Federalism ‘may be’ on 2023 agenda: Turkish PM

[-SINAN-]

Mean while in parliment.

Milliyet - Anayasa Mahkemesi

Another diversion tactic by AKP.

 

[LegionnairE]

I think the removal of 'Turk' in the constitution would be beneficial. It is being used as an excuse by the PKK to recruit new fighters. What does it matter if it is 'Turkiye Vatandasi' or 'Turk Vatandasi'? Just go with 'Turkiye Vatandasi' and PKK can't use that argument against us anymore.

Oooh how practical are you. So our values aren't worth sh.t. Would you switch your gender if PKK made it a propaganda tool by any chance? does any part of your brain believe that people join PKK because of the name "Turk" in the constitution? Do you believe your own BS?

BDP gets elected in municipal elections (belediye secimleri). How much different would a federal state solution be in this case?

It will be VERY different.

To be honest, federal and unitary state doesn't really worry me. What I would like to see is the removal of potential bottlenecks in our political system. I personally see a coalition government as a bottleneck.

Well I don't, Israel is run by a coalition government and they seem to be doing just fine. It's not the system's fault if our politicians are dumasses

 

[Neptune]

They wanted to remove the word "Turk" now they wanted to remove the term "Turk" from "Turkish Flag". WTF! Anayasa'nın ilk 3 maddesinin direkt ihlali söz konusu! Siz ne diyorsunuz?

 

[atatwolf]

If Turk gets replaced with Turkey's citizen what will happen tomorrow? Both have same word Turk in it any way. These are temporary solutions like a house wife sussing a family fight. The only way to defeat an armed group is by using force and completely annhiliating them. In 2003's this happened and they were almost gone, but with revival of AKP, PKK got stronger again. Amk ne kadar cok hain var bu forumda yaw?

 

[Inspector Spacetime]

Deleted, to avoid double posting.

 

[Inspector Spacetime]

If Turk gets replaced with Turkey's citizen what will happen tomorrow? Both have same word Turk in it any way. These are temporary solutions like a house wife sussing a family fight. The only way to defeat an armed group is by using force and completely annhiliating them. In 2003's this happened and they were almost gone, but with revival of AKP, PKK got stronger again. Amk ne kadar cok hain var bu forumda yaw?

The reason for PKK being silent during that time was because in 1999, ocalan got arrested. PKK was having internal problems at the time (I even remember reading that PKK actually said they disbanded after Ocalan got arrested). As time passed, they gradually resolved their internal problems, and gradually started their attacks from 2002 onward.

I am of the opinion that every option to solve the PKK issue needs to be exhausted. Using force against them is always an option obviously, but it hasn't brought a solution to the problem for 30 years now. I think it's wise to also look at other options to solve this issue.

They wanted to remove the word "Turk" now they wanted to remove the term "Turk" from "Turkish Flag". WTF! Anayasa'nın ilk 3 maddesinin direkt ihlali söz konusu! Siz ne diyorsunuz?

I don't know where this Turkish flag talk comes from. But I haven't heard anything about a possible change in the constitution concerning the flag. I personally don't see the need to change it, I'll keep referring to it as 'Turk bayragi'.

Madde 1- Türkiye Devleti bir Cumhuriyettir.

Madde 2- Türkiye Cumhuriyeti, toplumun huzuru, milli dayanışma ve adalet anlayışı içinde, insan haklarına saygılı, Atatürk milliyetçiliğine bağlı, başlangıçta belirtilen temel ilkelere dayanan, demokratik, laik ve sosyal bir hukuk devletidir.

Madde 3- Türkiye devleti, ülkesi ve milletiyle bölünmez bir bütündür. Dili Türkçedir. Bayrağı, şekli kanununda belirtilen, beyaz ay yıldızlı al bayraktır. Millî marşı İstiklal Marşı’dır. Başkenti Ankara’dır.

Turk milletini, Turkiye milletine degistirmek bu maddelerin hicbirini ihlal etmiyor gibi geliyor bana.

------------------------------------

If that's the case, then giving away the whole South Eastern Turkey would be the most beneficial thing for us. It has always been the stone in our shoe due to mistakes of both Turks and Kurds. IMO in such a scenerio, Turkey would become a country just like any other Western European country just in a couple of decades, but that's not how things work.

Tek millet, tek devlet, tek bayrak, tek dil is how its work, get used to it.

Türk kelimesinden rahatsız oluyorlarmış o yüzden 'Türkiye Vatandaşı' olsunmuş. Geç bunları...

Do you actually believe it is more beneficial for us if we give away the South East of Turkey?

In the quote, 'if it is beneficial for us' refers to 'federal state'. What I am trying to say throughout this whole thread is, our politicians need to analyze, assess and debate on if a federal state solution would or could work for Turkey, and if so, in what way would it be more beneficial compared to unitary state structure. Depending on the outcome of this they should decide to implement the system, or not. But it seems many here either misread or misinterpret what I write. I also don't believe a federal state solution won't divide Turkey, because there are laws, and obviously we got politics to prevent that.

Tek dil is not synonimous to tek bayrak, tek millet and tek devlet. You can be a single country, with a single flag and a single and united people, but have more than one language, religion and/or ethnicity.

Oooh how practical are you. So our values aren't worth sh.t. Would you switch your gender if PKK made it a propaganda tool by any chance? does any part of your brain believe that people join PKK because of the name "Turk" in the constitution? Do you believe your own BS?

What values are you talking about? These are laws that we are talking about here.

What we must do is make sure PKK doesn't have a ground to stand on. If you look at the past few years, PKK is having trouble recruiting new fighters to it's cause. That is because of the changes happening in Turkey. If you look back at the 90, during OHAL (Military alert), PKK had one of the times where it was able to recruit the most soldiers to it's cause. What we must do is change some laws, like Kurdish in school for instance, and invest in the region. Take away PKK's arguments that it uses to trick people to join it's cause and gain support.

It will be VERY different.

I'm sure it will be different, but in what way would it be VERY different. (and please don't come up with that divide talk)

Well I don't, Israel is run by a coalition government and they seem to be doing just fine. It's not the system's fault if our politicians are dumasses

Turkey has a lot of different ideologies, you got conservatives, leftists, rightists, Kemalists, etc and all these ideologies clash with each other making coalition governments insufficient. Look at how our current politicians talk to each other, all they do is mudslinging. If you look at Turkey's track record under coalition governments, you will see it fared the worst. And this is what forms my opinion on this issue.

 

[Oublious]

You cant cal a kurt a turk! If they dont want it then so be it. In netherlands we have like turkish a dutch pasport. they call us dutch bu i say i am turkish. I am a turk with a ducth citizenship and not more. I dont see the problem turkiyeli.

They are turkiyeli and not turks.

 

[LegionnairE]

What values are you talking about? These are laws that we are talking about here.

I'm talking about the values this country was built upon, stop acting a fool. You may be willing to give up your identity to make peace with terrorists I'm not.

If you look back at the 90, during OHAL (Military alert), PKK had one of the times where it was able to recruit the most soldiers to it's cause. What we must do is change some laws, like Kurdish in school for instance, and invest in the region. Take away PKK's arguments that it uses to trick people to join it's cause and gain support.

It was also the time we put most terrorists under ground. We used to fight, we used to hit them till they cry. We didn't negotiate with terrorists, we killed them.

I'm sure it will be different, but in what way would it be VERY different. (and please don't come up with that divide talk)

"divide talk" doesn't belong to me my friend.
https://www.google.com.tr/search?q=...42,d.Yms&fp=871c436c9c6e24d4&biw=1024&bih=667
And I'm not the one who's kneeling before terrorists and making it seem like a victory. Accepting their terms is hardly winning.

Turkey has a lot of different ideologies, you got conservatives, leftists, rightists, Kemalists, etc and all these ideologies clash with each other making coalition governments insufficient. Look at how our current politicians talk to each other, all they do is mudslinging. If you look at Turkey's track record under coalition governments, you will see it fared the worst. And this is what forms my opinion on this issue.

Every country has lots of ideologies, conservatives and leftists and the ideologies clash all the time. Politicians fail, not the system. But they are so good at blaming others, blaming coup d'etats blaming the opposition, anybody except themselves.

 

[Neptune]

The reason for PKK being silent during that time was because in 1999, ocalan got arrested. PKK was having internal problems at the time (I even remember reading that PKK actually said they disbanded after Ocalan got arrested). As time passed, they gradually resolved their internal problems, and gradually started their attacks from 2002 onward.

I am of the opinion that every option to solve the PKK issue needs to be exhausted. Using force against them is always an option obviously, but it hasn't brought a solution to the problem for 30 years now. I think it's wise to also look at other options to solve this issue.


I don't know where this Turkish flag talk comes from. But I haven't heard anything about a possible change in the constitution concerning the flag. I personally don't see the need to change it, I'll keep referring to it as 'Turk bayragi'.

Turk milletini, Turkiye milletine degistirmek bu maddelerin hicbirini ihlal etmiyor gibi geliyor bana.

------------------------------------


Do you actually believe it is more beneficial for us if we give away the South East of Turkey?

In the quote, 'if it is beneficial for us' refers to 'federal state'. What I am trying to say throughout this whole thread is, our politicians need to analyze, assess and debate on if a federal state solution would or could work for Turkey, and if so, in what way would it be more beneficial compared to unitary state structure. Depending on the outcome of this they should decide to implement the system, or not. But it seems many here either misread or misinterpret what I write. I also don't believe a federal state solution won't divide Turkey, because there are laws, and obviously we got politics to prevent that.

Tek dil is not synonimous to tek bayrak, tek millet and tek devlet. You can be a single country, with a single flag and a single and united people, but have more than one language, religion and/or ethnicity.


What values are you talking about? These are laws that we are talking about here.

What we must do is make sure PKK doesn't have a ground to stand on. If you look at the past few years, PKK is having trouble recruiting new fighters to it's cause. That is because of the changes happening in Turkey. If you look back at the 90, during OHAL (Military alert), PKK had one of the times where it was able to recruit the most soldiers to it's cause. What we must do is change some laws, like Kurdish in school for instance, and invest in the region. Take away PKK's arguments that it uses to trick people to join it's cause and gain support.


I'm sure it will be different, but in what way would it be VERY different. (and please don't come up with that divide talk)


Turkey has a lot of different ideologies, you got conservatives, leftists, rightists, Kemalists, etc and all these ideologies clash with each other making coalition governments insufficient. Look at how our current politicians talk to each other, all they do is mudslinging. If you look at Turkey's track record under coalition governments, you will see it fared the worst. And this is what forms my opinion on this issue.

canım arkadaşım, azıcık hukuk bilsen, eğer gerçekleşmesi durumunda anayasa ihlali olduğunu görürsün.

You say you can't call a kurt as Turk? Why? I don't see that true kurds, lazlar, cerkesler, rumlar or others bark like those bark to change the name of our flag. You know what fellas, you guys are the epic failure despite our fathers whom fight for this country. Sincerely, fuvck you

 

[BronzePlaque]

The reason for PKK being silent during that time was because in 1999, ocalan got arrested. PKK was having internal problems at the time (I even remember reading that PKK actually said they disbanded after Ocalan got arrested). As time passed, they gradually resolved their internal problems, and gradually started their attacks from 2002 onward.

I am of the opinion that every option to solve the PKK issue needs to be exhausted. Using force against them is always an option obviously, but it hasn't brought a solution to the problem for 30 years now. I think it's wise to also look at other options to solve this issue.


I don't know where this Turkish flag talk comes from. But I haven't heard anything about a possible change in the constitution concerning the flag. I personally don't see the need to change it, I'll keep referring to it as 'Turk bayragi'.

Turk milletini, Turkiye milletine degistirmek bu maddelerin hicbirini ihlal etmiyor gibi geliyor bana.

------------------------------------


Do you actually believe it is more beneficial for us if we give away the South East of Turkey?

In the quote, 'if it is beneficial for us' refers to 'federal state'. What I am trying to say throughout this whole thread is, our politicians need to analyze, assess and debate on if a federal state solution would or could work for Turkey, and if so, in what way would it be more beneficial compared to unitary state structure. Depending on the outcome of this they should decide to implement the system, or not. But it seems many here either misread or misinterpret what I write. I also don't believe a federal state solution won't divide Turkey, because there are laws, and obviously we got politics to prevent that.

Tek dil is not synonimous to tek bayrak, tek millet and tek devlet. You can be a single country, with a single flag and a single and united people, but have more than one language, religion and/or ethnicity.


What values are you talking about? These are laws that we are talking about here.

What we must do is make sure PKK doesn't have a ground to stand on. If you look at the past few years, PKK is having trouble recruiting new fighters to it's cause. That is because of the changes happening in Turkey. If you look back at the 90, during OHAL (Military alert), PKK had one of the times where it was able to recruit the most soldiers to it's cause. What we must do is change some laws, like Kurdish in school for instance, and invest in the region. Take away PKK's arguments that it uses to trick people to join it's cause and gain support.


I'm sure it will be different, but in what way would it be VERY different. (and please don't come up with that divide talk)


Turkey has a lot of different ideologies, you got conservatives, leftists, rightists, Kemalists, etc and all these ideologies clash with each other making coalition governments insufficient. Look at how our current politicians talk to each other, all they do is mudslinging. If you look at Turkey's track record under coalition governments, you will see it fared the worst. And this is what forms my opinion on this issue.

My friend, i have no doubt, your heart is in right place...But drop it..I am in %100 favor of Pkk peace talks but this is another thing.. I am in favor of equal rights...a Kurd should have the exact same rights that i have, which they have atm, but this subject is totally different..Turks are the founder element of the Republic..You cant just erase them from the constitution just because to make some people satisfied...This is a red line..May be, in 2023 (May be) if the situation changes we can discuss it again but at present, its not possible...

 

[Inspector Spacetime]

canım arkadaşım, azıcık hukuk bilsen, eğer gerçekleşmesi durumunda anayasa ihlali olduğunu görürsün.

If you feel like you know something I don't, then by all means, explain it.
You said the 'Turkiye milleti' issue was against the first 3 laws of the Constitution. I quoted these laws and said that it didn't.
Now you are saying it is against the constitution, that may be true or not sure, but you did specify in the previous post that it was against the first 3 laws. Even so, this 'Turkiye milleti' change is for the new constitution anyway. So it doesn't have to abide to many (or all, not sure) of the laws of the current constitution.

You say you can't call a kurt as Turk? Why? I don't see that true kurds, lazlar, cerkesler, rumlar or others bark like those bark to change the name of our flag. You know what fellas, you guys are the epic failure despite our fathers whom fight for this country. Sincerely, fuvck you

Insults? That says more about you than anyone else.

I'm talking about the values this country was built upon, stop acting a fool. You may be willing to give up your identity to make peace with terrorists I'm not.

Again you are talking about value's. I don't really know how to respond to that, because it has no relevance to the 'Turk milleti' topic. 'Turk milleti' is a topic about law, and your saying value's (without further explaining it), so I fail to see the relevance.

No one is giving up his/her identity, not sure where you are basing this on. It just seems like you don't have anything sensible to say, so you just come up with confrontational statements like this. I chose to ignore it in until now, but don't be surprised if I do end up being confrontational with you in the process.

It was also the time we put most terrorists under ground. We used to fight, we used to hit them till they cry. We didn't negotiate with terrorists, we killed them.

I'm not critical about the fighting in that time. I'm critical about the effect OHAL had on civilian area's. Curfue's etc. have a negative effect on the civilian population, which made way for PKK to use against Turkey to recruit fighters.

"divide talk" doesn't belong to me my friend.
https://www.google.com.tr/search?q=...42,d.Yms&fp=871c436c9c6e24d4&biw=1024&bih=667
And I'm not the one who's kneeling before terrorists and making it seem like a victory. Accepting their terms is hardly winning.

Like I said before, those 'divide talks' are nothing but scare tactics. What needs to be done is properly analyze the system and see if it is viable for Turkey.
You see it as 'kneeling before terrorists', and as 'winning' or 'losing'. I see these negotiations as potential peace, a potential end to the conflict and potentially save countless lives because of it.

Ask yourself this: 'If you were a foreigner that hates Turkey with a passion and that wanted the PKK conflict to drag on forever. What would you think about the peace negotiations between Turkey and PKK?'

I have also asked this question to myself, and my answer was that it would've bothered me and would hope that the negotiations would fail.

Every country has lots of ideologies, conservatives and leftists and the ideologies clash all the time. Politicians fail, not the system. But they are so good at blaming others, blaming coup d'etats blaming the opposition, anybody except themselves.

Ye but, Turkey is one of the few countries I know of that are ideologically clashing with each other in such a big way. If you look at Turkey's past, you see how coalition governments played out and how insufficient they were.

@BronzePlaque Thanks for your post bro. Many people here are saying that 'Turk' is getting erased from the constitution. But don't you think that is a bit over-exaggerated? Turkiye milleti is a term that anyone can relate to. Why should we alienate the people that might not be able to identify him or herself with 'Turk'? Zorla guzellik olmaz.

What we need to do is not only look at it from our perspective, but also from another perspective. We need to make laws that are future proof, and make laws with our minds, not with what our hearts may or may not desire. We need to solidify and strengthen our laws so provokers can't use it against us. We need laws that brings us together, that means we will have to fight some of our nationalistic urges. Like the changing of the 'Turk milleti' law.

 

[TurAr]

Do you actually believe it is more beneficial for us if we give away the South East of Turkey?

In the quote, 'if it is beneficial for us' refers to 'federal state'. What I am trying to say throughout this whole thread is, our politicians need to analyze, assess and debate on if a federal state solution would or could work for Turkey, and if so, in what way would it be more beneficial compared to unitary state structure. Depending on the outcome of this they should decide to implement the system, or not. But it seems many here either misread or misinterpret what I write. I also don't believe a federal state solution won't divide Turkey, because there are laws, and obviously we got politics to prevent that.

Tek dil is not synonimous to tek bayrak, tek millet and tek devlet. You can be a single country, with a single flag and a single and united people, but have more than one language, religion and/or ethnicity.

Yes i do believe that giving away the South Eastern of Turkey would be the most beneficial thing for us. I would rather getting seperated from this parasite than giving them autonomy so that they can continue to suck our bloods.

If the word 'Turk' bothers a person, no matter what you do, he is beyond redemption. Even if you'd change it, he'll find something else to cause trouble.

 

[Neptune]

If you feel like you know something I don't, then by all means, explain it.
You said the 'Turkiye milleti' issue was against the first 3 laws of the Constitution. I quoted these laws and said that it didn't.
Now you are saying it is against the constitution, that may be true or not sure, but you did specify in the previous post that it was against the first 3 laws. Even so, this 'Turkiye milleti' change is for the new constitution anyway. So it doesn't have to abide to many (or all, not sure) of the laws of the current constitution.


Insults? That says more about you than anyone else.


Again you are talking about value's. I don't really know how to respond to that, because it has no relevance to the 'Turk milleti' topic. 'Turk milleti' is a topic about law, and your saying value's (without further explaining it), so I fail to see the relevance.

No one is giving up his/her identity, not sure where you are basing this on. It just seems like you don't have anything sensible to say, so you just come up with confrontational statements like this. I chose to ignore it in until now, but don't be surprised if I do end up being confrontational with you in the process.


I'm not critical about the fighting in that time. I'm critical about the effect OHAL had on civilian area's. Curfue's etc. have a negative effect on the civilian population, which made way for PKK to use against Turkey to recruit fighters.


Like I said before, those 'divide talks' are nothing but scare tactics. What needs to be done is properly analyze the system and see if it is viable for Turkey.
You see it as 'kneeling before terrorists', and as 'winning' or 'losing'. I see these negotiations as potential peace, a potential end to the conflict and potentially save countless lives because of it.

Ask yourself this: 'If you were a foreigner that hates Turkey with a passion and that wanted the PKK conflict to drag on forever. What would you think about the peace negotiations between Turkey and PKK?'

I have also asked this question to myself, and my answer was that it would've bothered me and would hope that the negotiations would fail.


Ye but, Turkey is one of the few countries I know of that are ideologically clashing with each other in such a big way. If you look at Turkey's past, you see how coalition governments played out and how insufficient they were.

@BronzePlaque Thanks for your post bro. Many people here are saying that 'Turk' is getting erased from the constitution. But don't you think that is a bit over-exaggerated? Turkiye milleti is a term that anyone can relate to. Why should we alienate the people that might not be able to identify him or herself with 'Turk'? Zorla guzellik olmaz.

What we need to do is not only look at it from our perspective, but also from another perspective. We need to make laws that are future proof, and make laws with our minds, not with what our hearts may or may not desire. We need to solidify and strengthen our laws so provokers can't use it against us. We need laws that brings us together, that means we will have to fight some of our nationalistic urges. Like the changing of the 'Turk milleti' law.

you don't get it, if you or any of your family member is expertised at laws and justice, ask them they'll tell you how it's against the first 3 chapter.

 

[Inspector Spacetime]

you don't get it, if you or any of your family member is expertised at laws and justice, ask them they'll tell you how it's against the first 3 chapter.

I live in Holland, so I don't get exposed to many people that know Turkish law. Why don't you explain?

 

[LegionnairE]

You see it as 'kneeling before terrorists', and as 'winning' or 'losing'. I see these negotiations as potential peace, a potential end to the conflict and potentially save countless lives because of it.

We make peace with our own people, not with those who turned guns on this country. Fvck peace, all those who joined PKK must suffer the consequences of their wrongdoings. This is what it should be.

I have also asked this question to myself, and my answer was that it would've bothered me and would hope that the negotiations would fail.

I wouldn't, this conflict has given the Armed Forces a great deal of experience on asymmetrical warfare.

These are our values, our identity they are destroying. Türk isn't just a word, it's who we are, this is what our ancestors fought and died for. It shouldn't be so hard to understand for you.

You wanna empaty? If i was an enemy general who defeated and invaded Turkey, this would be exactly what I'm doing. You were right this isn't about identity, this is about ownership of this country.

I would rather starve like Greeks, to live in my own country.