Federalism ‘may be’ on 2023 agenda: Turkish PM

[Neptune]

I live in Holland, so I don't get exposed to many people that know Turkish law. Why don't you explain?

kardeşim avukat lazım demedik. O 3 maddeyi yorumlarsan görürsün. Daha da anlamadan reply yapma

 

[Baykuş]

Slm! Long time reader who just registered

kardeşim avukat lazım demedik. O 3 maddeyi yorumlarsan görürsün. Daha da anlamadan reply yapma

Come on man, you should be able to prove that your argument is valid.
Let me help you by reciting the 3 paragraphs that you refer to;

ARTICLE 1. The Turkish state is a Republic.

ARTICLE 2. The Republic of Turkey is a democratic, secular and social state governed by
the rule of law; bearing in mind the concepts of public peace, national solidarity and
justice; respecting human rights; loyal to the nationalism of Atatürk, and based on the
fundamental tenets set forth in the Preamble.

ARTICLE 3. The Turkish state, with its territory and nation, is an indivisible entity. Its
language is Turkish.
Its flag, the form of which is prescribed by the relevant law, is composed of a white
crescent and star on a red background.
Its national anthem is the “Independence March”.
Its capital is Ankara.

Source: anayasa.gov.tr/images/loaded/pdf_dosyalari/THE_CONSTITUTION_OF_THE_REPUBLIC_OF_TURKEY.pdf​

 

[Inspector Spacetime]

We make peace with our own people, not with those who turned guns on this country. Fvck peace, all those who joined PKK must suffer the consequences of their wrongdoings. This is what it should be.

I much rather have peace and safeguard the future, then being consumed by feelings of revenge.

I wouldn't, this conflict has given the Armed Forces a great deal of experience on asymmetrical warfare.

These are our values, our identity they are destroying. Türk isn't just a word, it's who we are, this is what our ancestors fought and died for. It shouldn't be so hard to understand for you.

You wanna empaty? If i was an enemy general who defeated and invaded Turkey, this would be exactly what I'm doing. You were right this isn't about identity, this is about ownership of this country.

I would rather starve like Greeks, to live in my own country.

Our soldiers that fought for this country consisted of more than just Turks. There were other ethnicity's in our ranks. Even Arabic soldiers fought for us during the Canakkale war. The changing of Turk to Turkiye is not a removal of our identity at all. This is just a law that's being changed. It doesn't at all effect our culture and way of living.

Depends on the motive of the general. If the general that wanted strife, it would promote nationalism among the various ethnicity's and religious groups and then provoke them against each other. As I said before, not all people in Turkey can identify themselves with 'Turk vatandasi'. So it's safe to come to a conclusion that such a law causes divide between us, between various ethnicity's. But Turkiye vatandasi removes this problem altogether.

You remember writing to me: "oh how politically correct you are", well laws most definitely need to be politically correct.

kardeşim avukat lazım demedik. O 3 maddeyi yorumlarsan görürsün. Daha da anlamadan reply yapma

Tamam'da, ben avukat diye birsey demedim ki. Sen bana hukuku bilen kisi taniyorsan ona sor dedin, ve bende tanimiyorum dedim. Ondan sonra'da bana anlatirmisin diye sordum.

Bana yorumla diyorsun, ve benim yorumladigima gore bu uc maddeyi ihlal etmiyor. Ozaman sen, senin yorumunla bana nasil ihlal ettigini anlatmaya calis.

 

[Neptune]

I much rather have peace and safeguard the future, then being consumed by feelings of revenge.


Our soldiers that fought for this country consisted of more than just Turks. There were other ethnicity's in our ranks. Even Arabic soldiers fought for us during the Canakkale war. The changing of Turk to Turkiye is not a removal of our identity at all. This is just a law that's being changed. It doesn't at all effect our culture and way of living.

Depends on the motive of the general. If the general that wanted strife, it would promote nationalism among the various ethnicity's and religious groups and then provoke them against each other. As I said before, not all people in Turkey can identify themselves with 'Turk vatandasi'. So it's safe to come to a conclusion that such a law causes divide between us, between various ethnicity's. But Turkiye vatandasi removes this problem altogether.

You remember writing to me: "oh how politically correct you are", well laws most definitely need to be politically correct.


Tamam'da, ben avukat diye birsey demedim ki. Sen bana hukuku bilen kisi taniyorsan ona sor dedin, ve bende tanimiyorum dedim. Ondan sonra'da bana anlatirmisin diye sordum.

Bana yorumla diyorsun, ve benim yorumladigima gore bu uc maddeyi ihlal etmiyor. Ozaman sen, senin yorumunla bana nasil ihlal ettigini anlatmaya calis.

tamam, bak 3. Maddede "bayrağı, kanunda belirtildiği gibi" diye bir madde var. O maddeye göre Türk Bayrağı Kanunu esas alınır. Bu kanunda da her maddenin her fıkrasında "Türk Bayrağı" terimi kullanılır. Yani bu yasaya aykırı olan şeyler (ceza tayini, ebatlar, kullanım usulü hariç) dolaylı yoldan anayasaya da aykırı olur .

Trk Tarih Kurumu



(P.S With joining the Independece War and other wars, they already have declared themselves as "Turks" so as he said, it's more than just a word)

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

I don't understand Turkish system -

What system do they use now ?

 

[Inspector Spacetime]

tamam, bak 3. Maddede "bayrağı, kanunda belirtildiği gibi" diye bir madde var. O maddeye göre Türk Bayrağı Kanunu esas alınır. Bu kanunda da her maddenin her fıkrasında "Türk Bayrağı" terimi kullanılır. Yani bu yasaya aykırı olan şeyler (ceza tayini, ebatlar, kullanım usulü hariç) dolaylı yoldan anayasaya da aykırı olur .

Trk Tarih Kurumu



(P.S With joining the Independece War and other wars, they already have declared themselves as "Turks" so as he said, it's more than just a word)

Bayrak hakkinda politika'da su an birsey yok ki (benim bildigime kadar) bunu da post'um da yazdim ve bunun hakkinda da gorusumu de belirttim. Turk milleti'ni, Turkiye milletine degistirmek anayasa'nin ilk 3 maddesine aykiri degil diye yorumluyordum ben.

Ve bu konu anayasa'yi degistirmek konusu, anayasayi ihlal etse bile, zaten anayasa'yi degistiriyorsun.

Sure they declared themselves as Turks. I would say I'm Turk too. Matterfact, when I introduce myself in Holland and if the situation calls for it, I say I'm a Turk or I'm Turkish.

But that's not the point and it's not what this discussion is about. It's about the law itself. When they wrote these laws, they made it in the current way. But law's can get outdated, and in this case it did. I would even argue it was outdated back then. Man made laws are never perfect and always have the potential to be outdated, so there must always be room to change or adapt it to the current situation.

I don't understand Turkish system -

What system do they use now ?

Turkey is a unitary state. And what's being discussed is the possibility to change to federal state.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Turkey is doing well with its existing system , why mess with system that works

 

[Inspector Spacetime]

Turkey is doing well with its existing system , why mess with system that works

It's not doing bad I guess, currently. But if it can be optimized to be more efficient, then why not right?

Some also might want a change when looking at Turkey's past. When looking at it's past, you can see that Turkey is less efficient politically during coalition governments. So the current government is looking for a solution for this in a potential system change.

 

[Neptune]

Bayrak hakkinda politika'da su an birsey yok ki (benim bildigime kadar) bunu da post'um da yazdim ve bunun hakkinda da gorusumu de belirttim. Turk milleti'ni, Turkiye milletine degistirmek anayasa'nin ilk 3 maddesine aykiri degil diye yorumluyordum ben.

Ve bu konu anayasa'yi degistirmek konusu, anayasayi ihlal etse bile, zaten anayasa'yi degistiriyorsun.

Sure they declared themselves as Turks. I would say I'm Turk too. Matterfact, when I introduce myself in Holland and if the situation calls for it, I say I'm a Turk or I'm Turkish.

But that's not the point and it's not what this discussion is about. It's about the law itself. When they wrote these laws, they made it in the current way. But law's can get outdated, and in this case it did. I would even argue it was outdated back then. Man made laws are never perfect and always have the potential to be outdated, so there must always be room to change or adapt it to the current situation.


Turkey is a unitary state. And what's being discussed is the possibility to change to federal state.

modern çağa ayak uydurabilmek için elbette değişim gerekir fakat bu ilk 3 madde Türk milletinin temelinin yasalaşmış bir ifadesidir. Diğer maddeler için evet ama bu ilk 3 madde katiyen değiştirilemez. Şey, bayrak konusuna gelince, bdpli vekiller Türk Bayrağının adının Türkiye Milletleri Bayrağı olarak değişmesini istediler. Buydu benim demek istediğim

 

[LegionnairE]

I much rather have peace and safeguard the future, then being consumed by feelings of revenge.

Since when killing traitors is about revenge

Our soldiers that fought for this country consisted of more than just Turks. There were other ethnicity's in our ranks. Even Arabic soldiers fought for us during the Canakkale war.

How many? If you're claiming this you have to provide evidence. Although Ottoman Empire consisted of multiple ethnicities, those who fought and died for it were Turks throught centuries. This was the whole reason why Pan Turkism emerged in late Ottoman history. Saying that Arabs fought Çanakkale war is just hilarious. We all know what Arabs were doing in that time.
Arab Revolt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Depends on the motive of the general. If the general that wanted strife, it would promote nationalism among the various ethnicity's and religious groups and then provoke them against each other.

Wanna see what nationalism does to invaders?
Turkish War of Independence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Deno]

This may seem a bit long but hear me out

I can only speak for myself and few others I am closed to but for me, federalism or autonomy is unacceptable. This whole talks about federalism is to solve the infamous ''Kurdish Problem'' and I can support a solution but things should be done by both sides and not just by Turks or state alone. I have some problems with the dealings of PKK and Kurdish problem in general.

For one, I, as a tax paying citizen who in her life never harmed one piece of tax payed property of the state want to be treated better than a terrorist who killed/tried-to-kill fellow citizens and destroyed billions of dollars of worth properity or a PKK sympathizer who destroyed millions dollars of worth property. One example to this unjust behaviour was the promise of jobs to PKK members who surrendered to our armed forces. Can you think of anything more insulting than this for a law abiding citizen and I am not just talking about Turks here. Think of a Kurdish citizen who doesn't support PKK but unemployed even though his search for job but the ''redeemed PKK member'' who propably killed our citizens gets a job. It is totally unacceptable.

Another subject that causes me to worry is the way our ''Left'' deal with the ethnicities. In recent months, a Bosniak PM said that ''You can't put Turkish and Kurdish in an equal standings''. Her statement was a racist one, none can argue against it and she was justifiably heavly critized for her remark. But on the other hand, a renown lawyer, Ecen Keskin, a Turkish citizen who happens to have Circassian roots, said that ''I consider myself a Kurdish nationalist and have deep feelings for this movement. I have Circassian roots atleast so I am not a Turk''. Can you think of a any other country that has a Racist nationalist who attacked the crushing majority of the country with racist remarks in commonly leftist position such as vice-president of Human Rights Association. Our ''Left'' is becoming nothing more than a proxy title to cover up for Anti-Turkish PKK sympathizers. Most people here know that I am pretty liberal, specially on social issues so I am considered as a Leftist in Turkey but I started to think that if these are mainstream leftists in Turkey, I would rather become an islamist just so that I can avoid being called ''Leftist''

As for my last concern is that I really really don't trust AKP. Everyone who knows a little bit about Turkish politics know that Erdogan is a dangerous man, not because I believe he is a fascist (except for his remarks on Atheists) or anything but because he is ambitious enough to do whatever it takes to gain what he wants. There is propably going to be a referendum in Turkey about Presidential system and Erdogan and everyone knows that the public is against it, atleast majority of Ethnic Turks are against it. Right after these ''peace talks'' started and BDP (Kurdish nationalists) met with Apdullah Ocalan (calling him Apo became anti-peace, coup supporter, Ergenokon member these days...), for who knows why?! Demirtas, BDP leader said that they look positively to Presidental system and would discuss it. It makes us wonder why....

For a solution, I can only come up with one thing and that is referendum to decide the future of Kurds in Turkey. Just let them decide so there won't be a headache for us, law-abiding citizens in the future. South-Eastern Anatolia holds no sentimental or economic value for Turkey and Turks. It is a black-hole in our economy and mental healt with its ridiculusly high crime rate, selling of children to gangs, honor killings, feudal system of ''Agas'', impossibly low education levels, screens of children aged between 5-15 attacking security forces and etc. Sometimes, you need to cut of an arm, i.e: Southeastern Anatolia, and to be honest a useless arm at that for the body to remain alive.

 

[T-123456]

Its not that easy to cut of an arm especialy in this case,what will happen to the Turks living in those areas for centuries?

 

[TurAr]

As i said before, that arm has become a parasite not only because of the mistakes of Kurds but because of the mistakes of Turkish state as well. It would probably be the most beneficial thing for us to cut that arm, but that wouldn't be right thing to do. We are responsible from that part of Turkey just like a person is responsible from his limbs. So instead of cutting it, we should work on how to regain it.

Although, i support the attempts of AKP to treat the arm, but i too do not trust them a bit. I suppose, we have to wait and see what's gonna happen...

 

[Deno]

I forgot to add this to my post but timing is also very unwise. Until now, our security forces didn't have the modern means to fight against unconventional warfare. For example, they didn't have armed drones and modern helicopters such as T-129 or Eurocopter. Few years from now, our security forces will have armed drones and a modern helicopter fleet. It is like retreating when you break trough the defences of the enemy. So unlogical if you don't count the Erdogan's ambitions about Presidental system.

Its not that easy to cut of an arm especialy in this case,what will happen to the Turks living in those areas for centuries?

For Turks, Arabs and Kurds who wants to live in a state called Türkiye, we can find a solution similar to Cyprus. It can do trick

 

[LegionnairE]

@Deno,
I couldn't agree more, except for the last paragraph of your post. When it comes to carrot and stick, I'm more like a stick kind of guy. I for one think that seperatists can be kept in line with employment of a certain amount of violence. First things first, we can't solve Kurdish issue without achieving our military goals against PKK. "Peace" with a terrorist organization is unacceptable.

Secondly, I'm considered a leftist by the rightists and a rightist by the leftists. The reason behind that is exactly your point. Ota boka eylem yapıp yıkıcı faaliyetlere girmekle solcu veya komünist olunmaz. Sağcıların din tüccarı, solcuların terörist sempatizanı olduğu bir ülkedede huzur olmaz.