F22P Zulfiqar: Debunking Propaganda

[iLION12345_1]

Maybe allies, but not without reservations, even the old ship 054A designed 20 years ago, those 054a launched at the same time as 054ap also have aesa fire control radar and new active and passive sonar. The 054ap only has the SR2410C as an export model.

You are funny my friend. Are you trying to imply that of all things China has sold or has tried to sell to Pakistan, that one radar is an example of them not trusting Pakistan with sensitive technology?

I for one also strongly disagree with some of the Pakistani members on this forum who think anything China makes is open and available to Pakistan like J20s or destroyers or things of the sort, but what you’re using is not a good example. Pakistan spent half of what it did on 054As than it did on Babur, even though that’s a smaller ship. Why? Because it’s the better ship. That’s why they bought ToT rights and are putting their weapons of choice on it. 054A was just to fill the numbers, as it is for the PLAN as well. That’s not to say the 054As latest fire controls are bad, not at all, that’s just to say your reason for PN not getting the newest FCS is not a valid one.

 

[huanghong]

You are funny my friend. Are you trying to imply that of all things China has sold or has tried to sell to Pakistan, that one radar is an example of them not trusting Pakistan with sensitive technology?

I for one also strongly disagree with some of the Pakistani members on this forum who think anything China makes is open and available to Pakistan like J20s or destroyers or things of the sort, but what you’re using is not a good example. Pakistan spent half of what it did on 054As than it did on Babur, even though that’s a smaller ship. Why? Because it’s the better ship. That’s why they bought ToT rights and are putting their weapons of choice on it. 054A was just to fill the numbers, as it is for the PLAN as well. That’s not to say the 054As latest fire controls are bad, not at all, that’s just to say your reason for PN not getting the newest FCS is not a valid one.

Therefore, we can see that the military equipment actually exported to Pakistan are weapons that have been approved for export by the military for a long time, but they will not be the latest weapons and equipment used by themselves.

You are funny my friend. Are you trying to imply that of all things China has sold or has tried to sell to Pakistan, that one radar is an example of them not trusting Pakistan with sensitive technology?

I for one also strongly disagree with some of the Pakistani members on this forum who think anything China makes is open and available to Pakistan like J20s or destroyers or things of the sort, but what you’re using is not a good example. Pakistan spent half of what it did on 054As than it did on Babur, even though that’s a smaller ship. Why? Because it’s the better ship. That’s why they bought ToT rights and are putting their weapons of choice on it. 054A was just to fill the numbers, as it is for the PLAN as well. That’s not to say the 054As latest fire controls are bad, not at all, that’s just to say your reason for PN not getting the newest FCS is not a valid one.

As for funding, that's not a problem, if what I see Pakistan's offer of $350 million per 054 is correct, it's not cheaper than the latest batch of 054a.

 

[etylo]

Have you ever tried taking the middle path and realizing that both sides have their goods and bands and that neither side cares for Muslims or human life because religion and humanity doesn’t matter in the race for national interests? China and the USA treat Muslims about the same. And Pakistan will continue to deal with both, because China or the middle East’s Muslims are not our problem, we cannot even take care of our own Muslims. Why do you want Pakistan, the country rife with religious intolerance, where people will lynch just about anyone on the street, to be the champion for Muslims being killed in China by China or Muslims being killed in the Middle East by the west?
Frankly Pakistan could learn a thing or two from both China and USA about how to worry about foreign issues; by not giving a shit and focusing on its own.

We all know the West led by the US evil design on China these days, that is to totally destroy China, China is their number one enemy now. So, you trust the West's narrative that Chinese are committing heinous atrocities such as genocides of millions of Uighers ? If that is the case, there should be millions of Uighers escaping or running away from China to the neighbouring countries as in all previous cases happened in history throughout the world, yet have you found a single person of Uighers escaping to the the neighbouring countries ? None ! Plus, the west led by the US has a full history of making blatant lies in order to destroy other countries such best examples are they fabricated that North Vietnam navy attacked US navy in south China sea in the 1960 in order to attack North Vietnam, and who can forget the US used a bottle of detergent to prove or blatantly lie that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction in order to wage a war on Iraq. Also, you said China and US treat Muslims the same, you must totally ignorant,. Did China ever invade or bomb to the the hell any Muslim countries ? NO ! But, the US did many times to many Muslim countries in the past 40 years and you Muslims are OK with that I think to have the conclusion that USA and China are the same to Muslims. He lives in the West for long, so it's very possible that he is brain washed by the ever lying Western govs and media about China.

 

[iLION12345_1]

Therefore, we can see that the military equipment actually exported to Pakistan are weapons that have been approved for export by the military for a long time, but they will not be the latest weapons and equipment used by themselves.


As for funding, that's not a problem, if what I see Pakistan's offer of $350 million per 054 is correct, it's not cheaper than the latest batch of 054a.

Are you sure about that? I don’t recall seeing any other countries getting the Pakistani version of the VT-4, HQ-9 and now J-10C, sure they’ll be put up for export later, but not before they’re sold to Pakistan. And of course they’re cleared for export…they’re being exported after all??
I didn’t say China sells it’s best tech to Pakistan either, Pakistan will never have access to things like the J-20. I only meant that the specific example you were using is incorrect.

I didn’t say funding was a problem for the PN either, we don’t know how much they bought the 054A for, but we do know it was considerably less than the Babur and Jinnah class, and they didn’t buy ToT for 054A either unlike those other two, simply because those two are better ships that are more worth spending the money on (to modify them and equip better weaponry) and getting ToT for. 054A was meant to be the cheaper option to fill numbers with. Where Pakistan didn’t have other or better options, it 100% went for ToT and modifications on Chinese options too, a good example is the Hangor class submarines…which are having trouble because the China cannot export the powerplant if I am not mistaken?

 

[huanghong]

Are you sure about that? I don’t recall seeing any other countries getting the Pakistani version of the VT-4, HQ-9 and now J-10C, sure they’ll be put up for export later, but not before they’re sold to Pakistan. And of course they’re cleared for export…they’re being exported after all??
I didn’t say China sells it’s best tech to Pakistan either, Pakistan will never have access to things like the J-20. I only meant that the specific example you were using is incorrect.

I didn’t say funding was a problem for the PN either, we don’t know how much they bought the 054A for, but we do know it was considerably less than the Babur and Jinnah class, and they didn’t buy ToT for 054A either unlike those other two, simply because those two are better ships that are more worth spending the money on (to modify them and equip better weaponry) and getting ToT for. 054A was meant to be the cheaper option to fill numbers with. Where Pakistan didn’t have other or better options, it 100% went for ToT and modifications on Chinese options too, a good example is the Hangor class submarines…which are having trouble because the China cannot export the powerplant if I am not mistaken?

There are other sellers for vt-4 and hq-9.
Two Central Asian countries received HQ-9 early,
Morocco in The HQ-9 was purchased in 2017.
Thailand purchased the VT-4 in 2016.
Nigeria purchased the VT-4 in 2018.

As for the version, each country has its own needs. Pakistan has its own version and others can also. The cost of the 054Ap is much lower than the Babur and Jinnah grades, which does not mean that it is lower than the 054A of the same period. Why not choose newer equipment when the funds are sufficient? After all, there is no inheritance in Pakistan, and there is no need to consider the consistency of existing equipment. The obvious reason, then, is that China doesn't sell the latest electronics.

The problem with Chinese submarines is that customers are asking for German-made MTU engines, and now Germany is reluctant to sell them. And China has its own submarine engines, depending on whether customers are willing to replace them.

 

[iLION12345_1]

There are other sellers for vt-4 and hq-9.
Two Central Asian countries received HQ-9 early,
Morocco in The HQ-9 was purchased in 2017.
Thailand purchased the VT-4 in 2016.
Nigeria purchased the VT-4 in 2018.

As for the version, each country has its own needs. Pakistan has its own version and others can also. The cost of the 054Ap is much lower than the Babur and Jinnah grades, which does not mean that it is lower than the 054A of the same period. Why not choose newer equipment when the funds are sufficient? After all, there is no inheritance in Pakistan, and there is no need to consider the consistency of existing equipment. The obvious reason, then, is that China doesn't sell the latest electronics.

The problem with Chinese submarines is that customers are asking for German-made MTU engines, and now Germany is reluctant to sell them. And China has its own submarine engines, depending on whether customers are willing to replace them.

I’ve explained thrice now why Pakistan put more funds into the other models and not the 054A. I think that explanation was sufficient. Why would Pakistan spend more money on equipping the Babur and Jinnah with more advanced weapons, redesigning them entirely to its own needs and getting ToT, when the same option could have been available with the 054A? China clearly has no issue redesigning their platforms to Pakistani needs (even modern ones like VT4 and J10C if images are to be believed) nor does it have an issue selling most of what can be put on 054A to Pakistan (China has already sold more advanced AESA ground radars and HQ9 SAMS to Pakistan). It’s simply a matter of what the more modern design and more future proof platform was.
Again, this is not a criticism of China or its tech, I know what they can make. It’s simply a rational explanation as to why 054A simply isn’t the best choice to put money into anymore, it’s a dated design, one that is sufficient for China because of their advanced destroyers.

PS: Pakistan as a whole is always short on funds

I will simply recall my previous statement about other countries not getting the same versions of Chinese weaponry than Pakistan does, at least not as early as Pakistan does. And I’ll leave it at that, it’s enough for people to understand what I mean. Pakistan still does not and will not get access to the best Chinese tech, that’s obvious and understandable, but it would still be naive to assume it does not get access to certain things other nations don’t. Especially not at the prices, terms and times Pakistan does, Pakistans versions are not ordinary, and that’s more China just looking for its own benefit by arming Pakistan to deal with india, not because China has any sort of commitment to Pakistan. China has a history of sending its weapons to Pakistan for trials, then improving them and bringing them back to make an actual sale, going all the way back to F6s, Q5s and Type 59/69s to SH15, VT4, J10 and the list goes on. This is also not because Pakistan has something really special to offer, it’s simply another example of China being very smart, by integrating the knowledge Pakistan has gained training with western and other forces that China cannot train with into their tech instead of acting like what they make is already perfect. It’s a win-win for Pakistan and China because it gets Pakistan a weapon tailored to them and China a third party opinion on how to improve things from someone who knows their adversary well.

As for the last statement, you tell me why all the customers want German engines over Chinese ones then, despite the Chinese ones being cheaper I assume.

 

[huanghong]

I’ve explained thrice now why Pakistan put more funds into the other models and not the 054A. I think that explanation was sufficient. Why would Pakistan spend more money on equipping the Babur and Jinnah with more advanced weapons, redesigning them entirely to its own needs and getting ToT, when the same option could have been available with the 054A? China clearly has no issue redesigning their platforms to Pakistani needs (even modern ones like VT4 and J10C if images are to be believed) nor does it have an issue selling most of what can be put on 054A to Pakistan (China has already sold more advanced AESA ground radars and HQ9 SAMS to Pakistan). It’s simply a matter of what the more modern design and more future proof platform was.
Again, this is not a criticism of China or its tech, I know what they can make. It’s simply a rational explanation as to why 054A simply isn’t the best choice to put money into anymore, it’s a dated design, one that is sufficient for China because of their advanced destroyers.

PS: Pakistan as a whole is always short on funds

I will simply recall my previous statement about other countries not getting the same versions of Chinese weaponry than Pakistan does, at least not as early as Pakistan does. And I’ll leave it at that, it’s enough for people to understand what I mean. Pakistan still does not and will not get access to the best Chinese tech, that’s obvious and understandable, but it would still be naive to assume it does not get access to certain things other nations don’t. Especially not at the prices, terms and times Pakistan does, Pakistans versions are not ordinary, and that’s more China just looking for its own benefit by arming Pakistan to deal with india, not because China has any sort of commitment to Pakistan. China has a history of sending its weapons to Pakistan for trials, then improving them and bringing them back to make an actual sale, going all the way back to F6s, Q5s and Type 59/69s to SH15, VT4, J10 and the list goes on. This is also not because Pakistan has something really special to offer, it’s simply another example of China being very smart, by integrating the knowledge Pakistan has gained training with western and other forces that China cannot train with into their tech instead of acting like what they make is already perfect. It’s a win-win for Pakistan and China because it gets Pakistan a weapon tailored to them and China a third party opinion on how to improve things from someone who knows their adversary well.

As for the last statement, you tell me why all the customers want German engines over Chinese ones then, despite the Chinese ones being cheaper I assume.

Regarding submarine engines, it is quite normal that customers want to use reputable German engines rather than untouched Chinese engines, even if these engines have been operating on Yuan-class submarines for more than 10 years. But, like the T129, when customers find out that the West has closed the door on them, they have to pick up what they had left behind.
Regarding the hq-9's AESA radar and systems, this fits with what I said earlier, the military allows the sale of older equipment that is not the latest version. The actual HQ-9b sold at the Zhuhai Airshow last year has better radar and longer range than the Pakistani HQ-9.

 

[siegecrossbow]

Regarding submarine engines, it is quite normal that customers want to use reputable German engines rather than untouched Chinese engines, even if these engines have been operating on Yuan-class submarines for more than 10 years. But, like the T129, when customers find out that the West has closed the door on them, they have to pick up what they had left behind.

I read the issue is that the Chinese engines operating on Yuan class for over a decade are still based on German design, so they are covered by German IP despite the fact that it is entirely made in China. The domestic alternative offered to Thailand is a completely different design, which may explain their reticence.

 

[huanghong]

I read the issue is that the Chinese engines operating on Yuan class for over a decade are still based on German design, so they are covered by German IP despite the fact that it is entirely made in China. The domestic alternative offered to Thailand is a completely different design, which may explain their reticence.

Look at the parliament's questioning of the Thai military that, according to the contract, should be equipped with German-made engines, not Chinese ones.

 

[siegecrossbow]

Look at the parliament's questioning of the Thai military that, according to the contract, should be equipped with German-made engines, not Chinese ones.

Right. But my point is that if the Thai relent and want the version China has on the Yuan, they technically can't based on the contract.

 

[huanghong]

Right. But my point is that if the Thai relent and want the version China has on the Yuan, they technically can't based on the contract.

In fact, the MWM 620 replacement engine proposed by China is what you call the engine used on the Yuan level based on German technology, which itself has been certified by MTU. If Germany could claim jurisdiction over intellectual property, China would not use it as an alternative。
The problem is that the Thai military is under a lot of pressure on submarine contracts and has been accused of all kinds from the beginning. It is difficult for them to take a step back and give others more abusive material.

 

[siegecrossbow]

In fact, the MWM 620 replacement engine proposed by China is what you call the engine used on the Yuan level based on German technology, which itself has been certified by MTU. If Germany could claim jurisdiction over intellectual property, China would not use it as an alternative。
The problem is that the Thai military is under a lot of pressure on submarine contracts and has been accused of all kinds from the beginning. It is difficult for them to take a step back and give others more abusive material.

Right. I think they are using it as an excuse to back out of the deal without incurring a penalty fee.

 

[huanghong]

Right. I think they are using it as an excuse to back out of the deal without incurring a penalty fee.

Yes, Thailand has every reason to stop the contract. This is indeed China's mistake. When signing the contract, it did not confirm in advance whether the promised third-party equipment could be exported normally.

 

[mili]

Yes, Thailand has every reason to stop the contract. This is indeed China's mistake. When signing the contract, it did not confirm in advance whether the promised third-party equipment could be exported normally.

lol, both sides knew very well there would be no German engine.
This is just a little show for the opposition. The deal will go ahead with Chinese engine.

 

[CSAW]

"It was around 2004 - Type 053H3 Variant, using older generation subsystems compared to contemporary ships. PN got the F-22P for moderate cost, likely in the range of Mn$150 per ship Excl Munition / Helis. Chinese even offered a loan to help the deal go through.

Its seems as a 'conscious decision' by Pakistan Military to keep a balance of Western & Chinese equipment in inventory - which dictates Cost - Value - Technology transfer equation to remain optimised.

Pakistan Military has experienced Embargo / Sanctions which hampers Availability during Conflict. Hence the approach was to use a Base design from Chinese industry and optimise it with sub - systems or improvements focused from usage of Western equipment and Combat exposure.

There have been some unconfirmed reports of Pakistan Navy Upgrade plans regarding the legacy F-22P frigates ,once the highly efficient Babar and advanced Type 054 A/P Inductions are almost complete.

This development if true, along with AGOSTA 90B Submarine upgrade from Turkiye. With Geo - Political situation as it is and state of economy, China and Turkiye would remain as the key defense related partners for Pakistan military in foreseeable future.

Going forward acquiring Compact advance Air Defense Capabilities, developing the new LRMPA Fleet and AA/AD based Anti Ship Ballistic Missile P-282 offensive deployment would remain key force multipliers - Strategic initiatives for Pakistan Navy."

=============================

Pakistan Navy upgrading type zulfiquar class frigate

The Pakistan Navy is upgrading its Zulfiquar-class guided missile frigates with improvements in Electronic Warfare (EW) systems, SATCOM and other electronics. The Pakistan Navy has acquired the ASELSAN ARES 2NCL-Extended Electronic Support Measure Systems, which are one of the new systems being...

defence.pk