Final nod soon for Navy’s advanced stealth frigate

[Gessler]

Here is Spanish Frigate

Álvaro de Bazán-class frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But you said US frigate?

Anyway, the Spanish frigate you have posted here has the AN/SPY-1 radar which is a PESA and therefore
lacks some of the attributes found on the superior MF-STAR AESA. As far as radar goes P-17A has the
upper hand.

We don't know exactly what CMS P-17A uses as yet so I'd rather not comment on it.

The Spanish FFG enjoys superiority in terms of defensive capabilities (SAMs) but falls short of
P-17A in offensive capabilities (ASCMs), as this ship too is configured to carry Harpoons while
P-17A carries the superior BrahMos.

While capability of Barak-2 vis-à-vis ESSM & SM-2 cannot yet be gauged until B-2 is ready for
service induction when it's capabilities are fully known.

Personally, I have reason to believe Barak-2 can hold out just as well as the above listed SAMs,
especially when it's supported by the MF-STAR AESA radar.

You didn't count how many Radar, sensor type 45 posses & Type 45 is 10 metre short compare to Kolkata but its beam is 21.2 metre & draught is 7.4 metre compare to Kolkata's 17.4 m & 6.5 m. Then use simple calculation that which ship posses big area.
Type 45 has 190 crew & other hand kolkata would be posses 250 crew then simply think how many automation done in Type 45 for reducing crew size.

You are repeatedly arguing about the capability of Daring vis-à-vis Kolkata, but you are not telling me
how Type-45 has ended up with more weight in spite of it carrying lighter ASCMs, lesser crew, and
more advanced construction methods.

Care to get back to topic?

Its Barak-8 not Barak-2 & Kolkata would posses both.

Barak-8 and Barak-2 are the same missile. Barak-8 is the 110-km ranged land-based version for
use by Army/Air Force units, Barak-2 is the 70-km ranged ship-based version for Navy.

Hence using the term Barak-2 is more appropriate when referring to the ship-based version.

I didn't have problem if a Cruise or anti ship missile is slow but more accurate & destroy their target without detection & have less weight & more range.

Accuracy has to do with the advancement of onboard software and target acquisition/lock-on systems,
it has very less to do with speed.

Presently BrahMos remains superior to all the ship-launched Harpoons.

I clear your doubts about weght in above & don't be rude if someone counter your claim. This is a discussion forum & due to healthy discussion we can improve our knowledge not ego.

I am in for a healthy discussion. But no, you have not clarified how Type-45 is heavier than Kolkata
despite carrying lighter armament (wrt ASCMs), lesser crew, and more advanced construction methods.

There can only be one answer - Kolkata, due to it's heavier armament, more crew compliment, and
slightly backward construction methods & materials (compared to Daring) is much heavier than what
is claimed by MDL or the concerned designers, who are obviously downplaying P-15A's displacement.

 

[Manindra]

But you said US frigate?

Anyway, the Spanish frigate you have posted here has the AN/SPY-1 radar which is a PESA and therefore
lacks some of the attributes found on the superior MF-STAR AESA. As far as radar goes P-17A has the
upper hand.

We don't know exactly what CMS P-17A uses as yet so I'd rather not comment on it.

The Spanish FFG enjoys superiority in terms of defensive capabilities (SAMs) but falls short of
P-17A in offensive capabilities (ASCMs), as this ship too is configured to carry Harpoons while
P-17A carries the superior BrahMos.

While capability of Barak-2 vis-à-vis ESSM & SM-2 cannot yet be gauged until B-2 is ready for
service induction when it's capabilities are fully known.

Personally, I have reason to believe Barak-2 can hold out just as well as the above listed SAMs,
especially when it's supported by the MF-STAR AESA radar.



You are repeatedly arguing about the capability of Daring vis-à-vis Kolkata, but you are not telling me
how Type-45 has ended up with more weight in spite of it carrying lighter ASCMs, lesser crew, and
more advanced construction methods.

Care to get back to topic?



Barak-8 and Barak-2 are the same missile. Barak-8 is the 110-km ranged land-based version for
use by Army/Air Force units, Barak-2 is the 70-km ranged ship-based version for Navy.

Hence using the term Barak-2 is more appropriate when referring to the ship-based version.



Accuracy has to do with the advancement of onboard software and target acquisition/lock-on systems,
it has very less to do with speed.

Presently BrahMos remains superior to all the ship-launched Harpoons.



I am in for a healthy discussion. But no, you have not clarified how Type-45 is heavier than Kolkata
despite carrying lighter armament (wrt ASCMs), lesser crew, and more advanced construction methods.

There can only be one answer - Kolkata, due to it's heavier armament, more crew compliment, and
slightly backward construction methods & materials (compared to Daring) is much heavier than what
is claimed by MDL or the concerned designers, who are obviously downplaying P-15A's displacement.

Clarification on Type 45 destroyer weights more than Kolkata class destroyers

1. Type 45's Volume area = Length x Beam x Draught > Kolkata class Volume area

2. Type 45's crew size = 190 , Kolkata class's crew size = 250

So, its take more automation of onboard system of Type 45 which is also cause of some weight increase.

3. Type 45 posses more various type of Radar & sensors compare to Kolkata class which causes weight increase.

 

[Black Widow]

After the nod the stocks of Isreali defence firms will shoot up, because of the $10 bill they will be supplying $9 bill of equipment. All missiles, sonars, electronics will be imported and so will be the steel. Value addition from India will come in form of basic welding and putting foreign kits together.

Does it really matter?? Do you want every thing made frm India?


No need to reinvent wheel.. Some thing can be bough of-shelf..

 

[Gessler]

Clarification on Type 45 destroyer weights more than Kolkata class destroyers

1. Type 45's Volume area = Length x Beam x Draught > Kolkata class Volume area

2. Type 45's crew size = 190 , Kolkata class's crew size = 250

So, its take more automation of onboard system of Type 45 which is also cause of some weight increase.

3. Type 45 posses more various type of Radar & sensors compare to Kolkata class which causes weight increase.

What you have stated does not increase displacement by 1,000s of tons.

What is happening hear is that you (and me) are debating without knowing what the exact tonnage of
P-15A is. IN HQ does have a habit of downplaying their upcoming surface combatants' tonnage etc.

So it's best to wait for an official word on P-15A's tonnage instead of assuming.

 

[SR-91]

As far as i know, Project 17a has a empty weight of 6700t, @Gessler is right, no navy in their right mind would disclose true tonnage.Where the true tonnage will end up,nobody will never know.Which by the way,is a good thing...

 

[saumyasupratik]

The German Navy's F124 Saschen class frigate have better sensors in the form of the SMART-L long range air search radar and APAR multi-function radar so do the Dutch Navy's De Zeven Provinciën. Western navies have better anti-air capability but lack the superior anti-shipping capability of say the Russian & Indian navies. The Aster and Standard missiles which equip the western naval frigates are better than the Barak 8 which in turn is lighter than the Aster and Standard missiles. The Barak 8 can be compared to the ESSM in shape, size and capabilities. The ESSM can also be quadpacked in the Mk.41 VLS cell in place of one Standard missile.

 

[Manindra]

What you have stated does not increase displacement by 1,000s of tons.

What is happening hear is that you (and me) are debating without knowing what the exact tonnage of
P-15A is. IN HQ does have a habit of downplaying their upcoming surface combatants' tonnage etc.

So it's best to wait for an official word on P-15A's tonnage instead of assuming.

Type 45 has more than 3000 square meter more volume are which is 18% of P-15A volume area & you think it cannot increase sufficient tonnage.

 

[DeathInvader]

Complete the Kolkatas first，which have been in waters for god knows how many years。

You acting as if ur a taxpayer....

 

[Penguin]

The German Navy's F124 Saschen class frigate have better sensors in the form of the SMART-L long range air search radar and APAR multi-function radar so do the Dutch Navy's De Zeven Provinciën. Western navies have better anti-air capability but lack the superior anti-shipping capability of say the Russian & Indian navies. The Aster and Standard missiles which equip the western naval frigates are better than the Barak 8 which in turn is lighter than the Aster and Standard missiles. The Barak 8 can be compared to the ESSM in shape, size and capabilities. The ESSM can also be quadpacked in the Mk.41 VLS cell in place of one Standard missile.

Uhm, what exactly makes you thing Western navies have inferior antishipping capabilties?

 

[notsuperstitious]

@ penguin

WRT the weight debate on type 45 and Kolkatta Class, since type 45 are more advanced in stealth, would it be correct to say a more stealthy shape makes a ship less weight efficient? (more covered space required for housing more stuff?)

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Uhm, what exactly makes you thing Western navies have inferior antishipping capabilties?

Harpoon/exocet missile compared to kulb/yakhont,Also becuase russians always paid much more attention to aship cruise missiels than NATO,this will change with coming of european perseus which is badass.

 

[Black Widow]

Good going NAVY.. If you can make anything near to this I will be very happy..

 

[Penguin]

Harpoon/exocet missile compared to kulb/yakhont,Also becuase russians always paid much more attention to aship cruise missiels than NATO,this will change with coming of european perseus which is badass.

Because NATO has relied more on naval aircraft for anti shipping.?

From as early as the 1990s, both the Royal Navy and Marine Nationale have identified the need for a replacement weapon for their existing Harpoon and Exocet anti-ship missiles. Before that, there was the ANF/ASURA, whose development started mid 1970s. The French already had the supersonic ASMP, to which you could easily fit Exocet wardhead and guidance
http://rbase.new-factoria.ru/missile/wobb/asura_anf/asura_anf.shtml
http://rbase.new-factoria.ru/missile/wobb/asmp/asmp.shtml

Perseus is initially intended to replace the French and British anti-ship missiles currently in service with the Royal Navy and Marine Nationale (Harpoon and Exocet). It is also expected to eventually replace MBDA's Storm Shadow air-launched land-attack cruise missiles currently in service with the Royal Air Force and French Air Force.

Yet, MBDA has developed a longer-range sea-launched variant of Storm Shadow for the French Navy, called Missile de Croisière Naval (MdCN standing for Naval Cruise Missile). To provide a comparable thousand kilometers class range to the BGM-109 Tomahawk, the range of the MdCN (well over 1000 km) is significantly larger than the SCALP/Storm Shadow. MdCN first flight test from a vertical launcher took place on 28 May 2010[19] and its first submarine launch test took place on 8 June 2011

So it would seem there is a complementary subsonic missile as well and it is fielded sooner than the supersonic missile. Which is very much similar with the US approach. There is is the subsonic Long Range Anti-Ship Missile. LRASM-A is a subsonic cruise missile based on Lockheed Martin's 500 nm-range AGM-158 JASSM-ER, with new seeker. LRASM-B was planned to be a high-altitude supersonic missile along the lines of the Indo-Russian Brahmos, but it was cancelled in January 2012. You see this complementarity also in the members of the Klub family of missiles.

Of course, Exocet and Harpoon are missiles of an older generation which at some point need to be replaced. Meanwhile, upgrades have kept these missiles very relevant. It is folly to underestimate them. Why do you think Russia also develop KH-35, a P-800 Oniks contemporary? The latter was designed with defeating the Phalanx/RAM combo in mind. The former is typically deployed in 4x4 rather 2x4 missiles as often found: it relies on salvo firing and overwhelming ship air defences by numbers. I.e. complementary ways of making life miserable for the opponent. NATO does this by using a number of different air launched weapons, including since 1985 some 30 B-52's carrying e.g. 12 Harpoons.


Also, range and speed are no substitute e.g. for superior guidance and stealth. Although each has advantages, neither makes a missile automatically superior.

 

[saumyasupratik]

Uhm, what exactly makes you thing Western navies have inferior antishipping capabilties?

I am sorry, I was referring in the context of anti-shipping capabilities present on a western naval ship and not the Navy as a whole.

 

[Penguin]

Kolkata class are destroyers . P17 are Frigates smartass

Both displace around 6700 tons fully loaded and are multipurpose, though Kolkata has an AAW emphasis and Shivalik an ASW emphasis.