Pakistani Fighter
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2011
- Messages
- 9,124
- Reaction score
- -5
$79.5 for each Frigate?
Fincantieri’s FREMM Wins US Navy FFG(X) Frigate Competition
- Thread starter The Ronin
- Start date
F-22Raptor
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2014
- Messages
- 16,980
- Reaction score
- 3
- Country
- Location
AgNoStiC MuSliM
ADVISORS
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2007
- Messages
- 25,259
- Reaction score
- 87
- Country
- Location
"The detail design and construction contract covers one ship in the current Fiscal Year 2020 and options for as many as nine more ships, for a total value of $5.58 billion if all options are exercised."
Constantin84
FULL MEMBER
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2020
- Messages
- 713
- Reaction score
- 1
- Country
- Location
I like the FREMM mast more than the ugly F100 Arleigh Burke, disorganised, wires everywhere one.
FuturePAF
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2014
- Messages
- 10,546
- Reaction score
- 24
- Country
- Location
Maybe the Freda design of the Fremm but with the Spy-1/6 radar would be an awesome alternative
Nilgiri
BANNED
- Joined
- Aug 4, 2015
- Messages
- 24,797
- Reaction score
- 81
- Country
- Location
I got some interesting tidbits/details on the background story of this if anyone is interested. I will post later if so.
@waz @Signalian @ANMDT @Vergennes @Dante80 @Joe Shearer
@waz @Signalian @ANMDT @Vergennes @Dante80 @Joe Shearer
waz
ADMINISTRATOR
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2006
- Messages
- 21,159
- Reaction score
- 91
- Country
- Location
Please do so my friend.
I'm surprised they chose the FREMM design. I was expecting the Spanish contender.
It has 48 VLS compared to the FREMM design or a variation of it.
Already have the AEGIS system.
This ship has less tonnage and is smaller. Yet can be armed more.
Was hoping for 48 VLS at least in the design of the ship once they selected it.
Ultima Thule
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2012
- Messages
- 16,725
- Reaction score
- 0
- Country
- Location
OK mr Indian migrant and US slave in Indonesia
why you always compare USN ships and PLAAN ships, Because you hate China
Last edited by a moderator:
Nilgiri
BANNED
- Joined
- Aug 4, 2015
- Messages
- 24,797
- Reaction score
- 81
- Country
- Location
@waz @Vergennes @Joe Shearer @Dante80 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Rashid Mahmood @gambit @TheMightyBender
Vergennes, you are not going to like some of the background stuff I'm afraid mon ami
a) There were two frigates (FREMM and F-100) in the final competition and two light frigates. (LCS-2 and HII). The sinking of the Helge Ingstad pretty much blew F-100 out of the water. HII's secrecy did their proposal in. So, it was going to be FREMM or LCS-2.
b) In the end, the Navy went for the larger and more conventional ship...pretty much killing what little residual impact Cebrowski and Hughes had.
c) FREMM is a good ship. It's a pity Type 26 didn't get a strong enough look (like I was hinting might happen to Waz some while ago)
d) From my contact, number block assigned to these ships is FFG-62 to FFG-80. This may be extended since the class may well not stop at 20.
e) Word on street is that Fincantieri sales office had a massive celebration and still comatose about it. This is one hell of a coup for them. The French must be furious.
f) Why are the French furious one may ask?
FREMM was originally a Franco-Italian project. One thing is that there was originally an agreement that if either of the partners made a sale, the profits and workload would be split sixty-forty between the partners (the big share being for the partner who landed the contract.
The French sold a FREMM to Egypt and when the Italians asked for their share, the French told them that they were fulfilling the contract by supplying a FREMM that had just been completed for the French Navy and building another FREMM to replace it. Therefore the agreement didn't apply. The Italians complained and got the "we just changed the agreement, pray we do not change it further" line.
So the French scrapped the profit share agreement over one ship and now Fincantieri went and landed an order for twenty.
Just to rub salt into the wound, the French refused to bid on FFG(X) because "everybody knows the Americans never order ships from foreign suppliers". (That isn't quite true by the way)
The Italians went in, worked hard, played the game well and got the order.
There really is a reason why people don't like the French sometimes
g) There will be minimum changes to FREMM current design....aided by a lot of the equipment already being NATO-standard American. The primary changes are the EW system and the main search radar, both of which are plug and play. The missile launch system is Mk.41 not Sylver (again pretty much plug and play). FREMM already has provision for a 5 inch Mk.45 mod 4.
There was a deliberate effort made to keep the customization to a minimum..an example of an area Fincantieri played the game well. They looked through the list of likely equipment changes and worked out how it could be done before the specs were released. So they had answers as soon as the questions were asked. The rest of the ship is pretty much 'walk on board and you know where you are".
Most other pitfalls and likely escalations won't be just the FREMM design, but something relevant to all...so it mattered a lot fincantieri working to get a leg in better wherever it could.
h) On the subject of integrating different equipment, apparently any cost over the amount specified in the contract will be carried by the manufacturer. The other difference between the Italian and US versions is that the hull of the US ship has been strengthened and 300 tons of protection has been worked in. That's a lot of protection for a frigate.
i) Apparently the Norwegians killed off the Navantia bid. They sent the US Navy a copy of their report on the sinking of the Helge Ingstad with the hand-written note saying "You really want to buy this?" It is said that the Norwegian Navy and Navantia are not on speaking terms right now.
=====
A few more details:
Replacing CODLAG with IFEP (trading gearing to generator on turbine + bigger electric motor) was considered.
But consensus was that it was too much change. Fincantieri worked out agreement with GE there would be no added cost to switching to american made GE LM2500 over the (licensed GE) Italian LM2500 made by Fiat.
Regarding different sizes for the Italian and French (FREMM) ships. The Italian ships have some internal differences and are built more toughly than the French ships. Had the French offered their ship seriously, that would have counted in favor of the Italian ship and against the French. It was lack of structural strength that did for the Navantia offer of F-100. Especially watertight integrity in the machinery spaces.
Costs w.r.t DDG51:
You get about 3 FFG-X for 2 DDG (construction cost)
You get about 2 FFG-X for 1 DDG (life cycle cost)
=====
Of course more finalized details will only be known in about 2 years time for lead ship final design package. So maybe I will post more then about it.
BTW, the French have done well with their Gowind light frigate exports and they have formed a joint venture with Fincantieri to upgrade older designs. That's another reason why this FFG(X) deal is so important, it enormously strengthens the Italian's hand in dealings within that joint venture.
French are also getting lot of attention over the pricing for Aussie Attack class sub. In fairness to the French, the reason why the Australian deal costs so much is that the Australians have bought a customized design that is basically a nuclear submarine with a diesel-electric power train. Think of it that they are paying nuclear costs for diesel-electric performance. That's a customer decision.
====
@waz @AgNoStiC MuSliM maybe please combine this thread to this one, so things are all in one place: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/us-n...-start-guided-missile-frigate-program.663869/
Thank you kindly.
Vergennes, you are not going to like some of the background stuff I'm afraid mon ami
a) There were two frigates (FREMM and F-100) in the final competition and two light frigates. (LCS-2 and HII). The sinking of the Helge Ingstad pretty much blew F-100 out of the water. HII's secrecy did their proposal in. So, it was going to be FREMM or LCS-2.
b) In the end, the Navy went for the larger and more conventional ship...pretty much killing what little residual impact Cebrowski and Hughes had.
c) FREMM is a good ship. It's a pity Type 26 didn't get a strong enough look (like I was hinting might happen to Waz some while ago)
d) From my contact, number block assigned to these ships is FFG-62 to FFG-80. This may be extended since the class may well not stop at 20.
e) Word on street is that Fincantieri sales office had a massive celebration and still comatose about it. This is one hell of a coup for them. The French must be furious.
f) Why are the French furious one may ask?
FREMM was originally a Franco-Italian project. One thing is that there was originally an agreement that if either of the partners made a sale, the profits and workload would be split sixty-forty between the partners (the big share being for the partner who landed the contract.
The French sold a FREMM to Egypt and when the Italians asked for their share, the French told them that they were fulfilling the contract by supplying a FREMM that had just been completed for the French Navy and building another FREMM to replace it. Therefore the agreement didn't apply. The Italians complained and got the "we just changed the agreement, pray we do not change it further" line.
So the French scrapped the profit share agreement over one ship and now Fincantieri went and landed an order for twenty.
Just to rub salt into the wound, the French refused to bid on FFG(X) because "everybody knows the Americans never order ships from foreign suppliers". (That isn't quite true by the way)
The Italians went in, worked hard, played the game well and got the order.
There really is a reason why people don't like the French sometimes
g) There will be minimum changes to FREMM current design....aided by a lot of the equipment already being NATO-standard American. The primary changes are the EW system and the main search radar, both of which are plug and play. The missile launch system is Mk.41 not Sylver (again pretty much plug and play). FREMM already has provision for a 5 inch Mk.45 mod 4.
There was a deliberate effort made to keep the customization to a minimum..an example of an area Fincantieri played the game well. They looked through the list of likely equipment changes and worked out how it could be done before the specs were released. So they had answers as soon as the questions were asked. The rest of the ship is pretty much 'walk on board and you know where you are".
Most other pitfalls and likely escalations won't be just the FREMM design, but something relevant to all...so it mattered a lot fincantieri working to get a leg in better wherever it could.
h) On the subject of integrating different equipment, apparently any cost over the amount specified in the contract will be carried by the manufacturer. The other difference between the Italian and US versions is that the hull of the US ship has been strengthened and 300 tons of protection has been worked in. That's a lot of protection for a frigate.
i) Apparently the Norwegians killed off the Navantia bid. They sent the US Navy a copy of their report on the sinking of the Helge Ingstad with the hand-written note saying "You really want to buy this?" It is said that the Norwegian Navy and Navantia are not on speaking terms right now.
=====
A few more details:
Replacing CODLAG with IFEP (trading gearing to generator on turbine + bigger electric motor) was considered.
But consensus was that it was too much change. Fincantieri worked out agreement with GE there would be no added cost to switching to american made GE LM2500 over the (licensed GE) Italian LM2500 made by Fiat.
Regarding different sizes for the Italian and French (FREMM) ships. The Italian ships have some internal differences and are built more toughly than the French ships. Had the French offered their ship seriously, that would have counted in favor of the Italian ship and against the French. It was lack of structural strength that did for the Navantia offer of F-100. Especially watertight integrity in the machinery spaces.
Costs w.r.t DDG51:
You get about 3 FFG-X for 2 DDG (construction cost)
You get about 2 FFG-X for 1 DDG (life cycle cost)
=====
Of course more finalized details will only be known in about 2 years time for lead ship final design package. So maybe I will post more then about it.
BTW, the French have done well with their Gowind light frigate exports and they have formed a joint venture with Fincantieri to upgrade older designs. That's another reason why this FFG(X) deal is so important, it enormously strengthens the Italian's hand in dealings within that joint venture.
French are also getting lot of attention over the pricing for Aussie Attack class sub. In fairness to the French, the reason why the Australian deal costs so much is that the Australians have bought a customized design that is basically a nuclear submarine with a diesel-electric power train. Think of it that they are paying nuclear costs for diesel-electric performance. That's a customer decision.
====
@waz @AgNoStiC MuSliM maybe please combine this thread to this one, so things are all in one place: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/us-n...-start-guided-missile-frigate-program.663869/
Thank you kindly.
Bilal Khan (Quwa)
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2016
- Messages
- 7,004
- Reaction score
- 97
- Country
- Location
I think the USN will succeed in controlling the long-term acquisition price (by the 20th unit), and potentially, beat their own expectations. The Fincantieri FREMM is a production-ready design, and Fincantieri kept modifications to a minimum. They've done everything right, so the only other big cost driver I can think of is the US adding a new generation sensor suite, or munitions load. Now, I wonder if the US will try marketing this design for export to Qatar, Taiwan, Saudi Arabia, etc (with export-grade changes, but focus on Made in USA).@waz @Vergennes @Joe Shearer @Dante80 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Rashid Mahmood @gambit @TheMightyBender
Vergennes, you are not going to like some of the background stuff I'm afraid mon ami
a) There were two frigates (FREMM and F-100) in the final competition and two light frigates. (LCS-2 and HII). The sinking of the Helge Ingstad pretty much blew F-100 out of the water. HII's secrecy did their proposal in. So, it was going to be FREMM or LCS-2.
b) In the end, the Navy went for the larger and more conventional ship...pretty much killing what little residual impact Cebrowski and Hughes had.
c) FREMM is a good ship. It's a pity Type 26 didn't get a strong enough look (like I was hinting might happen to Waz some while ago)
d) From my contact, number block assigned to these ships is FFG-62 to FFG-80. This may be extended since the class may well not stop at 20.
e) Word on street is that Fincantieri sales office had a massive celebration and still comatose about it. This is one hell of a coup for them. The French must be furious.
f) Why are the French furious one may ask?
FREMM was originally a Franco-Italian project. One thing is that there was originally an agreement that if either of the partners made a sale, the profits and workload would be split sixty-forty between the partners (the big share being for the partner who landed the contract.
The French sold a FREMM to Egypt and when the Italians asked for their share, the French told them that they were fulfilling the contract by supplying a FREMM that had just been completed for the French Navy and building another FREMM to replace it. Therefore the agreement didn't apply. The Italians complained and got the "we just changed the agreement, pray we do not change it further" line.
So the French scrapped the profit share agreement over one ship and now Fincantieri went and landed an order for twenty.
Just to rub salt into the wound, the French refused to bid on FFG(X) because "everybody knows the Americans never order ships from foreign suppliers". (That isn't quite true by the way)
The Italians went in, worked hard, played the game well and got the order.
There really is a reason why people don't like the French sometimes
g) There will be minimum changes to FREMM current design....aided by a lot of the equipment already being NATO-standard American. The primary changes are the EW system and the main search radar, both of which are plug and play. The missile launch system is Mk.41 not Sylver (again pretty much plug and play). FREMM already has provision for a 5 inch Mk.45 mod 4.
There was a deliberate effort made to keep the customization to a minimum..an example of an area Fincantieri played the game well. They looked through the list of likely equipment changes and worked out how it could be done before the specs were released. So they had answers as soon as the questions were asked. The rest of the ship is pretty much 'walk on board and you know where you are".
Most other pitfalls and likely escalations won't be just the FREMM design, but something relevant to all...so it mattered a lot fincantieri working to get a leg in better wherever it could.
h) On the subject of integrating different equipment, apparently any cost over the amount specified in the contract will be carried by the manufacturer. The other difference between the Italian and US versions is that the hull of the US ship has been strengthened and 300 tons of protection has been worked in. That's a lot of protection for a frigate.
i) Apparently the Norwegians killed off the Navantia bid. They sent the US Navy a copy of their report on the sinking of the Helge Ingstad with the hand-written note saying "You really want to buy this?" It is said that the Norwegian Navy and Navantia are not on speaking terms right now.
=====
A few more details:
Replacing CODLAG with IFEP (trading gearing to generator on turbine + bigger electric motor) was considered.
But consensus was that it was too much change. Fincantieri worked out agreement with GE there would be no added cost to switching to american made GE LM2500 over the (licensed GE) Italian LM2500 made by Fiat.
Regarding different sizes for the Italian and French (FREMM) ships. The Italian ships have some internal differences and are built more toughly than the French ships. Had the French offered their ship seriously, that would have counted in favor of the Italian ship and against the French. It was lack of structural strength that did for the Navantia offer of F-100. Especially watertight integrity in the machinery spaces.
Costs w.r.t DDG51:
You get about 3 FFG-X for 2 DDG (construction cost)
You get about 2 FFG-X for 1 DDG (life cycle cost)
=====
Of course more finalized details will only be known in about 2 years time for lead ship final design package. So maybe I will post more then about it.
BTW, the French have done well with their Gowind light frigate exports and they have formed a joint venture with Fincantieri to upgrade older designs. That's another reason why this FFG(X) deal is so important, it enormously strengthens the Italian's hand in dealings within that joint venture.
French are also getting lot of attention over the pricing for Aussie Attack class sub. In fairness to the French, the reason why the Australian deal costs so much is that the Australians have bought a customized design that is basically a nuclear submarine with a diesel-electric power train. Think of it that they are paying nuclear costs for diesel-electric performance. That's a customer decision.
====
@waz @AgNoStiC MuSliM maybe please combine this thread to this one, so things are all in one place: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/us-n...-start-guided-missile-frigate-program.663869/
Thank you kindly.
Joe Shearer
PROFESSIONAL
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2009
- Messages
- 27,493
- Reaction score
- 162
- Country
- Location
@waz @Vergennes @Dante80 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Rashid Mahmood @gambit @TheMightyBender
I hardly know some of you and have copied in the list by @Nilgiri.
DO NOT MISS, on any account, Senator Pauline Hanson's masterful interrogation of a hapless Australian Rear Admiral in this video recording. I can guarantee you will finish up weak with laughter.
There has always been a rumour that Australians carry their brains elsewhere from other human beings, and various titillating suggestions have been made; after watching this video, all doubts are swept away.
I hardly know some of you and have copied in the list by @Nilgiri.
DO NOT MISS, on any account, Senator Pauline Hanson's masterful interrogation of a hapless Australian Rear Admiral in this video recording. I can guarantee you will finish up weak with laughter.
There has always been a rumour that Australians carry their brains elsewhere from other human beings, and various titillating suggestions have been made; after watching this video, all doubts are swept away.
