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Fifth Generation Plane Era! Is it really going to be so?

Arsalan

THINK TANK CHAIRMAN
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Well dear members, we have been discussing all the positives of fifth generation plane on various thread of this forum. Lot of debate is being made on upcoming projects. Concern is clear over Indian projects of fifth generation plane acquisition and we have discussed our options in term of chines JXX program. With the fifth generation becoming a hot topic of discussion, the point often neglected is are they actually worth it, I am not making a statement and it is for you people to decide. Let us discuss the topic and conclude whether the fifth generation planes are in real worth of the hype they have created or there can be some other better options.
There may be some threads already discussing individual projects but for MODS concern, this thread is for discussing the overall aspects of fifth generation planes and tactics to counter this era of F22 and all that stuff!

I will appreciate your response and later on we can conclude what it really is all about!!
Regards
 
To start with let us have a brief view of what fifth generation planes really all about,,,
Many take them to be Stealth Aircrafts which is true to some extent, but, only to some…
It is not only the stealth feature of an aircraft that make it stand in league of Fifth generation planes but includes a number of other factors such as high maneuvering by help of thrust vectoring or some other technique, a next generation of radars and avionics with more range and better reliability and weapons that really can think on there own to some extent! All this comes at very high cost of production and then later involves thousands of dollars in maintenance. Currently we only know about the F22 and F35 (yet in last stages of development/operation ability). Many of us think about them as something invincible, it may be true as far as general specs are concerned but the thing is that how worth they will actually be in war scenarios and are they the only option to gain superiority in battle field!
I am looking forward to listen your views in order to proceed with discussion!

The point to think about is, are they here to stay??

Regards!
 
Considering the main purpose of fighter jets is to deliver bombs/missiles into enemy territory, the 5th gen jets are just enhancements to evade radar to safely enter enemy territory.

Nowadays nuclear devices have been miniturized to fit in a brief case. So if we can easily smuggle nukes into enemy territory, and wait until the time & place of our choosing to detonate it, all without the need for $ 100+ million dollar planes (and support structure) -- what is the need for these jets?. Better to investing in mechanized AI highly-manuverable land vehicles that can scale mountains, manuveur though dense forest/jungle, ferry across rivers and navigate through urban environments. That maybe why DARPA has been sponsoring these AI vehicle competitions....
 
apart form this, what more make me think negatively about them is the fact that the biggest edge of the fifth generation planes, ie the stealth can be countered by specific radar. so for me, investing in counter stealth technology is a far better option then investing in the fifth generation!
this will bring down the cost and make a plane capabale of countring stealth of any plane ! ! !

regards!
 
Well dear members, we have been discussing all the positives of fifth generation plane on various thread of this forum. Lot of debate is being made on upcoming projects. Concern is clear over Indian projects of fifth generation plane acquisition and we have discussed our options in term of chines JXX program. With the fifth generation becoming a hot topic of discussion, the point often neglected is are they actually worth it, I am not making a statement and it is for you people to decide. Let us discuss the topic and conclude whether the fifth generation planes are in real worth of the hype they have created or there can be some other better options.
There may be some threads already discussing individual projects but for MODS concern, this thread is for discussing the overall aspects of fifth generation planes and tactics to counter this era of F22 and all that stuff!

I will appreciate your response and later on we can conclude what it really is all about!!
Regards
stealth technology, supercruise, thrust vectoring, advances in sensors, and VTOL Are all the major parts of a 5th gen fighter jet and Currently the only developed fifth generation jet fighters are the F-22 Raptor and the F-35 Lightning II
The Countries working on the 5th gen fighter aircrafts are

India- MCA and FGFA
Russia-Mikoyan-Gurevich LMFS project 1.27,FGFA,Sukhoi PAK FA
China- J-XX
 
X-posting from the Indo-Russian PAK-FA/ FGFA.

During Exercise Northern Edge 2006 in Alaska in early June, the F-22 proved its mettle against as many as 40 "enemy aircraft" during simulated battles. The Raptor achieved a 108-to-zero kill ratio at that exercise. But the capabilities of the F-22 go beyond what it can do. It is also able to help other aircraft do better.

"When you are outnumbered on the battlefield -- the F-22 helps the F-18 and the F-15s increase their performance," General Lewis said. "It gives them more situational awareness, and allows them to get their expenditures because you can't kill all these airplanes with just the weapons aboard the F-22. It takes the F-15's and F-18's weapons. It was very successful, (in its) ability to get everybody to integrate."

Air-Attack.com News :: USAF Details F-22's Capabilities, Multiyear Purchase Contract

Even if they won't be fully invisible for radars they have a clear edge against all actual fighters and specially the F22 with the best and more improved latest techs (TVC, SC, AESA radar) will be leathal.
Of course there will be techs developed to counter stealth , but the stealth technology was developed decades ago (F117, B2) and improved even more, I doubt it will be so easy to counter that, or that such techs will come soon.
The Countries working on the 5th gen fighter aircrafts are

India- MCA and FGFA
Russia-Mikoyan-Gurevich LMFS project 1.27,FGFA,Sukhoi PAK FA
China- J-XX

There are more countries working on such 5. gen aircrafts, Sweden/Saab for example also working on a fighter and many countries developing 5. gen UCAVs.

Russia - Mig Skat
http://www.geocities.com/unicraftmodels/on/mig-skat/mig-skat-ph.jpg

USA - Northrop Grumman X 47
http://www.air-attack.com/MIL/_EXP/x47/x47b_2_20081217.jpg

France, Sweden and othe EU countries - Dassault nEUROn
Dassault neuron image by sfinias on Photobucket

UK - BAE Taranis
http://www.defence.pk/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=450369

China is developing such aircrafts for sure too
 
X-posting from the Indo-Russian PAK-FA/ FGFA.



Air-Attack.com News :: USAF Details F-22's Capabilities, Multiyear Purchase Contract

Even if they won't be fully invisible for radars they have a clear edge against all actual fighters and specially the F22 with the best and more improved latest techs (TVC, SC, AESA radar) will be leathal.
Of course there will be techs developed to counter stealth , but the stealth technology was developed decades ago (F117, B2) and improved even more, I doubt it will be so easy to counter that, or that such techs will come soon.


There are more countries working on such 5. gen aircrafts, Sweden/Saab for example also working on a fighter and many countries developing 5. gen UCAVs.

Russia - Mig Skat
http://www.geocities.com/unicraftmodels/on/mig-skat/mig-skat-ph.jpg

USA - Northrop Grumman X 47
http://www.air-attack.com/MIL/_EXP/x47/x47b_2_20081217.jpg

France, Sweden and othe EU countries - Dassault nEUROn
Dassault neuron image by sfinias on Photobucket

UK - BAE Taranis
http://www.defence.pk/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=450369

China is developing such aircrafts for sure too


Granted other countries are working on 5th generation aircraft. but so far they have fallen so far behind in actually fielding them that the U.S. is already looking at testing of 6th generation concepts. Let me ask you also why have the other countries lagged so far behind the U.S.?
 
Granted other countries are working on 5th generation aircraft. but so far they have fallen so far behind in actually fielding them that the U.S. is already looking at testing of 6th generation concepts. Let me ask you also why have the other countries lagged so far behind the U.S.?

What is new in 6th gen aircraft?
 
apart form this, what more make me think negatively about them is the fact that the biggest edge of the fifth generation planes, ie the stealth can be countered by specific radar. so for me, investing in counter stealth technology is a far better option then investing in the fifth generation!
this will bring down the cost and make a plane capabale of countring stealth of any plane ! ! !

regards!

You are not thinking negatively at all. It is extremely pragmatic thinking. There have been much conjecture and a little research into 'Anti Stealth' technologies. Mainly since the primary powers in the world namely US, Russia and China either have Stealth fighters or are planning to have them soon. The second tier of nations comprising of European/NATO allies and friends of Russia and China are also planning to bask in the reflected glory of their patrons.
Not much work has been done on anti-stealth technologies. But that may change as soon as Russia and China join the fun and games by about 2017/2020. Among the advancements that have been made in the field of anti-stealth, the most promising looks like the The Associative Aperture Synthesis Radar (AASR) . This is a Sweedish initiative which is promising but still has a long way to go.(ARES-Aviation Week)

Details of a formerly secret project to defend Swedish airspace against stealthy cruise missiles using a radical but inexpensive radar system were revealed at a conference in Oslo this week. The Associative Aperture Synthesis Radar (AASR) was approaching the hardware-test stage when it was cancelled in 2000 after eight years of work - because there was no imminent cruise-missile threat any more. It has only recently been declassified and this was one of the first open, formal briefings on the project.

The AASR was designed to take advantage of the principle that a target's bistatic radar cross section - where the radar receiver and transmitter are in different places - may be affected minimally or not at all by stealth measures aimed at conventional radars. In particular, it exploits the "shadow" RCS behind the target, which depends entirely on the target's geometrical cross-section. The radar was also designed to operate in the UHF band where radar absorbent material (RAM) is less effective.

Developer Hans Hellsten of Saab Microwave Systems told the conference that the AASR used a number of novel techniques. Each transmitter would transmit on stepped frequencies so that receivers could tell where a signal came from. This made it possible to determine the length of the signal path, so that if a signal was picked up at several nodes it was possible to determine the target's location precisely.

One disadvantage: the transmitter and receiver had to be on opposite sides of the target, so it could not be detected until it had entered the defended airspace. To get around that problem and still intercept targets in a timely manner, Swedish planners expected to exploit the system's accuracy - it could locate targets within 1.5 m - and command-guide a high-speed missile on to the target.

But because the system used range rather than bearing to locate its targets, the antennas did not need to have accurate bearing resolution. Also, the system's use of UHF, its independence from target RCS and the fact that bistatic systems have long pulse times meant that the necessary power was modest.

The result was a price that caused sharp intakes of breath among the delegates. Each of the 900 nodes was expected to cost no more than 1 million Swedish kroner (about $156,000) and the entire system would be in the 1 billion kroner ($156 million) realm - pretty much chickenfeed by defense standards.

Moreover, trying to destroy an air defense radar with 900 distributed apertures is an exercise in futility. The grid pattern does not have to be continuous, and the designers intended to emplace the modules using the same techniques that are used to locate cell phone base stations.

We've seen many anti-stealth ideas come and go over the years, such as the UK's cell-phone radar concept or the Russian Nagira high-powered radar. But AASR is the first advertised system-level attack on stealth to emerge from a full-up combat radar house - and these are the people - the former Ericsson Microwave, acquired by Saab in June 2006 - who produced the world's first airborne AESA and notched up a number of other firsts over the years.
 
Majority of Fifth generation are pilotless planes...
 
What is new in 6th gen aircraft?
Romulan cloaking system. Energy weapons. Gravity repulsor system. Human and Artificial Intelligence symbiosis, in other words, fly-by-thoughts.

452d071d450211504d0087b8458455bf.jpg

It was rough seas when this alien craft crash landed on the Long Island and the crew was not able to maintain their holds. It felled overboard. The crew was sworn to secrecy and each man received a hefty post war bonus to keep his silence. Their families were well cared for by the US government. Post WW II global demands on the US and the start of the Cold War prevented the US from mounting a salvage operation of the alien craft. Then Sputnik came and the space race gave the US the perfect cover for such recovery. The US Navy sent ships all over the world under the pretense of conducting survey for water landings of space capsules. It was the absolute truth as well as allowing the salvage operation being hidden, ironically, in plain sight.

3c7ce88214e981fd3475410e8e96ce0e.jpg

Once the craft was recovered, the US space program leapt ahead of the Soviets. We actually landed on the moon before Apollo 11. Neil Armstrong was truly the first Earther to walk on the Moon and also the reenactor of the fake moon landing filmed on Haleakala Crater on the island of Maui, Hawaii, my home state.

Haleakala was also a cover as a moon landing training facility.

Conquering Haleakala - Life's a journey - share it with iTourist!
To protect Haleakala, with its rare plants such as the Silversword and other species, Haleakala National Park was created and in 1980 was designated an International Biosphere Reserve. The Haleakala Crater at the summit was used by NASA for training prior to the moon landing because of its unique topography.
I have been on Haleakala many times. The (supposedly) extinct volcano landscape is truly otherworldly.

Anyway...The US managed to get the alien spacecraft airworthy and select few airmen from our allies were allowed to fly it. We find that the 'X-wing' was not very aerodynamic. It was obviously designed to be exoatmospheric with atmospheric flight as an afterthought.

The US knew then that someday the world must know about the truth that 'We are not alone', as the movie said. But most of the world was still deeply religious and superstitious and the sudden knowledge of alien life with superior technology would throw the world into chaos. The evil empire of the Soviet Union must be away before we can release this knowledge. So in preparation for that day, the US government recruited Hollywood and select few talented writers. Arthur C. Clarke and Robert Heinlein to name a few who led the way for the ambitious plan of subtly preparing the world for the inevitable. The 'science fiction' genre was already in the public's imagination but this time it became necessary for the creators to take seriously the new mission for the sake of humanity.
 
Gambit watching to many star war movies and science fiction magazines ....lolzz
 
Not much work has been done on anti-stealth technologies. But that may change as soon as Russia and China join the fun and games by about 2017/2020. Among the advancements that have been made in the field of anti-stealth, the most promising looks like the The Associative Aperture Synthesis Radar (AASR) . This is a Sweedish initiative which is promising but still has a long way to go.(ARES-Aviation Week)

Details of a formerly secret project to defend Swedish airspace against stealthy cruise missiles using a radical but inexpensive radar system were revealed at a conference in Oslo this week. The Associative Aperture Synthesis Radar (AASR) was approaching the hardware-test stage when it was cancelled in 2000 after eight years of work - because there was no imminent cruise-missile threat any more. It has only recently been declassified and this was one of the first open, formal briefings on the project.

The AASR was designed to take advantage of the principle that a target's bistatic radar cross section - where the radar receiver and transmitter are in different places - may be affected minimally or not at all by stealth measures aimed at conventional radars. In particular, it exploits the "shadow" RCS behind the target, which depends entirely on the target's geometrical cross-section. The radar was also designed to operate in the UHF band where radar absorbent material (RAM) is less effective.
Bistatic radar systems are not new, in fact, Britains' WW II era Chain Home and Chain Home Low were bistatic. Conventional radars are monostatic, meaning one antenna array does both transmit and receive functions. In doing so, a monostatic system is a pulsed system as the array must stop transmitting in order to 'listen' for any potential echo. A bistatic system can be either continuous wave (CW) or pulsed. With pulses, speed can be directly calculated whereas a CW bistatic system must infer speed through target's continuous range changes.

The issue for any radar signal is behavior on a surface. On a planar surface, the signal is deflected.

869f5717bc384c73f86115e3da554980.jpg

But on a curved surface, like a sphere, the signal behaved in what is called the 'creeping wave'...

Creeping wave - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In radar ranging, the creeping wave return appears to come from behind the target.
That mean the receiver of a bistatic system most likely will indicate a false range information for the target. The retired F-117 operated on the 'planar' exploit of signal behavior while the B-2, F-22 and F-35 are on the 'creeping wave' exploit. With multiple transmitters, each receiver, if there are multiple receivers in this system, most likely will indicate a false target range. With multiple false target ranges from multiple receivers, how would one know which one is correct, if any? Further, the US is working on active RCS manipulation techniqes. This will allow an aircraft to actually absorb a radar signal, analyze it and transmit false information about itself.
 

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