F-60 / J-31 stealth fighter aircraft for Pakistan Air Force?

[That Guy]

I face palm at this post of yours, most of what you said is non-sense. The FGFA is being made for the purpose of replacing all 4-4.5 the IAF has, because by 2040, 4 and 4.5 gen will become obsolete.


Sir,

Being a new member ( not even a month ) you need to be reminded that there are " no face palms " in this discussion as much as you want to disagree. Discuss like a man----agree to disagree---.

Please learn the decorum of the board.

I may be new to this particular forum, but that doesn't mean that I can't criticize or express my frustration at a particular and factually wrong comment. As long as I'm not rude, I'm not breaking any rules, and I don't see how that was a rude comment.

Whatever makes you happy.

Not really, I don't care either way, I'm just putting forth my own particular analysis of the situation, I'm not really saying I'm right, but what I'm saying is that from my point of view, this is most likely.

 

[That Guy]

Don't you think, the countries will need to go through the learning curve? While, the Chinese may from their end subsidise the end product, there will be a learning curve to be achieved. And this will include moving from trainer style aircraft to fifth generation aircraft. Also, maintenance will require a learning curve. So while the Chinese may be able to keep their end of the bargain, whether the 'allied' partners can do that is a separate question. Ofcourse, this is based on the assumption, that tomorrow the US/French/Russians don't produce a mass produce/transfer an aircraft which may well suit the requirements of the African airforces.

Of course, you make a valid point, but that only fits if the Chinese aren't gonna be involved heavily in the maintenance from the get go. What I see happening is that the Chinese are going to do most of the maintenance in the beginning, not to mention that Chinese air-force doctrine uses the "easy to maintain, easy to use" method for most of it's fighters.

Let's be totally honest, besides 2-5 African nations, most of them won't be able to afford and maintain a fleet of F-35s or any other modern US-EU aircraft in large enough numbers. This is why most of them buy from Russia and China, because they tend to be cheaper and easier to maintain. The 5th gen J-31 from China is going to be a prime choice for the African market because they'll be cheaper and will have similar capabilities as the F-35 in many situations.

 

[sancho]

Not really, I don't care either way, I'm just putting forth my own particular analysis of the situation, I'm not really saying I'm right, but what I'm saying is that from my point of view, this is most likely.

Fair enough, we all have our own point of views, but you couldn't be more wrong about this! MKI as stop gap? FGFA was not even close to be considered when we decided about the Su 30s and it's a simple calculation to understand, that FGFA can't replace MKI, since the oldest MKIs will only be around 18 years old by then, with a normal lifecycle expectation of IAF between 30 and 40 years.
So the relations that you have created doesn't fit and similar can be said about Rafales, since the deal has a high industrial requirement too, otherwise we would have bought 126 x Mirage 2000-5s years ago as IAF wanted. You will find a lot of infos about this in the Indian section of the forum, which might be good to get a better idea about these things.

 

[That Guy]

Fair enough, we all have our own point of views, but you couldn't be more wrong about this! MKI as stop gap? FGFA was not even close to be considered when we decided about the Su 30s and it's a simple calculation to understand, that FGFA can't replace MKI, since the oldest MKIs will only be around 18 years old by then, with a normal lifecycle expectation of IAF between 30 and 40 years.
So the relations that you have created doesn't fit and similar can be said about Rafales, since the deal has a high industrial requirement too, otherwise we would have bought 126 x Mirage 2000-5s years ago as IAF wanted. You will find a lot of infos about this in the Indian section of the forum, which might be good to get a better idea about these things.

I think you misunderstand me, I'm not saying that the MKI be retired, I'm saying the MKI will be phased out as a front line fighter and replaced with the FGFA. The MKI will only be used as a second line of defense, not the front line.

I actually got most of my info from the indian side of the forums, so I think I can't really be accused of bias or anything, when most of my sources are from Indian forumites, not that I'm suggesting that you're calling me bias.

 

[Storm Force]

In reply to That GUY

This is why most of them buy from Russia and China, because they tend to be cheaper and easier to maintain. The 5th gen J-31 from China is going to be a prime choice for the African market because they'll be cheaper and will have similar capabilities as the F-35 in many situations.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...raft-pakistan-air-force-20.html#ixzz2Qk8WjpVU

HOW CAN YOU CLAIM J31 will have similar capabilities as F35 its 10 years away from induction into PLAAF and 20 years away from export...(THATS EVEN IF THE CHINEASE WISH TO EXPRT THEIR HI END STUFF)

Russian & chinease fighters ARE not easier to maintain ON THE CONTRARY they require higher maintenmance esp engines.

5th generation COSTS per flight and costs per maintenmance are said to FAR HIGHER than 4th generation. SO PLZ TELL WHICH COUNTRY will afford SUCH HI END technology in AFRICA...

INDEED at this moment in time with a TINY BUDGET i,m not sure even PAF could afford a $60 or $70m J31 FIGHTER. and no i doubt CHINA will be giving them away. THIS PROJECT cost them $biliions and is TOP SECRET .. THIS IS NOT A BUDGET PROGRAMME like F7 & JF17 .

We are talking serious tech & serious MONEY

 

[RazorMC]

In reply to That GUY



HOW CAN YOU CLAIM J31 will have similar capabilities as F35 its 10 years away from induction into PLAAF and 20 years away from export...(THATS EVEN IF THE CHINEASE WISH TO EXPRT THEIR HI END STUFF)

Russian & chinease fighters ARE not easier to maintain ON THE CONTRARY they require higher maintenmance esp engines.

5th generation COSTS per flight and costs per maintenmance are said to FAR HIGHER than 4th generation. SO PLZ TELL WHICH COUNTRY will afford SUCH HI END technology in AFRICA...

INDEED at this moment in time with a TINY BUDGET i,m not sure even PAF could afford a $60 or $70m J31 FIGHTER. and no i doubt CHINA will be giving them away. THIS PROJECT cost them $biliions and is TOP SECRET .. THIS IS NOT A BUDGET PROGRAMME like F7 & JF17 .

We are talking serious tech & serious MONEY

Unfortunately, you are right here.

PAF's budget can not accommodate anything higher than 4th gen atm. Let alone African markets.

And the Chinese are not going to share their state of the art with anyone, incl Pakistan. Maybe a trimmed-down version a few years after they've inducted into PLAAF is the best PAF can look for.

 

[Storm Force]

F22 RAPTOR was the worlds first 5th gen fighter. USA has ponit blank refused to SELL THIS to any allies this includes ISRAEL & JAPAN both countries have pleaded with USA but to no avail.. This plane is so expensive to buy at over $200m each and hugh cost to fly the USA cut the orders to 187 planes

F35 LIGHTENING is a slightly watered and smaller jet BUT to date the only nations WHO will buy this FIRST afTER usa ARE THE joint development partners like UK NORWAY DENMARK and TURKEY . they are all part of the development group and have contributed hard dollars. estimated cost of F35 IS $120M EACH

pak fa is a Russian 5th gen fighter AND they have invited india into the pgramme to help FUND the development which is costing india $4 billion up front. Unit cost will be over $100m estimated . INDIA has already cut the order to 144 max for now

CHINA J31 & J20 projects are their own no partners involved. HENCE no reason to share the tech. Capability wise i expect simlar to FGFA & F35 . Price wise if they include TVC engines and AESA radars like FGFA & F22 it cannnot be less than $70m each . THIS WILL BE CUTTING EDGE chinease technology.

TIME FRAME for overseas mass export BUY THOSE THAT CAN AFFORD THEM

F22 NEVER EXCLUISIVE TO USA
F35 post 2020
FGFA 2025
J20 NEVER EXCLUSIVE PLAAF
J31 2020-2025

 

[Nishan_101]

If not wrong then we heard and some what confirmed that PAC has joined in with Chinese over the development of 5th or 6th Generation aircraft. I am sure that its still hidden and I hope it remain hidden for longer period. For the time being I would prefer that PAC should work closely with CAC over Block-IIs that will incorporate:
1. Composites
2. RD-93B(Local Assembly at PAC)
3. FLIR and IRST Pod under air-intakes(both of them integrated and no problem with gun as its far apart).
4. Retractable In Flight Refueling Probe.
5. Better Sensors and Avionics.
6. Dual Seat Aircraft.

Then I am sure it would be great for the PAC to produce about 80 single seat and 30 dual seat along with 35-41 dual seat of Block-IIs as AJT for CSS.

 

[Storm Force]

Nishan.

WHISLT its 100% FEASIBLE that PAC has and is involved in the BLOCK 2 JF17 upgrade (afterall this is a PAF specfic project)

I would be astonished with the rest of your claim.

CHINA HAS 2 5TH GEN PROJECTS on the go already ie J20/J31 if the are comparable TO FGFA or F35 in technology these will cost $billions and a decade to reach full maturity and full combat service. IN OTHER WORDS CHINA HAS ITS HANDS FULL.

Are you suggesting a 3RD PROGRAMME which i seriously doubt or that PAC is a partner in J31 ETC.

More importantly what will PAC bring they have no technology and unlike INDIA have no $4 billion to invest in project.

so why would CHINA INVITE PAC.

unforunately the REAL POLITCAL * BUSINESS WORLD DEALS IN CURRENCY. wat currency is PAC providing

as for 6th GENERATION OTHER THAN USA the rest of the world including CHINA this is far fetched fantasy

for the record CHINA IS YEARS BEHIND THE WEST including russia on both AESA radars & ENGINE technology.

6th gen programmes top secret !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

with PAC involvement SOME CONVINCING NEEDED HERE FOLKES

 

[Zabaniyah]

it is Russian and Indian. the pak-fa was made by Russia and funded by India. j-31 i do not know but i think it is the second stealth fighter jet of china after the j-20.

A little correction.

PAK-FA is a program developed by Sukhoi.

FGFA is a another program derived from PAK-FA jointly developed by Sukhoi and HAL.

J-31 has no relation with the PAK-FA program.

 

[COOKie LOOkie....]

come on y all after making a complete 4th gen plane with china and manufacturing most of its components and a magestic role in its design, and the only production line of this jet is KAMRA. then why do u guys still question about pakistan knowing about fighter planes this is absurd.. this is something of common sence, yes if we talk about 5th gen plane yes we never have experienced about it whatsoever... but making it 5th gen doesnt make it alien technology its still a plane its still based on old models.. secondly about pak involved in it.. do u know what a secret project means its means even if pak is involved no one is going to know... on the other hand india is in cooperation with russian 5th gen project but if we see india is still struggling with its 4th gen plane, but still you guys cant be questioned about what tech could u share with russia for its project.... think about it..and about your own indegeous project FGFA none of you all can predict what it would be or when it would it enter service until any prototype is show.. so we cannot compare it with f 35 of j 31 yet as it has no prototype... i am not saying its not of its class but its lack a bit proof...

 

[That Guy]

In reply to That GUY



HOW CAN YOU CLAIM J31 will have similar capabilities as F35 its 10 years away from induction into PLAAF and 20 years away from export...(THATS EVEN IF THE CHINEASE WISH TO EXPRT THEIR HI END STUFF)

Russian & chinease fighters ARE not easier to maintain ON THE CONTRARY they require higher maintenmance esp engines.

5th generation COSTS per flight and costs per maintenmance are said to FAR HIGHER than 4th generation. SO PLZ TELL WHICH COUNTRY will afford SUCH HI END technology in AFRICA...

INDEED at this moment in time with a TINY BUDGET i,m not sure even PAF could afford a $60 or $70m J31 FIGHTER. and no i doubt CHINA will be giving them away. THIS PROJECT cost them $biliions and is TOP SECRET .. THIS IS NOT A BUDGET PROGRAMME like F7 & JF17 .

We are talking serious tech & serious MONEY

Can you please read my comment before replying? Thanks.

I'm not gonna waste my time repeating things to you, because you didn't bother to actually read my comments or much more even look up facts about this particular subject.

 

[MastanKhan]

Can you please read my comment before replying? Thanks.

I'm not gonna waste my time repeating things to you, because you didn't bother to actually read my comments or much more even look up facts about this particular subject.

Kid,

Don't you get it by now that your comments don't make any sense to anyone----. Don't you get it by the reaction you are getting from the other posters---there is no head or tail to what you have been saying----you posts have no direction.

 

[That Guy]

Kid,

Don't you get it by now that your comments don't make any sense to anyone----. Don't you get it by the reaction you are getting from the other posters---there is no head or tail to what you have been saying----you posts have no direction.

Kid? I'm 21 years old, where do you get off calling me a kid?

My comment makes perfect sense, because I've already answered all his points, but he doesn't seem to actually want to read it and neither do you.

Before you go off insult everyone, maybe you should actually point out where my flaws are, and if I addressed them or not.

 

[That Guy]

Unfortunately, you are right here.

PAF's budget can not accommodate anything higher than 4th gen atm. Let alone African markets.

And the Chinese are not going to share their state of the art with anyone, incl Pakistan. Maybe a trimmed-down version a few years after they've inducted into PLAAF is the best PAF can look for.

See, I sort of agree, right now it's impossible, but by 2020, right around the same time as India, Pakistan's economy will hopefully be good enough to consider it.

I would also like to point that there is a misconception that every nation in Africa is poor, but that's simply not true. Nigeria, Kenya, North Sudan, Sierra Leone, Burkina Faso, Guinea-Bissau, Ivory Coast...etc, are all quite rich, and almost all of them have extremely fast growing economies. This is a prime market, especially since most of them are looking to replace their aging fleet. Nigeria is already trying to replace it's aging Chinese F-7 fleet and it has the money to do so. There were rumors that they might opt in for the JF-17, but nothing has been reported as of yet.

As for the Chinese not sharing their state of the art tech with Pakistan and African nations, the J-31 is an export model and the only nations that buy Chinese fighters are Pakistan, Sri Lanka, and a hand full of African nations. Do you really think that any nation that can afford the F-35 or the PAK-FA (the export version) will want the J-31? Nope, because the J-31 is specially designed as a cheaper alternative to the F-35, which makes the J-31 the perfect fighter for nations with either not so great economies, or emerging economies such as Nigeria.

Evidence...

AIRSHOW CHINA: AVIC proposes stealth fighter for export

Avic Promotes J-31 As An Export Fighter

http://tuku.military.china.com/military/html/2012-11-08/209588_2260843.htm (google translate this one)