Fifth-gen fighter: India asks Russia to resolve tech-sharing, costing

[WAR-rior]

$10 billion dev cost for 5th gen fighter?

Too low my bro.

too low.

Some body is selling snake oil.

Whatever. We have commited 50% as part of joint sharing. Now lets not play with numbers like 5 Bn, 10 Bn.

What may be the cost of the development, we will pay 50%. Period.

 

[Sahasranama]

Whatever. We have commited 50% as part of joint sharing. Now lets not play with numbers like 5 Bn, 10 Bn.

What may be the cost of the development, we will pay 50%. Period.

We have committed 50% in developing the technologies jointly, not bearing of 50% of the cost that Russia spends

We need to spend whatever we need to to develop 50% of the technologies. Then swap technologies with our "partner" so that each of us get 100%.

 

[jugad]

Expect more such news as we are closing in on sir Putin's visit. I think Russians will go to any lengths to see the deal go through because if they lose on this one it will be a huge setback and frankly i don't think we'll pull out of the deal no matter what people say but i sincerely hope we do and buy some ready made F-35s spend rest of money on tejas and AMCA jvs. Last but not the least we all know what we hope for isn't gonna happen!

 

[WAR-rior]

We have committed 50% in developing the technologies jointly, not bearing of 50% of the cost that Russia spends

We need to spend whatever we need to to develop 50% of the technologies. Then swap technologies with our "partner" so that each of us get 100%.

Obviously I was talking bout R&D. Manufacturing aspect is subject to local constraints. Indian version will be complete responsibility of HAL.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

India needs to understand one thing.... Russia is an unreliable partner......... they are a lost cause with myopic vision of the world. They'll basically scam anyone with money. Bait and switch is what they are best at (try to understand the last sentence and you've modern Russia in a nutshell)

Bait-and-switch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They were very much reliable in 1971. But yes Russia does play great power games with India.

 

[Sahasranama]

Expect more such news as we are closing in on sir Putin's visit. I think Russians will go to any lengths to see the deal go through because if they lose on this one it will be a huge setback and frankly i don't think we'll pull out of the deal no matter what people say but i sincerely hope we do and buy some ready made F-35s spend rest of money on tejas and AMCA jvs. Last but not the least we all know what we hope for isn't gonna happen!

Russians have already spent the money on developing PAKFA. They only need us to "buy" stuff from them.

Why are people so desperate for F-35 ? I just don't get it.

 

[greatone]

The deal would be beneficial for Russian economy.
If it goes down its their loss. India would jump to F-35 program and get good partners for AMCA.

IAF has very little interest in F 35 because it would be a sitting duck in a scenario where opposing airbase in within 250 km(the safe range of F 35) of our own air bases.

This is one of reasons for short legs of both Tejas and JF 17 and why Rafale would be relevant for IAF even after advent of fifth gen fighters.

Also IAF has tailored its fighting syllabus for two seaters owing to large number of MKIs and it wants to build on that with Rafale and twin seater FGFA.

So F 35 for IAF is a long shot.

IN, on the other hand, may very well be interested .

 

[Sahasranama]

Obviously I was talking bout R&D. Manufacturing aspect is subject to local constraints. Indian version will be complete responsibility of HAL.

I am talking about R&D too.

Production is a long way off. Even for Russia.

 

[WAR-rior]

I am talking about R&D too.

Production is a long way off. Even for Russia.

Yup.

 

[mike2000]

Two Chinese fifth gen fighters already flying! We need to mount pressure on Putin.

AMCA should be given more fund and put it on fast track.

LOOOL Thought i have been telling Indians on here about their so called 'best friend' Russia? There are no Friends in politics mates only Interests, and unfortunately for India today, Russia interests doesnt match much with India's at all, The only interests Russia has with India is a buyer-seller relationship and thats it. So since Russia has noticed that India is slowly but surely moving closer to the west/U.S /Israel its getting more and more nervous/angry as it wont be having any more arm deals/dollars from India as it used to in the past when it was India undipsuted Patron/Master, and unfortunately for Russia things will only get worse with each passing year. I can bet that in about 15-20years from now Russia will be a minor player in India's defence industry. The main players will be from the west/U.S/ Israel and maybe Japan. So Russia has rightly noticed this inevitable trend and is trying to delay this as best as it can, by trying to make India even more dependent on it, so this involves not transfering its top notch tech to India(even if it was specified in contracts they signed that they have to.lol) so it can keep India dependent like it hads been for the most past of its existence since it got independence from us.

So this is indeed an interesting situation, since in a few decades from now, Russia will have even less or no common interest with India at all(the last one of which is defence deals, which will be almost gone by then). So naturally it will have no leverage over India as India moves naturally closer to the west/U.S/Israel/Japan with whom its interests match more and who can all offer better deals/tech to india than Russia ever can. So India should move on and forge closer defence links with western/U.S/Japanese/israelis companies like it has been doing these past years, But even more so, it should invest more in its own R&D and create its own defence industry through which it can source its own critical weapons moving forward. Afterall, its never a good thing to rely on the good will of other foreign powers (even if they are your 'best friend.lol.). Only look after your interests, everything else comes secondary(Moscow included.), else India will keep on lagging even more behind than it already is relative to its giant/bigger neighbour to the north. Time will only make things worse for it if it doesnt get it acts together by then.

 

[sancho]

Production is a long way off. Even for Russia.

Based on what? They will go for the early Pak Fa based on the current T50 prototypes. Engine is ready an proven, radar developed and integrated, NG EW newly developed and now under testing and integration, weapons beeing upgraded and modified for the use from weapon bays, general flight tests completed, in flight refuelling and external payload tests done too...
We surely will see weapon launches from external stations and first test from internal bays later this or early next year, which will give a better idea about the payload capability and the use of the fighter in different roles. It will be interesting to see the final EW config, especially how MAWS and DRICMs can be combined, but all that does not cause major delays from the Russian plans to get the fighter around 2016.
If you compare all this development, integration of systems and testing they did in the last few years on a NG fighter and compare it with what our industry did in the same time with LCA development, integration of systems and testing, you understand the huge difference in capability between them and us!

 

[Sahasranama]

Based on what? They will go for the early Pak Fa based on the current T50 prototypes. Engine is ready an proven, radar developed and integrated, NG EW newly developed and now under testing and integration, weapons beeing upgraded and modified for the use from weapon bays, general flight tests completed, in flight refuelling and external payload tests done too...
We surely will see weapon launches from external stations and first test from internal bays later this or early next year, which will give a better idea about the payload capability and the use of the fighter in different roles. It will be interesting to see the final EW config, especially how MAWS and DRICMs can be combined, but all that does not cause major delays from the Russian plans to get the fighter around 2016.
If you compare all this development, integration of systems and testing they did in the last few years on a NG fighter and compare it with what our industry did in the same time with LCA development, integration of systems and testing, you understand the huge difference in capability between them and us!

And if you were into any Aerospace industry you would have known what production was all about, you would have know better than to assume this. The T50 is still in the testing phase. Then comes Air worthy qualifications and THEN comes Production.

Besides its Engine is not ready, it is making do with Su 35 engine.

 

[SrNair]

We cant go for a deal with Russia until they sorted out our concerns.Russia already fucked up with our patience during INS Viky development.But here we have some leverage .India is their only hope and we should use it for our own purpose.

 

[sancho]

And if you were into any Aerospace industry you would have known what production was all about, you would have know better than to assume this. The T50 is still in the testing phase. Then comes Air worthy qualifications and THEN comes Production.

Besides its Engine is not ready, it is making do with Su 35 engine.

Just shows that you have no idea of the T50 / Pak Fa development, they are qualifying the systems and weapons now for their production varient, since the early version of Pak Fa is based on this T50 prototype and again they will use the engines they currently have, which are varients of the Su 35 engines. The Type 30 engine was never planned for the early Pak Fa, only for later batches and we rejected their offer for early Pak Fa's and insisted that FGFA will be based on the new engine only. So they are moving forward quiet well and fast in their run for the production, what is moving slow is the development of the 2nd upgraded version, because that includes developments for FGFA and requires us fixing the final contracts.

 

[sancho]

We cant go for a deal with Russia until they sorted out our concerns.Russia already fucked up with our patience during INS Viky development.But here we have some leverage .India is their only hope and we should use it for our own purpose.

True for the Viki issue, but our leverage here is limited to the extend of our technical capabilities. They just need to look at our development failures on indigenous engine and radar and the aircraft design problems we have, to understand where we stand in developing an own stealth fighter and the only other alternative would be the F35 which comes with operational and industrial limitations we actually can't accept, not to mention that Chinas developments in this field putting us under pressure to get to a counterpart soon too. So there are several reasons why our position to negotiate is difficult and that puts the Russians at the higher end, but the Ukraine crisis and the sanctions comes in handy now for us, because that limits Russias options for exports even more than they already are. We have to use the momentum now and get more of what we need, although the claims in the opening article are BS and only speculations from unnammed sources. We have to pay 50% to own 50% of our version, not to have 50% of the workshare. If we wanted to do half the work, we would need the know how in design of a NG fighter or the development of NG techs, which we clearly don't have yet and that limits our workshare in the first place, not the Russians. So workshare can only increase over time, just as it did with MKI or Brahmos.