F-60 / J-31 stealth fighter aircraft for Pakistan Air Force?

[RazorMC]

See, I sort of agree, right now it's impossible, but by 2020, right around the same time as India, Pakistan's economy will hopefully be good enough to consider it.

I would also like to point that there is a misconception that every nation in Africa is poor, but that's simply not true. Nigeria, Kenya, North Sudan, Sierra Leone, Burkina Faso, Guinea-Bissau, Ivory Coast...etc, are all quite rich, and almost all of them have extremely fast growing economies. This is a prime market, especially since most of them are looking to replace their aging fleet. Nigeria is already trying to replace it's aging Chinese F-7 fleet and it has the money to do so. There were rumors that they might opt in for the JF-17, but nothing has been reported as of yet.

As for the Chinese not sharing their state of the art tech with Pakistan and African nations, the J-31 is an export model and the only nations that buy Chinese fighters are Pakistan, Sri Lanka, and a hand full of African nations. Do you really think that any nation that can afford the F-35 or the PAK-FA (the export version) will want the J-31? Nope, because the J-31 is specially designed as a cheaper alternative to the F-35, which makes the J-31 the perfect fighter for nations with either not so great economies, or emerging economies such as Nigeria.

Evidence...

AIRSHOW CHINA: AVIC proposes stealth fighter for export

Avic Promotes J-31 As An Export Fighter

????-???-????????????? (google translate this one)

Look, we don't have to just buy the aircraft, there's maintenance, flight costs, cost of importing vs. assembling locally and countless other stuff that goes in the total cost calculation. Someone with procurement knowledge can giude us here, but buying aircraft is not a straightforward deal.

And the African countries that you mentioned are probably going to have a very large air patrol force, but that's about it.

 

[MastanKhan]

Look, we don't have to just buy the aircraft, there's maintenance, flight costs, cost of importing vs. assembling locally and countless other stuff that goes in the total cost calculation. Someone with procurement knowledge can giude us here, but buying aircraft is not a straightforward deal.

And the African countries that you mentioned are probably going to have a very large air patrol force, but that's about it.

Hi,

Thank you for your post---. No african nation is capable to maintain and manage a fleet of F7's except for souh africa. Nigeria is a terrible example of incompetence. Their record reflects poorly of the flight and maintenance capabilities of the F7's that they have.

To sell them Jf17's just for the sake of making a sale---I think would be a poor decision.

5th gen aircraft look good on the paper---but it is just like an average Joe buying a ferrari---and realizing that the 30000 miles service cost 7000---10000 dollars as compared to 300 dollars on a regular car.

Taiwan recently retired their mirage 2k's---it was rumored the the m2k's were expensive on maintenance---even though it was to discredit mirage to please someone else----the 5th gen takes maintainence expense to a tottaly different pleateau.

 

[Zabaniyah]

The increasing costs of the new U.S. F-35 fighter is scaring off foreign buyers. The latest country to express doubts about the cost and effectiveness of the F-35 versus their current jet fighters (often F-16s) is the Netherlands. Although the Dutch are buying two F-35s for evaluation, it’s already been noted that the F-35 costs 60 percent more (than the F-16, per flight hour) to operate. For European nations, with static or shrinking defense budgets and growing demands to help with peacekeeping operations, more expensive (to buy and operate) jet fighters just don’t fit in.

Source:Warplanes: F-35 Costs Driving Away Buyers

I'd have to say, 5th generation planes have their perks

 

[RazorMC]

Hi,

Thank you for your post---. No african nation is capable to maintain and manage a fleet of F7's except for souh africa. Nigeria is a terrible example of incompetence. Their record reflects poorly of the flight and maintenance capabilities of the F7's that they have.

To sell them Jf17's just for the sake of making a sale---I think would be a poor decision.

5th gen aircraft look good on the paper---but it is just like an average Joe buying a ferrari---and realizing that the 30000 miles service cost 7000---10000 dollars as compared to 300 dollars on a regular car.

Taiwan recently retired their mirage 2k's---it was rumored the the m2k's were expensive on maintenance---even though it was to discredit mirage to please someone else----the 5th gen takes maintainence expense to a tottaly different pleateau.

Exactly, their failures would reflect badly on any prospect of selling the Thunders to a real air force. It will better not to sell than to ruin its reputation at the hands of an incompetent force.

And the cost factor is what I was trying to point out to That Guy. The coating (an re-application after every flight) of even the F-117As would become a burden on PAF's resources. Then there's the storage requirements etc etc.

Just out of out reach atm. PAF has more feasible plans that suit our budget and requirements.

 

[That Guy]

Look, we don't have to just buy the aircraft, there's maintenance, flight costs, cost of importing vs. assembling locally and countless other stuff that goes in the total cost calculation. Someone with procurement knowledge can giude us here, but buying aircraft is not a straightforward deal.

And the African countries that you mentioned are probably going to have a very large air patrol force, but that's about it.

Thanks for replying (•‿&#8226

Of course, I've accounted that into my calculations, but who says that Pakistan or even those nations I've posted about even need a large force? Who says they need 100 fighters? For example, Nigeria, according to wiki, only has about 12 F-7s and a handful of Su-24s and Su-27s.

Pakistan doesn't need to buy over a 100, it just needs enough to be effective, the JF-17 is meant to be the main front line fighter until at least 2040, by 2020, Pakistan would probably be economically stable enough to at least think about at least 2 squadrons. 45-50 planes would be enough to suit Pakistan's needs, of not less and by 2025-30, Pakistan will probably make a move to upgrade it's (by then) aging fleet. By that time, maintenance costs are sure to go down, and effectiveness of the planes are sure to go up.


The only reason why Pakistan may not buy the J-31 in it's current form is because of it's twin engines. While Pakistan has operated twin engine planes before, Pakistan has traditionally stayed away from them, and stuck with single engine planes for various reasons, not least to do with Pakistan's poor economy.

 

[That Guy]

Exactly, their failures would reflect badly on any prospect of selling the Thunders to a real air force. It will better not to sell than to ruin its reputation at the hands of an incompetent force.

And the cost factor is what I was trying to point out to That Guy. The coating (an re-application after every flight) of even the F-117As would become a burden on PAF's resources. Then there's the storage requirements etc etc.

Just out of out reach atm. PAF has more feasible plans that suit our budget and requirements.

Like I just said in my previous post, I've already taken that into account.

Besides, selling planes to nations has more to do with economics and politics than the actual planes themselves. It's the Chinese who'll sell the planes, not Pakistan, and the Chinese want to show that more and more nations are relying on them for defense rather than the US and Russia. They could care less about the actual effectiveness of the planes.

 

[MastanKhan]

Exactly, their failures would reflect badly on any prospect of selling the Thunders to a real air force. It will better not to sell than to ruin its reputation at the hands of an incompetent force.

And the cost factor is what I was trying to point out to That Guy. The coating (an re-application after every flight) of even the F-117As would become a burden on PAF's resources. Then there's the storage requirements etc etc.

Just out of out reach atm. PAF has more feasible plans that suit our budget and requirements.

Hi,

Thank you for your posts----people don't realize or don't know that it is cheaper to come up with counter measures agains the 5th gen aircraft in this age of technology---. Pakistan in its current situation really does not need any 5th gen aircraft---its geography has no need of that aircraft.

Pakistan can get better results by spending 10-20 % of the amount of the purchase of 30 5th gen aircraft on better air to air and ground to air missile defence systems and other assets like and aesa radar and PL12----.

India cannot afford this aircraft either---regardless of what they say---.

 

[That Guy]

Hi,

Thank you for your posts----people don't realize or don't know that it is cheaper to come up with counter measures agains the 5th gen aircraft in this age of technology---. Pakistan in its current situation really does not need any 5th gen aircraft---its geography has no need of that aircraft.

Pakistan can get better results by spending 10-20 % of the amount of the purchase of 30 5th gen aircraft on better air to air and ground to air missile defence systems and other assets like and aesa radar and PL12----.

India cannot afford this aircraft either---regardless of what they say---.

For once, I agree with you. Pakistan has no need for it right now, and with the budget cuts, India can't afford it currently either, nor does it need a 5th gen right now anyways.

I do have to say, it's not just a matter of geography that 5th gens are effective at, for all intents and purposes, the J-31 doesn't really need to be super-cruise, just like the F-35. It's the stealth aspect that matters most about the 5th gen fighters.

After the Vietnam war, US defense experts concluded that most single aircraft that were shot down or were the ones that did the shooting often did this without the target actually seeing the shooter. This led them to believe that 5th gens should and do need to have a stealth aspect to help hide the plane's signature off of enemy radar. This was later proven when the US conducted a confidence test with one F-22s and four F-15 eagles, in which the F-22 took down each of the F-15 fighters without even being seen. Of course, the down side of this was that later on, during the red flag exercises 2012, while the F-22s were making major gains, once German fighters visually found the F-22s, they were able to close the gap and according to one of the German pilots who was quoted as saying "Yesterday we had Raptor (F-22) salad for lunch!", meant that the F-22's advantage quickly disappeared.


http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlin...ses-79-billion-advantage-in-dogfights-report/

 

[That Guy]

oops, double post.

 

[farhan_9909]

Those thinking PAF wont be in position to buy a 5th gen in 2020

Remember that in 2004 when India entered into the FGFA project.there defence budget only was 12bn USD.
when they started there own aircraft carrier program there defecne budget was only 17bn

Pakistan defence budget at the moment is 6.5bn+2.5bn=9bn(2.5bn of nuclear program budget)

As we all know Mushy included pensions and related budgets into development budget so the official defence budget appear even smaller.

Which means 1bn addition more and most important as the zardari govt admitted giving off 650billions pkr to Military within the last 5 years or roughly 1.2billions per year

so add 2.2bn to 9bn=11.2billions

Each year the budget increases by 15% atleast and now add to this the economic growth scale it is to witness in imran era

by 2015-16 our defence budget would be atleast 15billions or more.and
onwards 2015 a new era of purchasing by pak military will start like the indian started onwards 2000


WOT will also be stopped which means no more billions of spending on WOT

 

[Luftwaffe]

Those thinking PAF wont be in position to buy a 5th gen in 2020

That was iaf operational budget their procurement budget is much higher beyond limits they have power to buy anything.

I shall repeat and will keep on repeating get better ground radars, Air Space coverage with as many high-medium altitude SAM systems which is still many times cheaper then 5th Gen, AESA/PESA radars for Thunder in near Future or atleast equip couple of squadrons with Selex based AESA, order AESA for Vipers, throw in money to China to develop better variant of SD-10A [B/C], negotiate with US to allow AMRAAMs integration with JF-17 it takes effort why sit lazy how hard is it if US is approached if they refuse approach French. These are relatively steps before stepping into 5th Gen. Am I wrong have your say.

 

[hurt]

Taiwan recently retired their mirage 2k's---it was rumored the the m2k's were expensive on maintenance---even though it was to discredit mirage to please someone else----the 5th gen takes maintainence expense to a tottaly different pleateau.

its truth that the m2000-5 were expensive on maintenance.
Taiwan own 145 F-16A/Bs and 126 IDFs and 56 m2000-5s.
Cost for buy Parts in 2009
F-16A/B cost 19Millions
IDF cost 53Millions
m2000-5 cost 70Millions

TW own capability to maintain and manage

 

[araz]

its truth that the m2000-5 were expensive on maintenance.
Taiwan own 145 F-16A/Bs and 126 IDFs and 56 m2000-5s.
Cost for buy Parts in 2009
F-16A/B cost 19Millions
IDF cost 53Millions
m2000-5 cost 70Millions

TW own capability to maintain and manage

Thank you for this informative post. We have news from a few countries that state that M2000 series have been retired due to cost considerations. They have always been expensive machines to maintain and the fact that the assembly and supply line has long since closed does not help. This is the reason why PAF is buying old M3/5s from all over the place to maintain its fleet.
Araz

 

[INDIAISM]

Hi,

Thank you for your posts----people don't realize or don't know that it is cheaper to come up with counter measures agains the 5th gen aircraft in this age of technology---. Pakistan in its current situation really does not need any 5th gen aircraft---its geography has no need of that aircraft.

Pakistan can get better results by spending 10-20 % of the amount of the purchase of 30 5th gen aircraft on better air to air and ground to air missile defence systems and other assets like and aesa radar and PL12----.

India cannot afford this aircraft either---regardless of what they say---.

Sir here we are not talking about 2013-2014...Here we are talking about 2020-25 by then Indian defence budget will be around 80 to 100 Billion Dollars which is more then enough for the procurment of 5th Gen Fighter Jet....

 

[Munir]

I remember an ACM said that we had to pay for the plastic fuel tanks of the Mirages 3/5 same as it was worth weight in gold... The french really know how to screw customers....