FATA Situation

[blain2]

Hi Icecold,

This is the million dollar question that all of us have been wondering about---this has been a matter of big concern about the quality of training of the pak army---enough excuse that these are our brothers---these are terrorists and they need to be treated as such. Now why have there not been any air strikes on the fleeing taliban---what is it that is holding the army back---how was it possible for the taliban to take control of the kohat tunnel---I have developed serious doubts about the leadership capabilities and the mindset of the the pakistani army officers---seems like there is always an intentional hold back .

Mastan,

I can put my money on it and tell you that if PA takes the gloves off, this problem of the ragtag militants can be sorted out quickly, but the cost of taking the gloves off in the long run may hurt us.

The issue is not one of training. Whenever PA regulars have gone on the offensive, they have routed the opposition (you cannot hold the issue of a PA/FC convoy held as hostages in the past as the norm.). Use of air power as is being suggested is a big problem for the government from a militant propaganda standpoint. Thus you do not see any government source openly claiming to be using airpower and neither has it been used intensively or at the levels that PAF can deliver it at.

Kohat Tunnel is in an area where hostilities had not occurred. Things heated up after the 4 contracted trucks were hijacked. Army and FC were not guarding the Kohat tunnel due to any specific threat at that time thus the tribals took control. When the Army and FC moved in, they cleared the tunnel unscathed even though the militants had tried to damage it.

I have said this before and will say it again, the heart is not in the fight. This applies to Army officers (all the way up to the generals) as well as the jawans. Until and unless the national support for such actions is aligned with what the FC and Army are tasked to do, the action would be limited.

In any case, here are some pictures of the Kohat tunnel after it had been cleared:

http://www.ispr.gov.pk/images/Big%20Images/28-1-2008-1.JPG
http://www.ispr.gov.pk/images/Big Images/28-1-08-2.JPG

If you've been around the area or see it in the pictures above, you will realize how easy it is for militants and snipers to hide around and above the tunnel (take a look at where the FC operator (on the right) is pointing his RPG-7 and make advance difficult. Heli support was used in this operation with Cobras taking out opposition.

 

[blain2]

This is how these "warriors of Islam" display their courage - murdering prisoners of war after they have been disarmed. And some people have the gall to defend these lunatics.

AM,

The problem here is that these individuals are self-anointed "Warriors of Islam". Also the murder of these FC troops could be seen as "Badal" by these folks. Government troops take action against their folks and kill them and in turn they respond by killing those who have been taken prisoners by them. There is no "Islamic" logic at work here, only perversion of tribal and supposed Islamic values.

Interestingly enough, there is a great book by the name of "Warriors of God" by James Reston that sheds light on the ethics and chivalry of warriors around Salahuddin and King Richard. The warriors of Salahuddin would put to shame the folks being discussed in this thread.

 

[IceCold]

AM,

The problem here is that these individuals are self-anointed "Warriors of Islam". Also the murder of these FC troops could be seen as "Badal" by these folks. Government troops take action against their folks and kill them and in turn they respond by killing those who have been taken prisoners by them. There is no "Islamic" logic at work here, only perversion of tribal and supposed Islamic values.

Interestingly enough, there is a great book by the name of "Warriors of God" by James Reston that sheds light on the ethics and chivalry of warriors around Salahuddin and King Richard. The warriors of Salahuddin would put to shame the folks being discussed in this thread.

I agree with the no islamic logic that you said sir, but what i dont understand is since when did the government started to get worried about the propaganda done by these militants? Shouldnt we be giving a damn about it? And as for PAF is concerned imo they are very capable of striking targets, so why not to use them in the best possible way we can? The point is they murdered our soilders, we cannot just sit and watch while that happens and only react when things get really messed up. Why isnt the PA taking off the gloves, whats stopping them? We know mehsud and his followers are behind all the massive attacks both on the security officals as well as on the major cites with suecide bombers, so why not to bomb them back to hell, though i'm not an expert but if a regular bombing run is done, it shouldnt take more then a couple of days to wipe out the whole tribe(the ones not following will obiviously get out of the area) so that in the long run we dont need to worry about the revenge thing, since there will be no body left to revenge the death. We should have had flatten them a long ago.

 

[Energon]

Again, the primary retardant to a "solution" here is that the tribals are seen as the purveyors of conservative Islamic values who are now being forced to resort to inhumane measures to protect their ideology and way of life which has divine approval. Obviously many people disagree with this, and for good reason; but like it or not, any measures taken against these tribals will be seen as an attack on religious values orchestrated by puppets of the west.

This IMO is what keeps the military, particularly the top echelon who also represent the government from as blain puts it "putting their heart into the fight".

 

[blain2]

I agree with the no islamic logic that you said sir, but what i dont understand is since when did the government started to get worried about the propaganda done by these militants? Shouldnt we be giving a damn about it? And as for PAF is concerned imo they are very capable of striking targets, so why not to use them in the best possible way we can? The point is they murdered our soilders, we cannot just sit and watch while that happens and only react when things get really messed up. Why isnt the PA taking off the gloves, whats stopping them? We know mehsud and his followers are behind all the massive attacks both on the security officals as well as on the major cites with suecide bombers, so why not to bomb them back to hell, though i'm not an expert but if a regular bombing run is done, it shouldnt take more then a couple of days to wipe out the whole tribe(the ones not following will obiviously get out of the area) so that in the long run we dont need to worry about the revenge thing, since there will be no body left to revenge the death. We should have had flatten them a long ago.

Easier said than done. Have you seen the reporting about this problem in the urdu press? Its already fairly anti-government. Majority of Pakistan's literate population reads this stuff and the sentiments against the government would grow if the PA went all out and had PAF integrated in these operations.

The sentiment among the common folks is that this war against the "tribals" is being waged on the behest of the US and not in Pakistans own interest.

Also the problem is not "whole" tribes. Most tribals are caught in this unfortunate warfare due to no fault of their own. Thus this campaign has to be carried out carefully and consideration for the locals as well as being mindful of the other side's propaganda. The last thing that the Government and Pakistan Army need is the populace turning against them due to very aggressive handling of the situation (remember Lal Masjid operation?)

 

[Energon]

Easier said than done. Have you seen the reporting about this problem in the urdu press? Its already fairly anti-government. Majority of Pakistan's literate population reads this stuff and the sentiments against the government would grow if the PA went all out and had PAF integrated in these operations.

The sentiment among the common folks is that this war against the "tribals" is being waged on the behest of the US and not in Pakistans own interest.

Also the problem is not "whole" tribes. Most tribals are caught in this unfortunate warfare due to no fault of their own. Thus this campaign has to be carried out carefully and consideration for the locals as well as being mindful of the other side's propaganda. The last thing that the Government and Pakistan Army need is the populace turning against them due to very aggressive handling of the situation (remember Lal Masjid operation?)

What would you say are some ways to get around this issue?

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi Blain,

For the reasons that you stated, I firmly believe that once you take up this kind of job---you need to strike hard, strike deep, ahcieve the goals, neutralize the target in the shortest possible time.Time is of essence. From the day one that the govt fires the first bullet against the extremists, the clock has started to run against the government.

See, time is always against any govt under these circumstances. Even if takes too long, justified action and killings resulting from that action are not acceptable to the public. The perspective changes, the poilitical propaganda from opposition parties intensifies, the media starts reporting the other side of the story---it is all down hill from there. Public just simply gets tired of the issue and the incompetence of the existing govt. They want a change---and they want the new face to come in and resolve the issue right away. Musharraf is a good man---but his thinking does not go too far. He cannot and does not understand why people are going against him. People have given him too many chances---and sadly he has not delivered---tragically people are going to sell their soul to the deivl---they would elect and side with the devil to do their bidding---they will put Zardari or Nawaz to fulfill the promise---even though they may fail to do the bidding---but Musharraf will be gone and we will be in a bigger mess---.

In pakistan you have the media, Imran Khan, Qazi Hussein Ahmed, PML n, ppp, the attorneys, the judges and many many others instigating trouble and mischief against the govt.

From what I have seen from the response by the pakistani millitary---I think they are very poor administrators---when I talk about millitary---I talk about the army general command and not the air force or navy---there are so many failures by the army at every step---one wonders who is incharge---there is no pro-active approach to confront the problem---why were the taliban able to take control of the tunnel in the first place---how can 4 ammo trucks be hijacked by the taliban---why were fighters or gunship hellicopters not scrambled right away to destroy the trucks. Why don't the trucks have tracking devices in case they are hijacked, they can be tracked---Blain I know that you come from a millitary family---.

Yes, we do remember the Lal Masjid fiasco as well. A fiasco that could not be handled any worse than it was. By the response of the administration, I was very much assured of my belief about the incompetence of the administration of handling that scenario---it is another feather in the govt's hat---I am also concerned how the govt reacted after the death of Benazir---how it didnot react---let the looters and plunderers destroy the country and genaral Musharraf sat on his behind and so did his junior general commanding officer cohorts---everybody knew that Benaizr was going to be assasinated---where was the contingency plan---why was the contingency plan not put into force---was there a contingency plan at all---does Musharraf know about a contingency plan---do the generals knwo about a pro-active approach. Does anybody know about stopping a crime before it happens---if they do then tell us what happened in sindh and karachi---why were so many trains destroyed---. I know they have tremendous contributions at time of the earthquake, the sukkur barrage, the pakistan steel mill and other projects---my problem is that when the time comes for doing their primary job---they are not upto the task. This story is getting too old that we have friends and family on the other side---well if you are conscientious objector then resign the commission. Get out of Dodge city.

Pakistan army generals have become a kind of a "sob story"---( DUKHI KAHANI ). They are supposed to be a killing machine against the insurgents---what are they good at---

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

AM,

The problem here is that these individuals are self-anointed "Warriors of Islam". Also the murder of these FC troops could be seen as "Badal" by these folks. Government troops take action against their folks and kill them and in turn they respond by killing those who have been taken prisoners by them. There is no "Islamic" logic at work here, only perversion of tribal and supposed Islamic values.

Interestingly enough, there is a great book by the name of "Warriors of God" by James Reston that sheds light on the ethics and chivalry of warriors around Salahuddin and King Richard. The warriors of Salahuddin would put to shame the folks being discussed in this thread.

Very True Blain2!

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

7 Arabs among missile victims​

MIRAMSHAH, Jan 30: Militants retrieved and buried on Wednesday the bodies of 12 foreigners who had been killed in a missile attack on a residential compound in the Khushali Toorikhel area of North Waziristan on Monday night.

Local people said the identity of the militants killed in the attack remained unknown but according to unconfirmed reports seven of them were Arabs while the other five from central Asian.

The compound, located about three kilometres south of Mirali town, is owned by Abdus Sattar, a driver, who survived the attack.

A large number of militants had surrounded the site to get the bodies which the later buried in a local graveyard.

“Militants are still keeping the local people away from the place,” a villager told Dawn on phone. He said that unmanned air vehicles had hovered over the area on Wednesday.

The attack is a mystery because it is still not known who had fired the missile.

Some local people claimed that a drone had fired the missile but officials have been keeping quiet.

“I heard the sound of a plane just before the explosion,” said the man who identified himself as Zaheer Gul.

Several places in the North Waziristan have come under attack in the recent past. A house was attacked in Mosaki village in Mirali tehsil in December 2005 in which Al Qaeda’s operational commander Hamza Rabia was killed.

Meanwhile, militants attacked a security base in the Razmak sub-division of North Waziristan on Wednesday.

According to sources, two army soldiers were killed while another was injured in the afternoon attack.

They said that the militants had sneaked into Razmak from the adjacent Makin area where security forces had launched an operation against supporters of Baitullah Mehsud.

7 Arabs among missile victims -DAWN - Top Stories; January 31, 2008

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

Stolen arms recovered from militants in Darra Adamkhel ​

Updated at: 1530 PST, Thursday, January 31, 2008


DARRA ADAMKHEL: Security forces and political administration have recovered official ammunition stolen from Darra Adamkhel.

According to sources, three out of the four trucks hijacked two weeks ago by militants were also recovered in a raid in Kot Chaper along with the stolen arms and ammunition.

Security forces have also carrying out raids at militants other hideouts.

Meanwhile, 40 boxes of bombs, mortar shells, rocket launcher and computer recovered from Islamabad market area.

Stolen arms recovered from militants in Darra Adamkhel

 

[Neo]

U.S. missile strike in Pakistan hit al Qaeda nest​

PESHAWAR, Pakistan (Reuters) - A suspected U.S. missile strike that killed up to 13 foreign militants in Pakistan's North Waziristan region this week had targeted second or third tier al Qaeda leaders, according to residents in the tribal area.

Initial reports said 10 people were killed in the attack on Monday on a house in Torkhali village near the town of Mir Ali.

An intelligence official, however, told Reuters on Thursday that based on information gleaned from tribal contacts there were seven Arabs and six Central Asians killed.

He said the attack was believed to have been carried out by a pilotless U.S. Predator aircraft flown across the nearby border with Afghanistan.

"The missile appeared to have been fired by a drone," the intelligence official said.

The Pakistani authorities have not confirmed the attack, and the Pentagon has denied taking any action, but the Defense Department does not speak for the Central Intelligence Agency, which operates Predators that the tribesmen say carried out the attack late on Monday.

Villagers saw two drones flying over the area before the attack. They didn't see the missile being fired but one heard a plane's engine before the explosion.

Intelligence officials said the area is controlled by Islamist militants and too dangerous for security forces to go. After the attack, militants surrounded the area and barred anyone from going near the house.

Ahmed Aziz, a 70-year-old resident, told Reuters that the militants also stopped villagers from attending the funerals, which was a sign that those killed were all foreigners.

"When local people die, they don't stop anyone from attending their funerals," Aziz said.

Tribesmen in the area said a deputy of Abu Laith al Libi, a senior al Qaeda leader, had been staying there and was among the dead, according to the intelligence official.

"The latest information we have from the area is that a second-in-command to al Libi was among those killed," he said.

A leading Pakistani daily, The News, reported that the strike had targeted Libi and another senior figure, Obaidah al Masri, though neither was present at the time of the attack according to a senior Taliban commander quoted by the newspaper.

Libi and Masri were promoted up the al Qaeda ranks due to successful U.S. and Pakistani operations in the past to catch or kill the guerrilla network's second tier leaders.

U.S. forces in Afghanistan have launched similar attacks on al Qaeda targets on the Pakistani side of the border several times in recent years.

If it was a U.S. drone attack, the lack of confirmation is not unusual. Pakistan says it will not tolerate violations of its territorial sovereignty and reports of such attacks are embarrassing for the U.S.-Pakistani alliance.

U.S. missile strike in Pakistan hit al Qaeda nest - Yahoo! News

 

[S-2]

A great series of posts, gentlemen. Thank you for the good read and interesting thoughts.

 

[blain2]

Will respond to Mastan and Energon's posts in a bit, but just wanted to add this to the thread. In addition to the ongoing military action, there are some internal Taliban politics being played out in the tribal areas as well. I think slowly the military pressure is building up against Mehsud and team and pretty soon we will see some adjustments on the ground.

Some recent reports:


Mullah Omar flays 'spies' slaughtering

Our Staff Reporter
PESHAWAR-Taliban Supreme Leader Mullah Mohammad Omar Akhund through a decree denounced slaughtering of the alleged spies at the hands of what he called Taliban and Mujahideen engaged in resistance against the US-led allies in the region.
“No one is allowed to slaughter any one,” Mullah Mohammad Omar Akhund remarked through a decree, made public to media by Taliban commander Maulvi Mohammad Rasool. Maulvi Mohammad Rasool is Taliban commander for southern provinces of Afghanistan.
According to spokesman, Mullah Mohammad Omar Akhund has regretted “slaughtering of the alleged spies in Afghanistan and Pakistan.” In the recent past, Taliban operating on both sides of the Durand Line indulged in slaughtering of a large number of the alleged spies.
While opposing slaughtering of the human beings, Mullah Omar reminded that a 40-page comprising 75 clauses “War Procedure” had already been circulated. There is no space for slaughtering of those who are either associated with the US-led allied troops or are associated with the Government.
Mullah Omar made it clear that no commander or individual among the Taliban has the right either to slaughter or execute any person on any charge or in any circumstances. Only an Islamic court has the right to award capital punishment to any accused after his formal trial. Similarly, the executing authorities in accordance with the Islamic court verdict have the power to execute the accused with gun.
Though inside Afghanistan, the militants have slaughtered a number of persons who according to them were involved in spying for the US forces, yet the matter is different in Pakistan. In regions like North and South Waziristan, Mohmand and Bajaur Agencies and narrow tribal strip of Dara Adam Khel, the militants calling themselves Taliban or Mujahideen engaged in resistance against the security forces have slaughtered a large number of the security forces personnel and civilians. Even the civilians included common people from Shia school of thought belonging to Hangu and Kurram Agency. Such a slaughtering is damaging the image of these self-styled Taliban and Mujahideen.
Mansoor Dad Ullah, brother of the then Taliban commander, was recently removed from his office by Maulvi Omar. Besides others he was also charged with ordering slaughter of two alleged spies.

Mehsud offers conditional talks

LAHORE: Militant commander Baitullah Mehsud has extended a conditional offer to the government to stop his aggressive activities, a private TV channel reported. Geo News quoted official sources as saying that Mehsud has told the government that he could halt terrorist actions if the key commanders and militants arrested by security forces were released. Senator Saleh Shah told the channel on Saturday that Mehsud had authorised him to negotiate with the government, adding that he would discuss the matter with the government at NWFP Governor’s House today (Sunday). Separately, the Interior Ministry did not confirm or deny any such contact between Mehsud and the government. daily times monitor

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

Militants’ hideouts destroyed in Darra Adamkhel​

Updated at: 1540 PST, Sunday, February 03, 2008

DARRA ADAMKHEL: The security forces and political administration destroyed the hideouts of the militants in Darra Adamkhel on Sunday.

According to sources, various hideouts of the militants were captured during the recent operation in the Bostikhel Samandi Fair.

After recovering a huge cache of ammunitions, weaponry and other thing, the security forces destroyed all the hideouts by blowing them up with gunpowder.

Militants’ hideouts destroyed in Darra Adamkhel

 

[MrConcerned]

All this reports and action beg the question:

These evil men have had so many camps, bases, weapon caches, why have they been allowed to build and man these resources for so long?

Surely the PA must have known of them, FATA is not huge and there are agents everywhere, so why did we never act?

It's the Red Mosque debacle all over again.

Did we really think that we could have prolonged economic growth with these people spreading like an inkblot and affecting trade and relations with neighbouring countries?

Did Musharaff want to control them eventually? Did he want to eat his cake and have it too?