When will ukraine explain why one or two of its fighter jets were meters away from the plane when it went down? When will ukraine admit to testing buk systems in the donetsk region on the very same day and time this plane was shot down? Why is the dutch report so purpofefully inconclusive? Why are they not following standard crash procedures? Why are they postponing the final report for a year from now?

Ahh. These idiot talking heads type and type but cant answer a few simple questions. Lying ball washing bastards

 

[Penguin]

21 Aug 2014
Questions and answers concerning the investigation into flight MH17
1. Why is an investigation necessary?
In the event of an aircraft accident, it is very important to conduct an investigation in order to clearly ascertain the cause. This will allow the surviving relatives, other parties involved and also the world to understand what happened based on a factual account. An investigation can also contribute to the safety of civilian (and other) aviation: recommendations are made whenever necessary to avoid similar incidents in the future.

The Dutch Safety Board believes that the MH17 crash should be the subject of an extensive and in-depth investigation. In addition to the (international) investigation into the cause of the crash, the decision-making process surrounding flightroutes and the availability of passenger lists will also be examined.

2. Why is the Dutch Safety Board leading the investigation?
Ukraine has transferred responsibility for investigating the cause of the crash to the Dutch Safety Board. The request came from Ukraine.

This request was made because the flight departed from the Netherlands, and due to the large number of Dutch nationals who died in the crash. The transfer was formally recorded in an agreement on 23 July.

3. Which countries are involved in the investigation and why?
The International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) states that it is the responsibility of the country where an aircraft accident took place to investigate the cause. Immediately following the crash of flight MH17, aviation investigators from Ukraine began investigating the cause of the accident. The Netherlands (as one of the countries affected) received official word of the crash of MH17 from the investigators shortly after it took place, including an invitation to take part in the investigation.

The ICAO agreement dictates that certain countries are obliged to be involved in the investigation. In principle, the country where the accident took place (state of occurance) should lead the investigation. However, the option is available to transfer the obligation of the investigation to another country. The countries where the operator is based, where the aircraft was designed and where it was built are also entitled to take part. Countries that can supply specific information or expertise may participate at the invitation of the party leading the investigation. Countries that suffered fatalities are also entitled to play a part in the investigation, but have limited rights.

In the case of the MH17 crash, many countries volunteered their assistance of their own accord. In some cases this assistance was accepted because the investigators had specific knowledge, information or expertise to offer.

The following countries have contributed (to a greater or lesser extent) to the international investigation team into the crash of flight MH17: Ukraine, Malaysia, Australia, Russia, the United Kingdom, the United States, Germany, France, Italy and Indonesia. The ICAO and the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) also contributed to the investigation as organisations. The leadership of the investigation rests with the Dutch Safety Board, which will publish both the preliminary and final report. The countries that have a formal role as participants in the investigation under the ICAO agreement will be given access to the draft reports, and may provide feedback. The country leading the investigation may offer other countries access to the draft reports at its discretion.

4. Is it possible to conduct an effective investigation if nobody has visited the crash site itself?
Although additional investigation at the crash site itself is preferable, it is not impossible to conduct an effective investigation based on other sources and to produce a definitive final report. Incidentally, on the days following the incident (when Ukraine was still leading the investigation), several Ukrainian aviation investigators visited the crash site briefly several times for investigative purposes.

Once a secure and stable situation has been established, the Dutch Safety Board will visit the location. This in order to verify the results of the investigation from other sources and to conduct a specific search for wreckage and other vital pieces.

5. Why has the Dutch Safety Board not yet visited the crash site?
The Dutch Safety Board was not abled to visit the crash site because the safety of the investigators could not be guaranteed. The Dutch government believes that people investigating the causes of the crash will be at greater risk than forensic investigators, next of kin or journalists. In this respect, the safety of others at the crash site is also being taken into account: the presence of Dutch Safety Board investigators must not put others in danger.

Moreover, recovering the victims' bodies and searching for personal belongings had top priority. The opportunities for visiting the crash site were limited, and priority was given to forensic investigators (and the supporting marechaussees).

6. What is a preliminary report?
The preliminary report is an interim report used to publish the initial results of an investigation following an major aircraft accident. The ICAO agreement that sets out the investigative procedures for civil and other aviation states that a preliminary report must be released during an investigation. This report may also include safety warnings. The preliminary report is not subject to any criteria in terms of structure or scope. The content is partly dependent on the progress of the investigation and the need to report certain findings.

The preliminary report on the crash of MH17 being prepared by the Dutch Safety Board contains a number of facts based on various sources; allowing an initial, provisional sequence of events to be made. The investigation team collected information from various sources, such as the Cockpit Voice Recorder, the Flight Data Recorder, satellite and other images, and radar information. All the data is then compared to determine whether the various sources corroborate each other, or show a different view. This is a delicate and time-consuming process that has not yet been completed.

The draft versions of the preliminary report will be discussed by the international investigation team and with the Board prior to being published. The ICAO states that the normal period required for drawing up a preliminary report is 2-4 weeks, however justified exceptions are permitted. Given the particular and complex circumstances surrounding this occurence, it is not yet exactly clear when the preliminary report will be published.

7. Will the Dutch Safety Board be publicly releasing the content from the Cockpit Voice Recorder and the Flight Data Recorder?
Investigative materials and sources of information used by the Dutch Safety Board in its investigations are protected by law. Only information relevant to determining the cause of the MH17 crash will be included in the final report. The available investigative information will not be released publicly in their entirety, except for what is published in the final report. This is in accordance with the Dutch Safety Board Act (Rijkswet Onderzoeksraad voor Veiligheid) and the ICAO agreement.

8. When will the final report be released?
An aviation accident investigation requires a lot of time. Not only is the investigation a complex, delicate and therefore time-consuming process involving various different parties, the Dutch Safety Board is also bound to international regulations that are set out in the ICAO agreement. One of these regulations prescribes that a draft of the final report must be presented for feedback to all parties which are formally involved. These parties then have sixty days to respond to the draft, after which the Dutch Safety Board must incorporate their feedback. The definitive report is expected to be published within one year.

9. What is the difference between the preliminary report and the final report?
The preliminary report provides an overview of the initial, provisional facts a relatively short time after the occurence. When the report is released, not all investigation data will have been analysed and no definitive conclusions drawn. Additional investigation data, an analysis and the conclusions based thereon will be included in the final report, making it far more extensive and in-depth.

10. Why does the Dutch Safety Board not issue any statements concerning guilt or liability?
In addition to providing a clear understanding of the cause, the aim of the Dutch Safety Board's work is to increase safety. This is achieved by investigating the causes of an incident and – if possible – making recommendations to improve safety. This is set out as such in the ICAO agreement, which deals specifically with aviation investigations.

11. What is the ICAO and what is Annex 13?
Founded in 1947, the International Civil Aviation Organisation is a specialist UN organisation whose goal is to establish the principles and standards for international civil aviation for the improvement of aviation. Among other things, the ICAO agreement prescribes how aviation accidents must be investigated, and that the purpose of such investigations must be to improve safety and not to apportion blame or establish liability. Annex 13 (one section of the agreement) describes how investigations into aviation incidents should be conducted, the criteria that the report must satisfy, and which countries need to be involved.

Dutch Safety Board | Investigations & Publication | Investigation crash MH17, 17 July 2014

Further investigation In its preliminary report, the Safety Board presents the initial findings of an investigation that is still fully underway. More research will be necessary to determine more precisely what caused the crash and how the airplane disintegrated. The Board believes that additional evidence will become available in the period ahead. From this point on, the research team will start working towards producing the definitive investigation report. The Board aims to publish the report within one year of the date of the crash.

Procedure
The draft preliminary report has been sent to the Accredited Representative of the states that participate in the investigation (Malaysia, Ukraine, the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom, the United States of America and Australia) for review. All Accredited Representatives have sent a reaction. The Dutch Safety Board assessed the provided suggestions and amended the report where appropriate.

Dutch Safety Board | Investigations & Publication | Investigation crash MH17, 17 July 2014

The preliminary report as published
http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/upload...3acad0ceprem-rapport-mh-17-en-interactief.pdf

 

[Penguin]

ICAO Annex 13 Appendix

INTERNATIONAL STANDARDS AND RECOMMENDED PRACTICES
AIRCRAFT ACCIDENT AND INCIDENT INVESTIGATION
ANNEX 13
TO THE CONVENTION ON INTERNATIONAL CIVIL AVIATION

Preliminary Report. The communication used for the prompt dissemination of data obtained during the early stages of the investigation.

Accident. An occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight until such time as all such persons have disembarked, in which:
a) a person is fatally or seriously injured as a result of
- being in the aircraft, or
- direct contact with any part of the aircraft, including parts which have become detached from the aircraft, or
- direct exposure to jet blast,
except when the injuries are from natural causes, self inflicted or inflicted by other persons, or when the injuries are to stowaways hiding outside the areas normally available to the passengers and crew: or
b) the aircraft sustains damage or structural failure which:
- adversely affects the structural strength, performance or flight characteristics of the aircraft, and
- would normally require major repair or replacement of the affected component,
except for engine failure or damage. when the damage is limited to the engine, its cowlings or accessories: or for damage limited to propellers, wing tips, antennas, tires, brakes, fairings, small dents or puncture holes in the aircraft skin: or
c) the aircraft is missing or is completely inaccessible.

Incident. An occurrence, other than an accident, associated with the operation of an aircraft which affects or could affect the safety of operation.

CHAPTER 3. GENERAL
. . . . .
OBJECTIVE OF THE INVESTIGATION
3.1 The sole objective of the investigation of an accident or incident shall be the prevention of accidents and incidents. It is not the purpose of this activity to apportion blame or liability.

 

[Penguin]

ICAO Accident Investigation Section (AIG)
Accident Investigation Section (AIG)

Manual of Aircraft Accident and Incident Investigation
http://www.aviadocs.net/icaodocs/Docs/9756_p3_cons_en.pdf

Aircraft Accident and Incident Investigation
http://www.emsa.europa.eu/retro/Docs/marine_casualties/annex_13.pdf.