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Fifth-gen fighter: India asks Russia to resolve tech-sharing, costing

LOOOL Thought i have been telling Indians on here about their so called 'best friend' Russia?:lol: There are no Friends in politics mates only Interests, and unfortunately for India today, Russia interests doesnt match much with India's at all, The only interests Russia has with India is a buyer-seller relationship and thats it. So since Russia has noticed that India is slowly but surely moving closer to the west/U.S /Israel its getting more and more nervous/angry as it wont be having any more arm deals/dollars from India as it used to in the past when it was India undipsuted Patron/Master, and unfortunately for Russia things will only get worse with each passing year. I can bet that in about 15-20years from now Russia will be a minor player in India's defence industry. The main players will be from the west/U.S/ Israel and maybe Japan. So Russia has rightly noticed this inevitable trend and is trying to delay this as best as it can, by trying to make India even more dependent on it, so this involves not transfering its top notch tech to India(even if it was specified in contracts they signed that they have to.lol) so it can keep India dependent like it hads been for the most past of its existence since it got independence from us.

So this is indeed an interesting situation, since in a few decades from now, Russia will have even less or no common interest with India at all(the last one of which is defence deals, which will be almost gone by then). So naturally it will have no leverage over India as India moves naturally closer to the west/U.S/Israel/Japan with whom its interests match more and who can all offer better deals/tech to india than Russia ever can. So India should move on and forge closer defence links with western/U.S/Japanese/israelis companies like it has been doing these past years, But even more so, it should invest more in its own R&D and create its own defence industry through which it can source its own critical weapons moving forward. Afterall, its never a good thing to rely on the good will of other foreign powers (even if they are your 'best friend.lol.:agree:). Only look after your interests, everything else comes secondary(Moscow included.:D), else India will keep on lagging even more behind than it already is relative to its giant/bigger neighbour to the north. Time will only make things worse for it if it doesnt get it acts together by then.:bounce:


India's import from Russia are bound to decrease, but due to growing indigenous capability of India, not imports.


India has very good chance to catch up with Russian design capability in 20 years. LCA mkII would be as good a plane as Gripen E/F, which means that India would have no need to buy Migs. India already manufactures all type of Naval ships including Aircraft carriers ( Gorkshov was our last Foreign Carrier ), has successfully tested it's own AWACS recently.And has indigenous Air to Air, Surface to air missiles, Has recently test fired a 1000Km range Cruise missile. India's BMD system is better than that of Russia ( even though India uses Israeli radar ).

In a couple of decades India would only require to import some cutting edge technologies. This would be biggest factor in decreasing armament import from Russia.
 
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AMCA will remain a wet dream as HAL at present cannot even develop an entry level trainer.

But yes we need to put pressure on Russia to give us more access to technology and be more flexible/reasonable/ with the cost sharing.
Additionally there is no need to rush FGFA because it is pointless until Pak-Fa becomes operational.

When Pak-Fa does become operational they can send a few knocked down Pak-Fa kits and HAL can assemble them and paint our insignias and boom FGFA ready.
 
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AMCA will remain a wet dream as HAL at present can even develop an entry level trainer.

LCA & AMCA, fighter radar and Kaveri engine => ADA / DRDO projects with HAL only limited to manufacturing them
Helicopters & trainers => HAL projects
FGFA & MTA => HAL and Russian joint development partners

That's why...

...HAL can't be blamed for design and development problems of LCA, AMCA, indigenous radar and engine
...HAL is only responsible for the trainer problems, while they are doing a good job on helicopters
...HAL is currently the only Indian company that works on NG fighter projects, which maybe explains why ADA/DRDO are pushing AMCA
 
LCA & AMCA, fighter radar and Kaveri engine => ADA / DRDO projects with HAL only limited to manufacturing them
Helicopters & trainers => HAL projects
FGFA & MTA => HAL and Russian joint development partners

That's why...

...HAL can't be blamed for design and development problems of LCA, AMCA, indigenous radar and engine
...HAL is only responsible for the trainer problems, while they are doing a good job on helicopters
...HAL is currently the only Indian company that works on NG fighter projects, which maybe explains why ADA/DRDO are pushing AMCA

My intended point was more to emphasise on the lack of military tech development capability in India covering all D-PSU.

Now ADA has a 100+ organizations attached to it. We can blame some and spare some the blame. I was giving a more broader point using the biggest culprit/agency as an example.

I am sure if HAL cannot develop a trainer then ADA also cannot develop a stealth 5th gen multi role twin engined combat aircraft in the next decade or so.
 
My intended point was more to emphasise on the lack of military tech development capability in India covering all D-PSU.

That's the point, HAL is not really involved in crucial NG tech developments. As @sandy_3126 often points out, HAL's own design team is not really involved and ADA is running the show, just as DRDO is not only developing most of the techs, but is also the main developer of LCA, AMCA, or even AURA, the only reason why they will be named HAL LCA, HAL AMCA, HAL Aura is, that they are the manufacturer. There are surely reasons to criticize HAL, but not for LCA or AMCA!
 
That's the point, HAL is not really involved in crucial NG tech developments. As @sandy_3126 often points out, HAL's own design team is not really involved and ADA is running the show, just as DRDO is not only developing most of the techs, but is also the main developer of LCA, AMCA, or even AURA, the only reason why they will be named HAL LCA, HAL AMCA, HAL Aura is, that they are the manufacturer. There are surely reasons to criticize HAL, but not for LCA or AMCA!

Someone needs to take the blame for this LCA disaster. The buck has to stop with some agency/agencies. I would really like to see a few people hanged but i will settle for life sentences.

If ADA passes the blame to DRDO which passes it to HAL which passes it to ADA and NAL then even Mk1 will not be ready by the time Su-30 is retiring
 
Someone needs to take the blame for this LCA disaster. The buck has to stop with some agency/agencies. I would really like to see a few people hanged but i will settle for life sentences.

If ADA passes the blame to DRDO which passes it to HAL which passes it to ADA and NAL then even Mk1 will not be ready by the time Su-30 is retiring

Oh I am all for blaming and even more for taking those accountable that messed up things, but not for blaming anybody just for the sake of it. We need to improve ADA in designing and DRDO in development and project management, otherwise future prjects will face the same problems.
 
Oh I am all for blaming and even more for taking those accountable that messed up things, but not for blaming anybody just for the sake of it. We need to improve ADA in designing and DRDO in development and project management, otherwise future prjects will face the same problems.

Well as a result of this LCA project being delayed into oblivion and beyond.
The Mig-23 retired without any replacement.
Half the Mig-21's have retired/crashed and not replaced.

Soon the Mig-27 will be retired and no way 100 Tejas can be built to replace them by say 2020-2025.

This is a fairly big problem. We will be stuck at 550~ fighters (su-30,mig29,m2k,jag) when all the mig21's and mig-27's are retired.

Even 126 rafales won't be enough as we will be getting heavier and heavier.

This LCA fiasco might just cripple IAF in the future in ways most people right now cannot even imagine
 
Just shows that you have no idea of the T50 / Pak Fa development, they are qualifying the systems and weapons now for their production varient, since the early version of Pak Fa is based on this T50 prototype and again they will use the engines they currently have, which are varients of the Su 35 engines. The Type 30 engine was never planned for the early Pak Fa, only for later batches and we rejected their offer for early Pak Fa's and insisted that FGFA will be based on the new engine only. So they are moving forward quiet well and fast in their run for the production, what is moving slow is the development of the 2nd upgraded version, because that includes developments for FGFA and requires us fixing the final contracts.

LOL. Qualification can start only when the Critical design is frozen. That is impossible without the new gen Engine. Right now its in prototype phase with Preliminary design being tested.
 
Well as a result of this LCA project being delayed into oblivion and beyond.
The Mig-23 retired without any replacement.
Half the Mig-21's have retired/crashed and not replaced.

Soon the Mig-27 will be retired and no way 100 Tejas can be built to replace them by say 2020-2025.

This is a fairly big problem. We will be stuck at 550~ fighters (su-30,mig29,m2k,jag) when all the mig21's and mig-27's are retired.

Even 126 rafales won't be enough as we will be getting heavier and heavier.

This LCA fiasco might just cripple IAF in the future in ways most people right now cannot even imagine

Kya karoge itte jahajo ka? kisse ladna hai?

And even if IAF gets heavier, what difference will it make, bill to taxpayers pe ka he faadenge... Woh chahe capital budget mein ho ya revenue mein ..... No one is interested in cost efficient mechanism.
 
If the choice is between buying an overpriced US aircraft and give in to Russian blackmail, it is better to submit to the blackmail.

and how much do you think FGFA is going to cost???
I believe Russians can build a 5th gen radar and engine, but everything else??? they need massive funding and that's where India comes in. they are going to bleed you dry before you even get a prototype to test.

Augustine's laws - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

jets are costing more and more each generation.

and F-35 price is coming down and isn't even in full rate production yet so scale of economy should kick in.
 
and how much do you think FGFA is going to cost???
I believe Russians can build a 5th gen radar and engine, but everything else??? they need massive funding and that's where India comes in. they are going to bleed you dry before you even get a prototype to test.

Augustine's laws - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

jets are costing more and more each generation.

and F-35 price is coming down and isn't even in full rate production yet so scale of economy should kick in.

Did you know how the British managed to conquer India ? ....most of the Indian kings outsourced their defence to the East India company.

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

The COST of US aircrafts is a LOT more than what Augustines law tell us.
 
Two Chinese fifth gen fighters already flying! We need to mount pressure on Putin.

AMCA should be given more fund and put it on fast track.

The more you put money into the project, the faster you will catch us up with your FGFA, pressure Putin won't get any tangible result.
 
scrap Russian and join this, all you gonna do is giving back AP.
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