F16/BLOCK 70 in USA Magazine

[el nino]

http://www.****************/news/pu...Will_Plug_India_s_Combat_Jet_Gap100016686.php

TO HJ786

Please read the hyper link re both the upgrade to mirage 2000 and very keenly the MMRCA deal.


and note the source its not indian ITS NEUTRAL

" DON,T TAKE OFFENCE HJ786

but PAF is not any where near the same league as IAF TODAY and in the future..

in fact you can say the same of the NAVY TOO....
Only the armies are much closer... in capability...

 

[el nino]

Here is another hyper link on delivery of AWACS

IAF set to take delivery of first AWACS, may opt for another four: report new www.idrw.org / Indian Defense Research Wing

AS YOU CAN SEE NONE OF THIS IS MADE

 

[Shiny Capstar]

Because new radar RD400 and new MICA WVR MISSLE & Meteor BVR MISSLE missle WILL make those fighters the second best in india,s inventory and in South Asia

Out of interest is IAF getting Meteor? I couldn't find anything on it being integrated with any Mirage 2000 let alone the IAF ones.

 

[hj786]

Your replys HJ786.

Are again full of MISINFORMATION.

More facts not made up no wish lists. You can check any number of websites you wish.

1. First Phalcon Awacs arrive next month during AERO INDO 2009.

2ND ONE IN Nov 2009

3rd MID 2010.

2. The contract for upgrading 51 mirage 2000H to Mirage2 2000-9 WAS SIGNED earlier this year with france at the same time that india signed the Scorpene sub deal. This will cost $1.5 billion for upgrade

3. The combat testing evaluation for MMRCA will begin in March ie 2 months time. This contract will be awardred in Oct 2009.

First delivery of 18 fighters by 2011. License production of a rafael or super hornet combat MMRCA in india by 2012..running thru to 2020

THAT IS A FACT you know that like every other forum member

MMRCA is a massive part of india military modernisation programme ..

4. You said india only has 80 su30 mki as of today.

Yes but IAF is license building them this second as you speak

5. You say in 1-2 years PAF will match IAF for technology.

I say NO CHANCE......

Reason simple......

Other then 18 new F16 block/52 paf will have nothing new.

the JF17 will take 1 more year to acheive IOC.

aND ANOTHER 2 MORE to achieve FOC. Even then it will be behind both the F16/52 & THE su30 mki in tech and power..

By 2011 india upgraded MIRAGE 2000-9 WILL BE EQUAL TO F16/52 and superior to JF17.... ash why.

Because new radar RD400 and new MICA WVR MISSLE & Meteor BVR MISSLE missle WILL make those fighters the second best in india,s inventory and in South Asia

You keep saying the same thing again and again. I was wrong about some delivery dates of your AWACS, but apart from that I have not put any "misinformation" in my posts. I never wrote you won't have Mirage 2k-9, I wrote you won't get them yet. It will take time, just as PAF's F-16s are taking some time to be MLUed.

Why do you say PAF is only getting block-52 new? F-16 MLUs will be new as well. Their airframes will be (if not already) re-conditioned/overhauled/upgraded with Falcon Up and Falcon* kits. They will have new radars, cockpits, avionics and so on.

Obviously JF-17s are new, even you know this. If you think JF-17s will take another year for IOC, you are gravely mistaken. They are under-going IOC right now! I have already stated the first squadron will be operational by middle of this year. That means they will have IOC within the next few months. Armed with SD-10 and data-linked to ZDK-03 (Chinese AWACS), JF-17 will be at F-16 and MKI level for sure. Do you think PAF J-10 (FC-20) will not be new as well? FC-20 will be above even MKI level, with AESA/PESA and TVC.

There is no such thing as RD400, you mean RC-400. I am pretty sure AMRAAM has longer range than the radar guided MICA and India will not have Meteor for years, IF it is allowed to buy it. Even if India buys Meteor, Pakistan can procure the Chinese PL-13 LRAAM if it feels the need to. PL-13 is in the same class as Meteor. By the way, Pakistan is also has the option to fit RC-400 and MICA to JF-17.

No, Mirage 2k-9 will NOT be second best fighter in South Asia. Best fighters in South Asia will be FC-20, MKI, and MMRCA I think.
Please note I have already said InAF will always have numerical advantage over PAF, because they have more funding.

ShinyCapstar, I don't think Meteor has been cleared for sale to India, but I may be wrong.

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

i have seen such air craft in a magazine called crystal which is easily available in Pak Army Libraries

 

[TsAr]

I dont think buying American jets is a good option for Indians...there airforce is mainly based on Russian technology.....if they do decide to go for f16 or f18 it would be expensive for them because they would have to buil new infrastructure of it...

 

[el nino]

In Reply to HJ786.

You comments
No, Mirage 2k-9 will NOT be second best fighter in South Asia. Best fighters in South Asia will be FC-20, MKI, and MMRCA I think.

BY STATING THE ABOVE i have just proved my point of IAF TECH superiority.

in other words

230 su30mki & 126 MMRCA OF THE INDIAN AIR FORCE

Along with

FC20 (western upgraded j10) X 36 FOR PAF

will be the best fighters in south asia.

as you can see india will have 356 su30mki + mmrca versis 36 j10/fc20

F16/52 & MIRAGE2000-5 MIG29SMT & JF17 will not be in this league.

this is ditto my earlier post & debate with you.

 

[el nino]

HJ786

NO MATTER WHAT PAF envisages for JF17 IT will not be on par to SU30 MKI

reason being

It has less range & weapons load

single engine

no advanced western jammers or ECM

no TVC

sd10 its primary weapon is unknown quality

in a 1-1 engagement SU30MKI will have first see first shoot advantage having the pesa bars radar.

it carries upto 10 air to air missles.

2 pilots & 2 engines means it staying in the air far longer.

carries more fuel and has datalinking & hms as standard too.

Pakistanis themselves admit their best fighter will be the F16/52

you talk about western upgrade but that is years away, PAF has not even inducted and passed the first squadron of block15 yet ...

These statements are all pie in the sky.

If you are talking about upgrades let me give you a upgrade detail to SU30MKI..

Tranche 3 su30mki ie the last 3 squadrons from 2012 onwards will include

ibris aesa from Russia to replace the PESA. with it IAF will get the KH177 ramjet BVR missle. This missle as double the range of both the USA AMRAAMC5 & THE R77/R27 that india currently deploys.#ie over 200km

 

[Keysersoze]

el nino you are fast becoming boring...I will start with some basic maths for you.....In 1994 Global security states that the PAF had a strength of combat 430 aircraft.
Now according to your "facts" the PAF is going to have a force reduction of 72 aircraft or 4/5 squadrons of combat aircraft. Now that is a substantial reduction........Do you think that is the case or perhaps there will be more aircraft to make up for this shortfall?

Now since you are new and quite slow maybe you should go back and look at the development pages for the JF-17....only the first 50 aircraft will have the Chinese package after that the blk twos will have more western systems RC-400 and Mica have been touted and with the potential sales of the jF-17 to other buyers its fair to say that Pakistan has people lined up to supply radars and other Electronics for this cash cow.

You also forget to mention one other feature of your beloved MKI its F******huge RCS.. The 10 AWACS aircraft will spot that sucker from miles away and frankly we could load a drone with a BVR missile (SD-10 or AIM-120 take your pick ;-))

You then talk about a missile that does not yet exist!!!!! the RAMJET R-77!!!!!! now go back and tell what the important difference between Russian and American BVR missiles is......when you know come back!

Now I suggest you leave to those indian members have some brains...i.e. Not you....

 

[hj786]

El-nino, stop now. You are making yourself look like a 5 year old idiot. You want to carry this on, do it with private messages. You keep repeating exactly the same rubbish again and again.

I have not said IAF has tech. superiority, I said FC-20 (as well as later versions of JF-17 and AESA upgraded F-16) will be just as good if not better than your MKI and even MMRCA.
It does not matter how many times you say "MKI has TVC, twin engines, blah blah," these things do not make it a superior combat aircraft. They improve it, but they do NOT make it "superior technology."
Why is MKI's second pilot an advantage? You think the second pilot will jump outside of the jet and wrestle the imaging-infra-red seeker chasing his MKI?
So what if it can stay in the air longer? That just means PAF has more time to shoot it down.

MKI can carry 10 air to air missiles. So what? You think it can shoot down 10 enemy aircraft without being shot down itself? BS. You think it is a stealth fighter? Nope. It will be spotted by AWACS if not by PAF aircraft and it will have missiles flying towards it too. That means it will get shot down. How do 10 missiles stop that happening?

"JF-17 has single engine, less weapons load..." Tell me why are these things a disadvantage if hundreds of JF-17 are flying over their own territory? Single engine has a major advantage, it means less time in the workshop and more time in the air! Even IAF uses single engined aircraft.
You don't know sh*t, its obvious.

You say SD-10 is an unknown quantity. So what? You think R-77 is battle tested? Nope, it is also an unknown quantity. If you knew anything about SD-10 you would know it is just as deadly as R-77! China has thousands of R-77s. You think they have not studied them? You think they would design an inferior missile? I can tell you don't know jack sh*t about SD-10 because you don't know it may have Russian seeker technology.

In case you haven't heard, AMRAAM is most certainly battle tested. PAF is procuring hundreds of them. Tell me, will your MKI's TVC and twin engines and longer range let it dodge AMRAAMs once inside their No Escape Zone? Unless your MKI can pull over 10g it doesn't stand a chance. News for you - it can't.

Pakistan can't get advanced western jammers? WRONG. PAF is buying the latest American jammer pods for it's F-16s.
MKI has first see first shoot advantage? WRONG. PAF will have AWACS aircraft from this year onwards.
I don't give a **** what radar your MKI has from 2012, by then PAF will be operating many Chinese as well as Swedish AESA AWACS, likely a PESA/AESA-equipped FC-20 too.
Your ramjet BVR missile is no big deal either. China has one in the works as we speak, if not finished already.

You want to continue this crap, send me private messages. I ain't no expert but even I can tell you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. You are just saying the same stuff over and over and over and over and over. Each time I reply, you can't prove me wrong. So you just repeat the same old crap. If you knew what you were talking about, I wouldn't be able to refute your claims.

 

[jawadqamar]

3. The combat testing evaluation for MMRCA will begin in March ie 2 months time. This contract will be awardred in Oct 2009.

First delivery of 18 fighters by 2011. License production of a rafael or super hornet combat MMRCA in india by 2012..running thru to 2020

THAT IS A FACT you know that like every other forum member

MMRCA is a massive part of india military modernisation programme ..

this news item slightly old but still as good as gold

Industry fears Indian MRCA may never emerge
REUBEN FJOHNSON JDW Correspondent
Washington, DC(April 2007 • JDW)

US and European companies arere-evaluating the Indian Air Force’s much-anticipated tender for 126 Multi-Role CombatAircraft(MRCA):a programme that some now see as a mirage far in the distance rather thananear-term possibility.


US Air Force Deputy Under Secretary for International Affairs Bruce Lemkin made an official visit to New Delhi in March in an effort to convince India to accelerate its decision – and also to select the Lockheed Martin F-16 over Boeing’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet. “Therequest forinformation(RfI) was for a single-engine multirole attack fighter, which the F-16 is and the F/A-18 is not,” Lemkin said. India needs a jet to complement the [Sukhoi] Su-30. So, if you are looking at heavier jets [such as the F/A-18],which aircraft are you looking to replace?”

Lemkin’svisit seems to have been partially otivated by a statement made during February’s Aero India 2007 air show by the Indian secretary of state for defence production, KPSingh, that the decision on which aircraft to procure could take as long as 10 years. Representatives of the firms interested in the programme have told Jane’s that they now believe there may never be a request for proposals (RfP). At Eurofighter, the endless delays have led the team partners to debate which firm will absorb the considerable costs of taking the lead in bidding the Typhoon for India.


The original RfI was issued in 2004 and there have since been regular promises from the Indian Ministry of Defence on an RfP release, but each of these dates has come and gone, reating some scepticism among industry.

If the procurement really is a decade away, it raises real questions for the F-16. The lure of a sale of 126 or more aircraft was enough to amortise the costs of ntegrating an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar into the Block 50 C/D-series airframe.“The F-16 needs an AESA in order to remain relevant for the long term in the fighter market,” said oneUS industry source. Indian industry could also potentially receive the licence to retrofit AESAs to the F-16s of other nations who want to modernise their fleets.“Ten years from now is too late to think about taking this step,” said anotherUSindustry representative. “A major improvement to the F-16 of this kind needs to happen before the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter begins deliveries to export customers and not concurrent with it.”

 

[el nino]

Why are you posting statements from 2007...

We are in 2009...

In March all vendors start the testing of their fighters in india.

Selection to be made in October 2009.#

To HJ786.

Re: Your statement " have not said IAF has tech. superiority, I said FC-20 (as well as later versions of JF-17 and AESA upgraded F-16) will be just as good if not better than your MKI and even MMRCA.

R u indicating that the JF17 MAYBE superior to a Typhoon Rafael or F18SH

or block 70 F16in..with some upgrades..

These fighters come with supercruise engines TVC latest Avionics and radars with missles to match. They are built with compsite materials and have quaruplex FBW systems with very low RCS...

" WHISLT JF17 can be upgraded with a western radar or missle wat you cant do is just put in a new engine or add TVC or compsites WITH OUT MASSIVE STRUCTURAL CHANGES...

These features is wat makes J10 4 generation and on par with SU30 MKI
& mmrca WINNER.

For JF17 to get to that level you will to resdesign the whole fusalage

thats why JF17 is classed a 3rd generation fighter on par with early F16s or mig29...

 

[Shiny Capstar]

Industry fears Indian MRCA may never emerge
REUBEN FJOHNSON JDW Correspondent
Washington, DC(April 2007 • JDW)

I still don't understand why they didn't just go for what the AF wanted and get more Mirages.

 

[jawadqamar]

Why are you posting statements from 2007...

We are in 2009...

In March all vendors start the testing of their fighters in india.

Selection to be made in October 2009.#

Because like i said before statement is still true

india is still on same stage

i am hearing such statements that selection will be made this year and so on from indian side from almost 7 to 8 years and still you guys are going strong


what can i say man good for u

second reason is

Indian secretary of state for defence production, KPSingh, that the decision on which aircraft to procure could take as long as 10 years.

so do you know more than secretary of state for defence production

 

[hj786]

Why are you posting statements from 2007...
We are in 2009...
In March all vendors start the testing of their fighters in india.
Selection to be made in October 2009.#

To HJ786.
Re: Your statement " have not said IAF has tech. superiority, I said FC-20 (as well as later versions of JF-17 and AESA upgraded F-16) will be just as good if not better than your MKI and even MMRCA.
R u indicating that the JF17 MAYBE superior to a Typhoon Rafael or F18SH
or block 70 F16in..with some upgrades..
These fighters come with supercruise engines TVC latest Avionics and radars with missles to match. They are built with compsite materials and have quaruplex FBW systems with very low RCS...

" WHISLT JF17 can be upgraded with a western radar or missle wat you cant do is just put in a new engine or add TVC or compsites WITH OUT MASSIVE STRUCTURAL CHANGES...

These features is wat makes J10 4 generation and on par with SU30 MKI
& mmrca WINNER.
For JF17 to get to that level you will to resdesign the whole fusalage
thats why JF17 is classed a 3rd generation fighter on par with early F16s or mig29...

"R u indicating that the JF17 MAYBE superior to a Typhoon Rafael or F18SH
or block 70 F16in..with some upgrades..These fighters come with supercruise engines TVC latest Avionics and radars with missles to match. They are built with compsite materials and have quaruplex FBW systems with very low RCS..."

So? Why does JF-17 need to supercruise? It only needs a better TWR ratio. Why does it need TVC? superhornet, typhoon and rafale do not need it, block-70 will probably not have it, why does JF- need it?
What do you know about JF-'s avionics? Even if JF- does not have latest avionics, these can be upgraded easily because they are MODULAR. Several websites have also reported that NRIET, the same company who made JF's current radar, is developing an AESA radar specifically for JF-17.
JF- will incorporate composite materials too. On production models, all control surfaces will be made of composites and % of composites will be increased with every tranche/block.
JF- has a digital FBW system.
Low RCS? You think those 4.5 gen fighters are stealth fighters? Nope. Anyway, PAF is thinking about modifying JF- with RCS reduction measures in future blocks - this is confirmed.

"WHISLT JF17 can be upgraded with a western radar or missle wat you cant do is just put in a new engine or add TVC or compsites WITH OUT MASSIVE STRUCTURAL CHANGES..."

WRONG. JF- is designed to take different engines - one of them being M-53. Why do you think the PAF Air Chief Marshal is saying they are looking for a western engine if one cannot be fitted? M-53, M-88 (EJ-200 as well I think) are being considered - they can be fitted to JF with some modification. The designers were never sure which engine would be selected - which engine should they have designed JF to take?
JF doesnt need TVC. Why are you so obsessed with TVC?
Yes they can add composites to JF without massive structural changes. How do I know that? Because they ARE adding composites to JF - this is confirmed.

JF-17 is not a 3rd gen fighter. It far better than early F-16s and Mig-29s. Have you even compared its specifications to F-16A and Mig-29? The ACM has already said JF's avionics/radar are much better than F-16A.