F-60 / J-31 stealth fighter aircraft for Pakistan Air Force?

[RazorMC]

I remember an ACM said that we had to pay for the plastic fuel tanks of the Mirages 3/5 same as it was worth weight in gold... The french really know how to screw customers....

Maybe the parts are hard to come by nowadays, hence the price. Aren't we making those ourselves??

 

[hurt]

I remember an ACM said that we had to pay for the plastic fuel tanks of the Mirages 3/5 same as it was worth weight in gold... The french really know how to screw customers....

Mirage 2000-5 are not only expensive,France never can supply enough parts to taiwan in time.TW only keep half of Mirage 2000-5s to fly.

 

[Luftwaffe]

Thank you for this informative post. We have news from a few countries that state that M2000 series have been retired due to cost considerations. They have always been expensive machines to maintain and the fact that the assembly and supply line has long since closed does not help. This is the reason why PAF is buying old M3/5s from all over the place to maintain its fleet.
Araz

So older Mirage III/V are cheaper to maintain then M2000? for the fact that production assembly had shut down in mid 70s? That's strange because the older the aircraft/airframe gets the expensive it gets to maintain unless you've in house parts assembly established. M2000/-5/-9 production assembly seized to operate in 2007/2008 is expected to be reopened for the time to modernized/produce additional spares for IAF M2000. Also I'm thinking Mirages/Rafale are developed by same Dassault so how is it hard to produce spares/maintain older generation Aircrafts. As the latest news is F-1 mirages could be sold to Argentina modernized along with spares as well as F-1s for Libyan Air Force and the on going modernization for F-1s of Moroccan Air Force.

 

[Luftwaffe]

I remember an ACM said that we had to pay for the plastic fuel tanks of the Mirages 3/5 same as it was worth weight in gold... The french really know how to screw customers....

Post the link.

Don't bad mouth about French, Americans also screwed us on several occasions remember that. It was PAF decision to buy MIII/V from australia/libya/lebanon so don't complain.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir here we are not talking about 2013-2014...Here we are talking about 2020-25 by then Indian defence budget will be around 80 to 100 Billion Dollars which is more then enough for the procurment of 5th Gen Fighter Jet....

Hi,

Procurement is not the problem----you can get them today----but it is the maintenance that breaks the camel's back.

 

[That Guy]

Sir here we are not talking about 2013-2014...Here we are talking about 2020-25 by then Indian defence budget will be around 80 to 100 Billion Dollars which is more then enough for the procurment of 5th Gen Fighter Jet....

I agree with you, a lot of the people who claim that India or Pakistan can't afford the fighters don't really understand that we're talking about the 2020-25 time frame. Currently, yes, both nations don't have the money, because of Pakistan's economy, and India's defense budget cuts, but by 2020 that will all change.

People also keep stating the maintenance costs, but by 2020-25 those same costs are probably going to go down and the economies of both nations is expected to grow quite well by that time.

 

[araz]

So older Mirage III/V are cheaper to maintain then M2000? for the fact that production assembly had shut down in mid 70s? That's strange because the older the aircraft/airframe gets the expensive it gets to maintain unless you've in house parts assembly established. M2000/-5/-9 production assembly seized to operate in 2007/2008 is expected to be reopened for the time to modernized/produce additional spares for IAF M2000. Also I'm thinking Mirages/Rafale are developed by same Dassault so how is it hard to produce spares/maintain older generation Aircrafts. As the latest news is F-1 mirages could be sold to Argentina modernized along with spares as well as F-1s for Libyan Air Force and the on going modernization for F-1s of Moroccan Air Force.

The M3/5 we bought from australia and Libya were bought because they were cheapand had a lot of life(especially the Libyanframes) in them. Both the deals were advantageous because not only could we increase numbers but also canabolize the rest for spares. Over the years we may have developed the ability to manufacture some of the parts but mostly we need to rely on the french for spares and they do charge a lot.The M2K was a nightmare fro. the maintenance point of view. Qatar mothballed them UAE arent flying them much and the only reason for them to consider the Rafale inapite of their admission that the Rafale was underpowered for their hot climate was the french saying they will buy the M2K5s back.The Saudi deal for EF may have been another reason but this was a major condition.
Araz

 

[That Guy]

THAT GUY

you keep BRACKETTING the indian & pakistan PURCHASE POWER has in the SAME LEAGUE

YOU COULDNT be more wrong

India GDP is somewhere between $1.9 trillion to $2.0 trillion @ 2.3% defence budget this is some $41- 45 billion per year

Pakistan GDP is $200-220 billion @ 3.50%defense budget this $7 to $8 billion

Indian is growing at over 6% (last decade averaged 8%)
Pakistan at 3%

THERE IS NO COMPARISON NOT TODAY and definitely not in the future when this near 10-1 gap will be even bigger based on projected growth of both nations

You're missing the point and putting words into my mouth, I am not comparing the two nation's purchasing powers in the same league, India has always had a higher purchasing power than Pakistan for a long time, and that isn't gonna change any time soon. Having said that, you're making bad assertions, the growth last year was 3.7% yes, but that does not indicate that by 2020, the growth rate will be the same, it just won't. Pakistan's growth during 2004 was 8.96%, ( http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-8UKlv9SFt...AACWg/3wpE6ur3wD8/s1600/Pak+GDP+1951-2009.png ) during the same period, India's growth rate was somewhere between 7.5-7.9 ( http://bankexamguide.com/sites/default/files/India GDP growth rate.png ), but look now, Pakistan's growth rate last year was 3.7 and India's was 5%.

These rates in the long term mean nothing, because by 2020 the results could be just like 2004.

I'm not the one making these comparisons, YOU are. I'm simply stating facts, I didn't even bring up Purchasing power between the two nations, YOU did. I didn't compare the two's economies and defense budgets, YOU did.

Sir, all I'm saying is that Pakistan will probably have a stable enough economy BY 2020 to at least consider the 5th gen.

I AGREE WITH posters that even india with the 10th largest defense budget on the planet FGFA will very EXPENSIVE PRPGRAMME and will REQUIRE india to achieve the very highest growth rates in GDP & MILITARY EXPENDITURE if the programme is to be concluded...

Article how INDIA has already cut this order to 144 from 250

Sukhoi/HAL FGFA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I ASK THE QUESTION CAN PAF afford this TYPE OF INVESTMENT

FOR ME ONLY A HANDFUL NATIONS CAN REALISTCALLY AFFORD TO MAINTAIN A FIFTH GEN FIGHTER OPTION


Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...raft-pakistan-air-force-22.html#ixzz2R2Nk0XQI

You're also misunderstand something vital, you seem to think that Pakistan will buy or even need over a hundred of these 5th gens, that's not true. Just two squadrons (45-50 aircraft) are enough to defensive purposes, no more than that.

India is also investing in the program, which makes the costs for India even larger, while Pakistan is gonna buy an off the shelf product from China, without prior investment.

You also seem to have this extremely flawed concept that the maintenance costs for these air crafts are going to remain consistent, and that is simply not true. The maintenance costs are obviously going to go down, because of the potential proliferation of the plane. the aging of the technology in question and too many other facts to name here.

You're right, only a handful of nations can actually afford to maintain a fleet of 5th gens, but that highly depends on the size of the fleet. If you want an offensive capability, then you need between 150-250 planes, but if you want a small defensive fleet, then only a few squadrons are needed, which automatically lowers the potential costs to the customer anyways.

Hey retard why bring ur shining india in threads not related to it? go live in ur looney land.. idiot.

Don't be rude.

 

[EagleEyes]

Stay on topic please.

 

[Viper0011.]

I AGREE WITH posters that even india with the 10th largest defense budget on the planet FGFA will very EXPENSIVE PRPGRAMME and will REQUIRE india to achieve the very highest growth rates in GDP & MILITARY EXPENDITURE if the programme is to be concluded...

I ASK THE QUESTION CAN PAF afford this TYPE OF INVESTMENT

To answer your question based on past analyses, yes. The PAF can keep a couple of squadrons of the J-31's if they needed to. Here's how it'll work. The comparison with FGFA / PakFa, F-22 or J-20 is pretty silly in my opinion.

Historically, the way PAF works, they don't buy the most expensive toy on the planet. They buy stuff that works for them and provides a decent deterrence. When you talk about 'Fifth Gen'....you have to understand, a plane in the category of F-22 .....has hundreds of millions of sensitive technology in it. Does Pakistan needs all that? Is Pakistan ever going to have to defend or fight a way with two - five nations at a time??? The answer is NO.
So, you can 'dumb down' the platform. Hypothetically, if a stealthy model of F-16 was made and it cost $ 90 mil. I think Pakistan would buy it in a minimal quantity. What they want (and have always done) is to use moderate tech or numbers that do send a message across to India clearly. At the end, the IA has to account for the capability and really understand that it might suffer serious losses to. Thus, resulting in stopping an event from happening.
Two squadrons of dumb down J-31, that may be very stealthy but will have J-10 type of technology may suit Pakistan and can lower the price tag. But the reality is, if these planes can't be seen on the Radar and even with their medium tech, they can invade the Indian Airspace without getting detected.....you can use your imagination to think what it is that they can or will do. THAT's some deterrence and it stops the adventurist nature of others

 

[That Guy]

Stay on topic please.

Trying, but it's really hard to when I find people bring up subjects that have nothing to do with anything, and then get the facts about those subjects wrong.

 

[Kompromat]

Where does Pakistan get money from to buy all the military hardware ??

This jet wont be purchased until 2020-2022

 

[That Guy]

Where does Pakistan get money from to buy all the military hardware ??

Right now? Soft loans from China help, but @Aeronaut is right, these planes won't be purchased until at least 2020-2022

 

[Storm Force]

What wil
change in 2022 to
allow such massive finan eccial improv..ement. country is on its knees financially

 

[AirDefence]

This jet wont be purchased until 2020-2022

SO, you think that you have enough money in 2020 to pour in a 5th gen plane, and by the way j-31 takes at least 20 years from now to reach its desired position.

Right now? Soft loans from China help, but @Aeronaut is right, these planes won't be purchased until at least 2020-2022

why do you think that china will make you partner in its new gen fighters, I don't think so...
do you have any official link that can prove , this ????