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First Squadron of JF-17 Inducted on 18/02/2010

and also if you look at PAF 10 years ago it was completely different

we have inducted JF-17s , F-16s (used), Refuellers, AWACS, Cruise Missiles and the list goes on....... all in 10 years span

so who knows what holds for Pakistan between 2010 - 2020? besides some apparent deals of JF-17s, FC-20s and F-16s :D



You got a point, really it all happened in 10 years specially in last 5 years

According to a source PAF will get J10s in 4 to 5 years...This is sure
 
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Why should Pakistani members worry about what kind of fighter jets Indians

cound buy? In this regard, also naval ships, etc.. Whatever, let poor Indians have.

That's not the point.


Even China only got her J-10A several year ago when the US already

got F-22A. Did China worry about being invaded by the US?

Most of North Korea's jets are of post WWII. With a small nuke in hand,

whenever Kim Jong III sniffs, the Yanks, Japs and South Koreans still get cold .


See the point? With nuke missle and China at her side , Pakistan has nothing

to fear, even if the yanks decided to sell F-22A to India tomorrow, so what? Dare India

touch a hair of Pakistan because of that?


Now as a decent and versatile 3.5 - 4 gen , JF-17 is ideal to fit PAF's current needs

and is an excellent platform for Pakistan to start with. Indeed, no more than

a dozen countries in the world today could produce JF-17 alone. Pakistan

is one of them and with JF-17 in service. Where is India's LCA, Tejas, or whatever in comparison?

So working on it to absorb 100% of its tech and improve it thereafter

should be the top priority of Pakistan regardless what India is doing.


Every 20 years or so, a new gennaration of fighter jets come along. China just inducted

J-10 several years ago and soon ( 7-8yrs I guess) JXX will be in service. China's next

gen (6th gen) fighter research must already got started secretly a while ago. India can

now buy T-50 (pakfa) - almost the best that Russians have today. With current development speed

of China, 20 years later, can Russia release 6th gen fighters earlier than China for sure?

How about 7th gen? and so on...? In the long run, China will get in par with the US, let

alone Russia. So unless the US is willing to sell her best planes to India at any short

notice, where could Indians possiblely go buy 6th gen, 7th gen...? But Pakistan always

has China to rely on. So future is at side of Pakistan.


Pakistan is far smaller than India with far less population. Thus it's unwise and

unrealistic to compete with India hardware for hardware, dollar for dollar. So be

smart and leave it. Indians dare not start a war, because China would interviene

in that case, and no one, neither Russia , EU nor the US will say a word for India, as

all of them have much deeper and long term strategic bonds with China in all spheres

of activities while just having no more than a normal client relationsip with India.

So let Indians waste their resources , however little they have now, to build up their

useless arsenal which will be rusted in their own storage room anyway,

and both their ability to afford them and the places where to buy them are fastly

running out as well.

Pakistan should shift her attention to solve internal problems and build up the economy,

which is much more important in the long run. The flip side of having much smaller

population and country size than India is that Pakistan can grow faster and become

more advanced easlier , if gets the priority right.
 
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Pakistan, on the other hand, holds quite a few cards which, if we play them right, could benefit many. India's role in the grander things in this region is limited to financial investment and geo-politics, whereas Pakistan's role spans the spectrum from economy, nation building, politics, Armed Forces, aversion of conflicts and much, much more that you and I don't even know about. We simply have a lot more to offer to the World in general and this region in particular, which is why we were in the front row while India was in the third at the recent London conference (I'm not bragging, I say this only because I need to).

This is a Joke statement.

Do you know how many Pakistanis are being refused entry into USA/EUROPE as we speak.

Do you have any inclination as to the SIZE of India Trade with Europe/USA in comparison to Pakistan its like ten times as much.

India will add OVER $100 BILLION to its GDP this year. And $1000 billion in 7 years .. Compare that to Pakistans trade or current GDP a tiny $170 billion.

You have no concept or are in TOTAL DENILE of what is happening Between India USA Israel & Europe.

India has the United States REVERSE its nuclear tech export treaty to gain h tech Anmerican nuclear tech.

India will buy $50 billion of USA military hardware within 10 years. Same amount from RUSSIA and europe with TOT.. name one otther country that has open access to all in the world. Like India which is unique.

India military budget already a staggaring $35 billion will toch $50 billion by 2015. and over $100 billion in 2022.

India is now operating at a completely different levekl to Pakistan and indeed most nations globally.

THEYT HAVE ENORMOUS CL;OUT in USA TELE AVIV MOSCOW AND EUROPE
 
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Pakistan, on the other hand, holds quite a few cards which, if we play them right, could benefit many. India's role in the grander things in this region is limited to financial investment and geo-politics, whereas Pakistan's role spans the spectrum from economy, nation building, politics, Armed Forces, aversion of conflicts and much, much more that you and I don't even know about. We simply have a lot more to offer to the World in general and this region in particular, which is why we were in the front row while India was in the third at the recent London conference (I'm not bragging, I say this only because I need to).

This is a Joke statement.

Do you know how many Pakistanis are being refused entry into USA/EUROPE as we speak.

Do you have any inclination as to the SIZE of India Trade with Europe/USA in comparison to Pakistan its like ten times as much.

India will add OVER $100 BILLION to its GDP this year. And $1000 billion in 7 years .. Compare that to Pakistans trade or current GDP a tiny $170 billion.

You have no concept or are in TOTAL DENILE of what is happening Between India USA Israel & Europe.

India has the United States REVERSE its nuclear tech export treaty to gain h tech Anmerican nuclear tech.

India will buy $50 billion of USA military hardware within 10 years. Same amount from RUSSIA and europe with TOT.. name one otther country that has open access to all in the world. Like India which is unique.

India military budget already a staggaring $35 billion will toch $50 billion by 2015. and over $100 billion in 2022.

India is now operating at a completely different levekl to Pakistan and indeed most nations globally.

THEYT HAVE ENORMOUS CL;OUT in USA TELE AVIV MOSCOW AND EUROPE
|||||||||||||||||||||
Im at the top of the world....weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
No dude our children are dyin of starvation:disagree:
Who cares im the king of the world

Wet dreams :rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
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Do you have any inclination as to the SIZE of India Trade with Europe/USA in comparison to Pakistan its like ten times as much.
I admitted that India is of greater economic significance to the World, at the moment. But you used the term "strategic", which is wrong.

Regardless of your rant on how the World bows down to India, the fact remains that India's defensive capabilities are important only to India, whereas Pakistan's are important to many nations around the world. In addition, you are of the flawed opinion that the World only wants to deal with India at the expense of its trade with Pakistan. If this were true, the very same countries you mentioned would stop all trade with Pakistan to please India, but we haven't seen that. And yes, India's trade may be 10 times greater, but then your requirements are 20 times greater as well. Economists around the world agree that India and China have bloated economic figures due to their massive population sizes. They believe that the scales used to measure developing economies of nations like Pakistan, and for "super-economies" like China and India should be different (just like they are for developed and developing countries). But that's beside the point, because India is still a more lucrative market for most foreign companies, including defense.

This, however, does not translate into a greater "strategic" importance for India. They have the money so they can buy what they like, but it doesn't mean that they will, somehow, be able to overshadow any business with Pakistan. There are plenty of companies that would gladly sell Pakistan its weapon systems if Pakistan requested them, and there is no reason to think this will change anytime soon. The key concerns for us in any weapon system purchase are finance and self-reliance. Pakistan has limited funds with which to maximize the gains of any acquisition, hence, we must make the best overall decision. There should be little doubt in anybody's mind that the French would gladly make available the Rafale and Mirage to us, or that the Swedes would sell us the Grippen, and son on. However, Pakistan considers the Chinese FC-20 deal to be a better one for us in the long term, so we're going for that. India doesn't even come into this picture (maybe, maybe, Russia still cares what India thinks, but that's about it).
 
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I admitted that India is of greater economic significance to the World, at the moment. But you used the term "strategic", which is wrong.

Regardless of your rant on how the World bows down to India, the fact remains that India's defensive capabilities are important only to India, whereas Pakistan's are important to many nations around the world.
That's an interesting point, but I don't agree with you!
Pakistans defense capabilities are only important for other nations for 2 reasons, one because it seems that most of the taliban and terrorists moved from Afghanistan to Pakistan now and secondly to make sure that the nukes are safe and can't fall into the wrong hands. So it's aimed for the use inside of Pakistan right?

Indian forces and especially IN instead, getting more and more important in a stratigic way to deter China. The stratigic location of India at the key shipping route towards the east is the biggest problem for China, be it in a war directly against India, or even against the US for Taiwan, if these routes are blocked Chinas supplies are in big trouble. That's why the US wants closer ties to India now, because they need the Indian forces as a counter weight on Chinas western borders and the Indian Ocean, whereas their forces still focus on South Korea, Japan and around Taiwan.

US gives India policing power in the Indian Ocean

WASHINGTON: Taking note of India’s “growing influence” in global affairs, the US has said the country will be a net provider of security in the Indian Ocean and beyond with the growth of its military capabilities...

...“India’s military capabilities are rapidly improving through increased defence acquisitions and they now include long-range maritime surveillance, maritime interdiction and patrolling, air interdiction and strategic airlift,” the report noted.

“India has already established its worldwide military influence through counter piracy, peacekeeping, humanitarian assistance, and disaster relief efforts. As its military capabilities grow, India will contribute to Asia as a net provider of security in the Indian Ocean and beyond,” report said...

US gives India policing power in the Indian Ocean - India - The Times of India

So you can say either Pakistans and Indian forces plays an important role in the US strategy, but with different aims! Pakistan forces mainly internally, whereas Indian forces should play a regional, or even global role, although I don't see GoI sees it in the latter.

Also Indian defensive capabilities are not only important for India, but also for smaller neighbours like Nepal, or Butan. If India falls, nobody will care if China takes these countries in a row too, because they are not important to the world. They will complain and protest like we see in the case of Tibet, but nobody will send troops to protect them.

This, however, does not translate into a greater "strategic" importance for India. They have the money so they can buy what they like, but it doesn't mean that they will, somehow, be able to overshadow any business with Pakistan. There are plenty of companies that would gladly sell Pakistan its weapon systems if Pakistan requested them, and there is no reason to think this will change anytime soon.
You are mistaken if you think only Indian money to buy plays a role for them, because unlike the Gulf states, India is also important as a main outsourcing hub for the world. Just look at the ties in the defense industry with western counterparts now, that mainly comes because the wise strategy of GoI and MoD to give orders only with high ammount of offsets and ToT. Be it EADS, BAE, Boeing, Sikorsky, LM, Thales, Saab, Sukhoi, Mikoyan, or IAI!
All important companies building major sites in India, jv, or co-developments with the Indian industry now, which are meant for mid, or long term of course. So we don't just buy arms with our money like the Gulf states, we also improve our industrial and the economic ties like this, which in return will increase the importance of India to other those foreign countries too.

Also you said there are plenty of companies that would gladly sell Pakistan its weapon systems if Pakistan requested them, which of course is true, because those companies only aim on making money, without a need to think about political reasons, but governments can't do it like this!
If I'm not wrong Saab, or the Swedish industry in generall wanted to sell weapons to Pakistan in the past, but their government rejected it right? So although companies might be ready to sell you anything you want, it don't mean you will get anything. But this of course can be said about India too! Boeing is more than ready to sell us F18 Growlers, but it's more than doubtful that the US government will do it right?

The key concerns for us in any weapon system purchase are finance and self-reliance. Pakistan has limited funds with which to maximize the gains of any acquisition, hence, we must make the best overall decision. There should be little doubt in anybody's mind that the French would gladly make available the Rafale and Mirage to us, or that the Swedes would sell us the Grippen, and son on. However, Pakistan considers the Chinese FC-20 deal to be a better one for us in the long term, so we're going for that. India doesn't even come into this picture (maybe, maybe, Russia still cares what India thinks, but that's about it).
I don't think that India will be able to pressure other nations anyway, but simply from the economic point of view it should be clear, that those countries don't offer the same arms to Pakistan, if they could get more benefit with the sale to India. So if France would sale Rafale to Pakistan in a small order (even if you can pay for them), it would clearly lose the chance of a big order in India.
The Tiger helicopter for example was offered to Pakistan only after it went out of the Indian combat helicopter competition, because it was obvious that it don't fit the requirements, so it has no chance to win it.
The U214 sale to PN was said to be 95% cleared last year, but still is not fixed, but now the German president came to India and offered offensivly these subs and the EF. PN wants to buy 3 of them, IN looks for at least 6, if not up to 10 like some sources say.
That means, even if India can't, or won't put pressure on them, it is in their interest, to don't offer you the same, at least as long they see a chance of selling to India with a higher benefit.
 
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Why should Pakistani members worry about what kind of fighter jets Indians

cound buy? In this regard, also naval ships, etc.. Whatever, let poor Indians have.

That's not the point.


Even China only got her J-10A several year ago when the US already

got F-22A. Did China worry about being invaded by the US?

Most of North Korea's jets are of post WWII. With a small nuke in hand,

whenever Kim Jong III sniffs, the Yanks, Japs and South Koreans still get cold .


See the point? With nuke missle and China at her side , Pakistan has nothing


to fear, even if the yanks decided to sell F-22A to India tomorrow, so what? Dare India

touch a hair of Pakistan because of that?


Now as a decent and versatile 3.5 - 4 gen , JF-17 is ideal to fit PAF's current needs

and is an excellent platform for Pakistan to start with. Indeed, no more than

a dozen countries in the world today could produce JF-17 alone. Pakistan


is one of them and with JF-17 in service. Where is India's LCA, Tejas, or whatever in comparison?

So working on it to absorb 100% of its tech and improve it thereafter
should be the top priority of Pakistan regardless what India is doing.
Every 20 years or so, a new gennaration of fighter jets come along. China just inducted
J-10 several years ago and soon ( 7-8yrs I guess) JXX will be in service. China's next

gen (6th gen) fighter research must already got started secretly a while ago. India can

now buy T-50 (pakfa) - almost the best that Russians have today. With current development speed

of China, 20 years later, can Russia release 6th gen fighters earlier than China for sure?

How about 7th gen? and so on...? In the long run, China will get in par with the US, let

alone Russia. So unless the US is willing to sell her best planes to India at any short

notice, where could Indians possiblely go buy 6th gen, 7th gen...? But Pakistan always

has China to rely on. So future is at side of Pakistan.


Pakistan is far smaller than India with far less population. Thus it's unwise and

unrealistic to compete with India hardware for hardware, dollar for dollar. So be

smart and leave it. Indians dare not start a war, because China would interviene

in that case, and no one, neither Russia , EU nor the US will say a word for India, as

all of them have much deeper and long term strategic bonds with China in all spheres

of activities while just having no more than a normal client relationsip with India.

So let Indians waste their resources , however little they have now, to build up their

useless arsenal which will be rusted in their own storage room anyway,

and both their ability to afford them and the places where to buy them are fastly

running out as well.

Pakistan should shift her attention to solve internal problems and build up the economy,

which is much more important in the long run. The flip side of having much smaller

population and country size than India is that Pakistan can grow faster and become

more advanced easlier , if gets the priority right.

Very good analysis especially the highlighted and under lined portion of the above Text. I can see a different Pakistan in nect 5 to 10 years from now ( talking about defence only). Pakistani defence getting improved day by day. JF17s production is the beginning of new dawn.:pakistan:
 
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Pakistan, on the other hand, holds quite a few cards which, if we play them right, could benefit many. India's role in the grander things in this region is limited to financial investment and geo-politics, whereas Pakistan's role spans the spectrum from economy, nation building, politics, Armed Forces, aversion of conflicts and much, much more that you and I don't even know about. We simply have a lot more to offer to the World in general and this region in particular, which is why we were in the front row while India was in the third at the recent London conference (I'm not bragging, I say this only because I need to).
I am sure India is more than happy to just contribute in financial investment and geo politics. Wouldnt want India to sit in the first row of the london conference at the cost of the mess that exisits in the NWFP and waziristan areas of Pakistan. Both you and I know that its the same mess that makes Pakistan important for NATO and the US.

What you meant to say is that India has a greater pull-power for international business, which is absolutely true. If a European firm had the option of selling 200 jets to India with ToPT or 50 jets to Pakistan without ToPT, they would likely choose the first. However, we must also remember that there are many companies around the world that would love to do business with Pakistan, and there is no way India can do business with all of them. Therefore, there will never be a situation where Pakistan has noone to turn to because of India, that is merely a fantasy.

And I dont think anyone seriously believes that Pakistan will get isolated. Doesnt have to be a zero sum game

My point is simply this. There are way too many people sitting on their high horses looking down at us. Pakistan's defense capability is still of vital importance to the World (at least for the next 5 years), and there are still many opportunities that await us if we would like to avail them (at least for the next decade). We still have tremendous pulling power, even if it isn't as great as our gigantic neighbours India and China. Someone said "I don't think the F-35 will be offered to Pakistan ten years from now". I say, why won't it? because Lockheed Martin would be willing to sacrifice a long-time customer so as not to hurt India's feelings?

This is not a game of monopoly between siblings.

I agree 100%
 
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Source: Daily Express. http://www.express.com.pk/images/NP_LHE/20100218/Sub_Images/1100859721-1.gif

Well I am not great at translation but it would be something like this:

Lahore (Zia Tanouli) Pakistan-China jointly developed JF-17 Thunder multirole fighter airplane is formally inducted in the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). Number 26 squadron is established in Kamra in which 14 airplanes are initially inducted. According to the top sources of the PAF, the 14 airplanes inducted were thoroughly evaluated with all kinds of armament in the anti-terror operation in Wazeeristan. Due to the security concerns, the first squadron is established in Kamra which will later be transferred to Peshawar. With the establishment of the first squadron of the JF-17, the two A-5 squadrons will also be grounded today. The inaugural ceremony of the establishment of the new squadron will be held today in Kamra, in which along with the ACM Rao Qamar Suleman, many important national dignitaries will participate. According to the sources, in the coming weeks, more airplanes which are in their finals phase of completion, will be inducted in this squadron.

sir i want to is there chace of producing Jf17 with double seated craft......
and when will we achive our production target in pakistan........... thaNX:pakistan::pdf:
 
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Also Indian defensive capabilities are not only important for India, but also for smaller neighbours like Nepal, or Butan. If India falls, nobody will care if China takes these countries in a row too, because they are not important to the world. They will complain and protest like we see in the case of Tibet, but nobody will send troops to protect them.

Surely Indian defensive capabilities are not only important for India, they are also important for Kashmir, Pakistan, Bangladesh and all countries neighbour to India (which include China). Because with the infamous greed of territory, India was and still is the biggest enemy of those country. I just can't imagine what will happen to Kashmir, Pakistan and Bangladesh if China fall...

BTW, if you INDIAN dare to take Tibet as another Kashmir, then your nightmare is not far away.
 
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Surely Indian defensive capabilities are not only important for India, they are also important for Kashmir, Pakistan, Bangladesh and all countries neighbour to India (which include China). Because with the infamous greed of territory, India was and still is the biggest enemy of those country. I just can't imagine what will happen to Kashmir, Pakistan and Bangladesh if China fall...

BTW, if you INDIAN dare to take Tibet as another Kashmir, then your nightmare is not far away.

You should take care of ur country first, Donot think too much abt India. And why are you so inconfident on ur country itself , if it fall ???
And you will see ur worst nightmare too if you dare to look at Arunachal Pradesh..

Well, post ur views abt the topic only. donot go elsewhere.

Moderators. we require ur attention here.
 
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You should take care of ur country first, Donot think too much abt India. And why are you so inconfident on ur country itself , if it fall ???
And you will see ur worst nightmare too if you dare to look at Arunachal Pradesh..

Well, post ur views abt the topic only. donot go elsewhere.

Moderators. we require ur attention here.

We are doing that perfectly fine look we captured your only source to reconcilation in afghanistan.we are not inconfident just take the IN out of your mind when refering to pakistan.Arunachal Pradesh is not sought by us its the chinese who are after it or if you Indians have finnaly come to terms with the fact that China and Pakistan are ONE then its fine.
Good point you are new here enjoy your stay .
By the way moderators here are very neutral :better than what you get a BR .:china::pakistan::devil:
 
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Someone need to send :devil:Devil:devil: back to the hell he came from :toast_sign:

This is about the THUNDER , JF17 thunder - please don't derail things man
 
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