First wargames with China in India

[Contrarian]

I didn't mean an argument... what I meant was more freedom at flag meetings.

Further, you seem to know about the situation in the area, people I have spoken to say that the IA too often "lands up" in their side of the border, and that we are very evenly matched. You think that's true?

There are gurus in this topic in BR. If you care to read their views.

But from my own knowledge, if you think of the situation widely, as in including the entire NE in a war, yes we are quite evenly matched because of the superiority in the air. India can put more fighters up in the air at a much shorter notice with a higher loadout. This is apart from the fact that our planes are technologically much superior to theirs.

In that context, once the Airforce builds its AFNET, connects all the airbases and builds a few more(ex-reopening DBO, and some landing bases), modernises the existing ones to become general bases-ie capable to taking on and doing minor repairs of any plane in the IAF inventory. Currently, most of our AFB's are specialist bases, that is they operate only specific kinds of planes and are geared up for operations of that plane only.
What i am saying are not things i want done, these are things that are being done currently!

The 3 things that hinder IAF operations in NE are
1. Lack of SAM's

Most of our SAM's are of vintage origin and new ones are not available, as soon as they become available, they are first put in the western border against Pakistan. We have very questionable ground defence in the NE.

It is here, that i hope that the Akash will be put and that it is good enough. Our collaboration with Israel for Barak 8 SAM and the LLRQM SAM with MBDA fructifies. Otherwise, things are going to the dogs. Again, these things are in progress, nothing is waiting to happen, i just hope that they dont get derailed.

2. Lack of AWACS

Three is just too small for anything. Maybe the IAF is waiting to evaluate the performance of Phalcon's first hand before ordering more or something, but they must order ATLEAST 3 more Phalcons for maintaining round the clock coverage. There are no plans that we know of to get more in the future apart from the AEW&C being developed by DRDO.

3.Lack of AAR for sustained operations

We have 6, we need 6 more, there are plans(thank god) in this regard to float a RFI/RFP for 6 more in a couple of years. The MoD in this context is wondering whether to order more of Il-78's or go for A-330's. Either way, it will be issued at max in a couple of years.

Within one decade, the way IAF is getting funds from the GoI, the IAF would be geared for effective offensive operations in side China, when i say effective, i mean taking out important nodes not just in tibet, not token or tactical effects. I have also not mentioned the MRCA, within 1 decade there would atleast 2 squadrons of it. That means more of Su-30MKI sqdrns would be deployed in the NE.

In the western sector, the PLAAF already holds no water against the IAF, in the Aksai Chin area. This is beacause we have prepared extensively for operations in Pakistani Kashmir as well as counter air against PAF. We have the required capability there,they dont.

If things go just as they are going now, without counting anything new that MoD might be getting for IAF, IAF would be dominant against PLAAF. The modernization of IAF is very very comprehensive.

At a tactical level near the border areas, however the situation is completely reversed, there are no roads. The soldiers have to trek for 1 or even 2 days to reach their outposts, compare this with the PLA which has roads right UPTO their claim areas and forward posts! Now the GoI has made its priority to build infrastructure there, but it would take atleast 5 years to bring it to a minumum required level, let alone having multiple logistics lines for redundancy. And as such, infrastructure building projects are highly susceptible to delays, there is no guarentee that it would be done as per schedule.

The artillary we have is a joke against PLA. The Field Artillary Rationalization Plan lies in tatters, after 5 years of trials of the new Bofors. We also dont have enough MRLS to put them in the NE. The Smerch and Pinaka are to be first put into the western theatre. The FARP would take another 5-7 years before it comes into action.

The IA HEAVILY depends on the IAF for supply of its troops, and the IAF is being severely constrained by its cargo carrying capacity. IAF btw is also planning a complete overhaul of its lift capacity, new Il-78's and the new MRTA(again being done by the decade).

All in all, i would say that we would be evenly matched on the ground (if the FARP commences on time, this time) and have a very high degree of superiority in the air(provided the MoD is able to cater for SAM's on time to protect the ADB's). And in the NE, its the air superiority that counts most.

So i hope, you can understand, our current position and the position we would be in if the current process goes unhindered.

 

[p2prada]

There are gurus in this topic in BR. If you care to read their views.

But from my own knowledge, if you think of the situation widely, as in including the entire NE in a war, yes we are quite evenly matched because of the superiority in the air. India can put more fighters up in the air at a much shorter notice with a higher loadout. This is apart from the fact that our planes are technologically much superior to theirs.

That is possible, unless the IAF bases are taken out first by a PLA invasion.

In that context, once the Airforce builds its AFNET, connects all the airbases and builds a few more(ex-reopening DBO, and some landing bases), modernises the existing ones to become general bases-ie capable to taking on and doing minor repairs of any plane in the IAF inventory. Currently, most of our AFB's are specialist bases, that is they operate only specific kinds of planes and are geared up for operations of that plane only.
What i am saying are not things i want done, these are things that are being done currently!

Nice, but wheres all the monnies coming from. The defence expects a 60% hike next year, mainly for pay. And we cant actually match the chinese build up.
who knows? they might have something like 300 J-11s against our 100+ fighters in a decade.

 

[Contrarian]

That is possible, unless the IAF bases are taken out first by a PLA invasion.

The IAF bases can only be taken out by a salvo strike of CM's or BM's. BM's are not really desirable for taking out such AFB's, they are not as effective. So we assume that the Chinese would use massive CM strikes to take out IAF AFB's. Therefore i said, that one of the most crucial gaps in our preparedness is lack of SAM's. The Perchoras and Shilka's are not new. And they dont have a high hit rate regardless of the fact that they are being modernized. India NEEDS the SAM's that are being developed right now almost everywhere. We need overlaping regions with a 3 layered SAM protection.
The Barak 8(Land based LR-SAM, the land version of the Barak NG being developed for IN and IsN) and the LLQRM development with MBDA-Maitri/Rohini/Rewadi and Akash, all are needed NOW. Unfortunately, with the recent bribery accusations against IAI-I dont know whether the Barak-8 stands in a limbo or not.

I repeat, IF and only IF things go as they are already planned and already funded for, then we should have no problem.

The Chinese face a severe disadvantage in the NE in case of an air war-the altitude of their airbases in Tibet severely restricts their loadout, they are also highly susceptible to any strike because higher length of runways are needed to take off. Damage to them is unacceptable for PLAAF. Thus if they do assemble a massive strike package, the planes either have to come from their interior bases, or they have to take off from these tibetan bases and tank off from a refueller before going forward. Both these options are very risky for them.

And by the same token, we can also use our CM's to destroy the PLAAF Tibetan AFB's and runways.

Nice, but wheres all the monnies coming from. The defence expects a 60% hike next year, mainly for pay. And we cant actually match the chinese build up.
who knows? they might have something like 300 J-11s against our 100+ fighters in a decade.

We are not matching the Chinese buildup, our products remain technologically superior to them and in sufficient numbers that they put up fights. Our defence budget has been expanding year on year, and some people complain that its still not enough, it should be fixed to 3% GDP!

The money is not a problem-the problem is MoD is not spending fast enough.

Interestingly Vivek Ahuja on BR has a very similar scenario going on. I recommend you to read it, the man is very talented and he is putting up these exact same cases.

 

[su-47]

Nice, but wheres all the monnies coming from. The defence expects a 60% hike next year, mainly for pay. And we cant actually match the chinese build up.
who knows? they might have something like 300 J-11s against our 100+ fighters in a decade.

and 300 J-10s. China is planning to get 300 J-10s.

This is why we need a great plane for MRCA, and PAKFA. To have an air force that can match or exceed china's, and be a deterrent to any form of agression.

 

[DarkStar]

China has traditionally negotiated border problems and solved them when the other party has been stronger.

We are not going to gift Arunachal Pradesh, like Pakistan gifted Kashmir for good relations.

Pakistan did not gift anything, which was not already righfully China's. The illegally occupied parts of china, which the British had accepted were disputed territory, were given back to China by Pakistan. These parts were never historically part of Kashmir.

So please stop propogating this blatant lie.

 

[third eye]

Pakistan did not gift anything, which was not already righfully China's. The illegally occupied parts of china, which the British had accepted were disputed territory, were given back to China by Pakistan. These parts were never historically part of Kashmir.

So please stop propogating this blatant lie.

This is not a lie.

Parts of J&K have been ceded ( read leased) by Pak to China. I recall reading the text of the agreement in a post on this forum. applying ur logic of disputed territory further , there are disputed regions on the Pak - afghan border too...

 

[Contrarian]

and 300 J-10s. China is planning to get 300 J-10s.

This is why we need a great plane for MRCA, and PAKFA. To have an air force that can match or exceed china's, and be a deterrent to any form of agression.

Like i said, India's ability to put more fighters in the air, in a shorter time, with a higher loadout coupled with a technological lead in individual fighters ensures, that even on a backfoot, IAF can fight on its own.

But in NE, the point is not an air victory, the point is how the IAF can aid the Army. For without air support, the IA will be pummeled as it doesnt have the requisite logistics lines, or the equipment it needs right now.

Even if the IAF downs PLAAF in the majority of the skirmishes, India would still be a net loser, its not about destroying the enemy AF, its about destroying their Army.

Now think, what prevents our AF from supporting the IA-lack of bases to take off from in the NE(considering them to be disabled by CM barrages), and PLAAF counter-air ops.

To 'handle' both the cases, 2 things are required-an integrated SAM environment in NE as well as forward deployment areas and insufficient AWACS. The two major weak spots of IAF right now. These need to be corrected.

 

[p2prada]

Your points are strong. But I was talking about a full scale infantry invasion. Our army is simply stretched too thin to handle an invasion of some 200000 to 300000 soldiers in the NE. Anyways, China will not attempt to walk upto Delhi or something. They might just be content with sikkim and arunachal pradesh.

The chinese might try capturing the airbases rather than destroying them with BMs.

 

[Flintlock]

India, China to hold joint army exercise

* First-ever exercise to be conducted in December in Karnataka’s Belgaum district

NEW DELHI: India and China, which had fought a brief but bloody war in 1962, will hold their first joint military exercise on Indian soil in mid-December.

“The India-China exercise will be conducted in the second week of December in Belgaum (Karnataka),” Indian Defence Minister AK Antony told Indo-Asian News Service.

Forging new military ties amid soaring trade and business links, an Indian Army team went to China in December last year for the first war games between the two countries near the city of Kunming. This will be the first time that Chinese Army troops will come to India to conduct military exercises.

“It will really be a delightful exercise in the 62 years of independence,” Antony said.

During his visit to the border post of Longewala in February this year, Antony stated that the next India-China joint army exercises would be held in India.

Military ties between the two countries have seen a thaw in recent times with Chinese Navy chief Admiral Wu Sheng Li coming on his maiden visit to the country this week and Indian Air Force (IAF) chief Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major going to Beijing.

Indian and Chinese warships have already been making calls at each other’s ports as part of growing confidence-building measures between the two sides. The Indian Navy has long expressed apprehensions about the Chinese Navy’s incursions into the Indian Ocean and hopes to ‘blunt’ its thrust into this area through engagement.

The two navies, which have held elementary drills in the past, are now seeking to engage with each other for the first time next year.

A memorandum of understanding was signed between India and China in May 2006 during a visit by the then defence minister Pranab Mukherjee that stipulated that the two countries would hold joint military exercises, join forces in counter-terrorism and anti-piracy efforts and also co-operate in search and rescue operations.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan