F-35 racked up a 28:1 kill ratio at recent Red Flag exercises

[gambit]

20 countries EU/Middle east against 1 poor country with latest tech of that era good to know, go fight with China/Russia than we know the real results @gambit

It does not matter how many countries against one. In air combat, it is still one-to-one. See if you can figure that one out.

 

[Ultima Thule]

It does not matter how many countries against one. In air combat, it is still one-to-one. See if you can figure that one out.

With latest tech and they have 70 era tech, struggling the effects of Iran Iraq war how brave USA are @gambit

 

[IceCold]

But do you think we give a shit what you think?

Do you think others do?
As for Russian jets not performing in Desert Storm, we all know the level of pilots flying them, however do you believe the results would be similar if a professional air force were flying the same jets against yours?

 

[gambit]

With latest tech and they have 70 era tech, struggling the effects of Iran Iraq war how brave USA are @gambit

You got that right, considering both the Soviets and China sat out. See how brave they were?

Do you think others do?

We do not care.

The point of calling our hardware derogatory names is not about having a rational discussion, ranging from the technical issues to pilot proficiency, but about satisfying one's own emotional needs of 'putting the US in its place'. The guy's criticism for the F-35 is that it does not have a proper name, therefore, pilot psychological bond to the jet is weak. WTF is that? So yeah, this kind of 'criticism', we do not give a shit to see. It is worthless.

As for Russian jets not performing in Desert Storm, we all know the level of pilots flying them, however do you believe the results would be similar if a professional air force were flying the same jets against yours?

Hey...We got Red Flag. There are two restraints at Red Flag: live weapons and minimum altitude. Similar professional air force left in awe of both the intensity of the exercise and the quality of US pilots who flew as 'aggressors'. We slaughtered the Iraqi Air Force because we have Red Flag. Not because the Iraqi Air Force was 'not professional'.

 

[LeGenD]

Do you think others do?
As for Russian jets not performing in Desert Storm, we all know the level of pilots flying them, however do you believe the results would be similar if a professional air force were flying the same jets against yours?

Define professional Air Force.

Iraqi Air Force was among the most advanced and well-equipped in the world by 1991 prior to the war (recall the days when Iraq was receiving lot of aid from other countries to counter Iran?). However, much of the world including Iraq, USSR and China had Vietnam War in mind; they did not pay much attention to MAJOR SHIFTS in American war-fighting capabilities throughout the 1970s and 1980s; they all felt too assured. Even then Pakistani COAS Mirza Aslam Beg was of the view that Iraq will be another Vietnam for US prior to the war.

 

[IceCold]

We do not care.

The point of calling our hardware derogatory names is not about having a rational discussion, ranging from the technical issues to pilot proficiency, but about satisfying one's own emotional needs of 'putting the US in its place'. The guy's criticism for the F-35 is that it does not have a proper name, therefore, pilot psychological bond to the jet is weak. WTF is that? So yeah, this kind of 'criticism', we do not give a shit to see. It is worthless.

Point taken! however when i said do others care, i wasnt really referring to that individual but rather in broader sense. You see China at this stage does not care what US got, it already knows what you have and where does China stand, and hence playing catch up. However will it always remain so? You want to believe that, but seeing how much China is pouring into technology by overt and covert means, they are not second fiddle anymore. Russia on the other hand does not have that much money to spare, hence looking for collaborators like India and now maybe Turkey and China who can pour in money. They have the aviation industry, all they need is financial backing.

Hey...We got Red Flag. There are two restraints at Red Flag: live weapons and minimum altitude. Similar professional air force left in awe of both the intensity of the exercise and the quality of US pilots who flew as 'aggressors'. We slaughtered the Iraqi Air Force because we have Red Flag. Not because the Iraqi Air Force was 'not professional'.

Iraqi airforce was anything but professional. In fact there is hardly any arab force that can be termed as professional. During the 6th day war with Israelis, Arab air forces were being slaughtered and when PAF pilots started flying the same Russian crappy jets, suddenly the odds were tilted and Israelis started loosing jets, a fact well documented.
As for red flag you already claim that US plays a notch down usually sending their rookie pilots to gain experience. Besides red flag results are hardly ever made official. So red flag maybe the best close to actual combat exercise however merely saying that you slaughtered Iraqi air force because you had red flag and not because Iraqi air force was severely hampered due to years of sanctions and poorly trained pilots cannot be any further from reality.

Define professional Air Force.

If you want to look at the definition of professional air force than look no further from home where a bloody nose was given to an enemy which is not only numerical superior but also technology wise.
As for the best air force, we all saw how professional that was. The combine air force of arabs were being spanked by the Israelis until PAF pilots joined them. And if Iraqi air force was so damn well equipped why couldn't they stop Israelis from destroying their nuclear reactor in 1981? Yeah! i think its time for you to go figure.

 

[LeGenD]

If you want to look at the definition of professional air force than look no further from home where a bloody nose was given to an enemy which is not only numerical superior but also technology wise.

IAF is superior to PAF only on paper but not in reality. PAF got the better of IAF back in 1965 as well.

Nevertheless, PAF have come a long way since the days of Kargil War (AWACS acquired; F-16 fleet revamped and expanded; JF-17 platform achieved maturity; operational capacity of PAF put to test by War On Terror; numerous qualitative improvements across the board).

IAF is rather worried; when PM Modi himself went as far as to point out that if IAF had French Rafale ... well you can do the math.

As for the best air force, we all saw how professional that was. The combine air force of arabs were being spanked by the Israelis until PAF pilots joined them. And if Iraqi air force was so damn good why couldn't they stop Israelis from destroying their nuclear reactor in 1981? Yeah! i think its time for you to go figure.

Iraqi Air Force, as of 1991, was an entirely different beast in comparison to what it used to be in earlier times such as in the 1960s and 1970s. Iraqi pilots learned a lot from their experiences with Israel and Iran over the course of years, and Saddam Hussein capitalized on world opinion against Iran to his advantage and made sure that Iraqi Air Force would receive some of the finest aircraft of the time including French Mirage F1 and Russian Mig-29.

 

[Trango Towers]

The war was not about Afghanistan. The one needed to be marginalized was marginalized. Iraq cannot stand on its own. Syria can't either win win as I see it. You can continue to put whatever lens that pleases you and let you see what you want to see... Just a note keeping the argument civil will get you heard more effectively.

Oh dear.....no point here

 

[CriticalThought]

Would someone PLEASE give the PDF version of 'Pierre Sprey' a lot of thanks for his 'technically insightful' post?

Technical insight went out the door with the tall claim of 28:1. But it died a premature death when somebody pulled out their di*k and called a di*k measuring contest.

Even disregarding the source of the 28:1 claim, one could give it attention if it simulated the entire kill chain. If those F-35s actually fired their internal load of 6 training BVRs to simulate an actual combat, and the targets were allowed to maneuver and deploy decoys or jam the missiles, and the F-35s either had to land for reload, or pull out of the fight, giving the targets further opportunity to locate them.

Amateurs have this two dimensional view of aerial warfare where the F-35 can easily see any incoming aircraft. Actual aerial warfare is 3 dimensional and the altitude is from the ground to 55000+ ft, including SAM and aerial threats. Targets can utilize cloud cover to hide thermal signatures and use decoys and jamming. The truth is, no professional airforce will give value to di*k measuring kids.

 

[gambit]

Technical insight went out the door with the tall claim of 28:1.

Fine. Then it is 18:1. Even if it is merely 5:1, that would still be a slaughter for any air force against US.

But it died a premature death when somebody pulled out their di*k and called a di*k measuring contest.

If you got'em, flaunt'em.

Even disregarding the source of the 28:1 claim, one could give it attention if it simulated the entire kill chain. If those F-35s actually fired their internal load of 6 training BVRs to simulate an actual combat, and the targets were allowed to maneuver and deploy decoys or jam the missiles, and the F-35s either had to land for reload, or pull out of the fight, giving the targets further opportunity to locate them.

If? I will give you a pass on these 'Ifs' merely because you have no military experience. I went twice to Red Flag, the first time as a participant, the second time as an observer. The 'Ifs' you slyly tried to make suspicious? We done'em, pal. And we done shit that no one think we could. That is the advantage of being wealthy. The rest of your post is covered by those 'Ifs'.

 

[CriticalThought]

F-35 is 'fat' because:

Clear enough?

As for F-35 variants being breakfast material for Flankers backed by A-100, absolutely not. Su-35S can notice and identify an F-35 at under 20 KM distance and A-100 might increase this capacity to 35 - 40 KM for the Flanker at most - not looking good. F-35 will take out Russian junk from afar.

And F-35 is not underpowered - rather overpowered due to being very efficient in terms of power consumption (packing lot of punch in EW consequently) while equipped with a very powerful engine which ensure superior performance than even an F-18 variant in war-fighting situations, offsetting the pressures of VLO while at it. F-35 variants (Block 3F) are incredibly maneuverable with T/W ratio of over 1:1, seamless potential for very tight turn rates, and to defeat a threat even in upside down posture - let this sink in. All F-35 aircraft are being uplifted to Block 3F standard at present, and will be uplifted to even more capable Block 4 standard in the 2020s.

It is fat in the sense of having a high drag coefficient. And unlike the Viper, it is fixed because of the need to internally house the feeble weapons load.

It is underpowered because 1.07 T/W is achieved with 50% internal fuel (per Wikipedia). This was exactly sprey's criticism. Additionally, in the event that it gets cornered, it doesn't have the Viper's Mach 2 speed spurt. And given that high drag, it is open to question how long it can sustain its supersonic speed.

It is highly maneuverable in the sub-sonic regime which is a liability at close quarters. Everybody assumes there will be this vacuum around it. In reality, in the heat of battle there is every possibility of close encounters.

Fine. Then it is 18:1. Even if it is merely 5:1, that would still be a slaughter for any air force against US.


If you got'em, flaunt'em.


If? I will give you a pass on these 'Ifs' merely because you have no military experience. I went twice to Red Flag, the first time as a participant, the second time as an observer. The 'Ifs' you slyly tried to make suspicious? We done'em, pal. And we done shit that no one think we could. That is the advantage of being wealthy. The rest of your post is covered by those 'Ifs'.

Doing it is the past doesn't mean you can do it today. Last I checked, the Pentagon was looking to beef up numbers with low cost fighters and sequestration was a thing. Wealthy indeed!

 

[ColonelSanders]

You are free to not believe and persuade others to take your side. The most important people are your air force's leadership. You need to convince them that the Americans are lying about the F-35.

I don't think there will be a need to convince PAF leadership because:
1. Pakistan can not afford these aircrafts atm
2. Even if they could, these things will come with so many bullshit clauses from US that there will be no point of buying the aircrafts

 

[gambit]

It is fat in the sense of having a high drag coefficient.

A higher (not high) Cd does not make the F-35 an 'inferior' fighter. This issue have been debated/debunked yrs ago. Just like Sprey, it is stale and no longer 'news'.

And unlike the Viper, it is fixed because of the need to internally house the feeble weapons load.

When I was active duty, just from visuals alone, we can tell when a fighter is lethal and when it is not. On the other hand, no one can tell if a B-52 is loaded or not. The 'feeble weapons load' criticism is a joke, not a criticism.

Standard CAP configuration is a four-ship flight. At the moment of contact, the flight changed to the standard two-ships combat spread. The problem is when -- not if -- the F-35 sniped even just one element, leaving a fighter unsupported.

Have you ever wondered why the Iran-Iraq war lasted as long as it did? Probably not, and probably you focused on peripheral issues like politics or ground maneuvers. What you and so many others missed is that the lack of overwhelming air power made that war lasted as long as it did. Whereas with Desert Storm, we took Iraq in days. Overwhelming US and allied airpower turned the war into a 2D war for the allies and a 3D war for the Iraqis.

Most air forces today cannot support dedicated platforms like a bomber. Russia is declining and China still have a long way to go before capable of wielding a dedicated bomber force like the US can. Yes, I know that the PLAAF have a few bombers.

What this mean is that against fighter-bombers, which is what most air forces have, the F-35's 'feeble weapons load' is more than adequate to deter any fighter-bomber flight from its target. Against a six- or eight-ships flight, all it take is two hits for the rest to jettison their bomb loads so that each can better defend itself, all the while wondering where the two missiles that killed two of their comrades came from.

The F-35 is tailored for the rest of the world, not for US. Do you get what I mean?

It is underpowered because 1.07 T/W is achieved with 50% internal fuel (per Wikipedia). This was exactly sprey's criticism.

That is why Sprey and Air Power Australia (APA) are no longer taken seriously. In flight, no jet is ever fully loaded with fuel. Just in case you did not know, fuel is a CONSUMABLE load.

Doing it is the past doesn't mean you can do it today. Last I checked, the Pentagon was looking to beef up numbers with low cost fighters and sequestration was a thing. Wealthy indeed!

That is like criticizing a man because he has 'only' $900 millions instead of a full billion. I have active duty friends at Nellis where the F-22 and Red Flag lives. I know better than you on what we can do. But I do not expect you to take my words for it. You are free to believe whatever you want because ultimately, it has to come down to war to know the truth, and right now, no air force want to take yours or Sprey's criticisms seriously.

Your criticism is petty, from drag coefficient to weapons load to 'only' how many F-35 we can build. Your criticisms are more for your own emotional needs to put US down a notch in your own mind, not because you know WTF you are talking about. Right now, more sober minds than you understand that a four-ships F-35 flight can augment a dozen F-16 to the point that it is futile to fight against. Against ground targets, those F-16s can sneak past any defender with the F-35's help.

It is over. The Lightning is dead. Long live the Lightning II.

Iraqi airforce was anything but professional.

What does it take to become a military pilot? I took flying lessons in the Cessna 152 when I was in high school. I did not have a car. My g/f and I took public transportation everywhere we do. When I joined the USAF, I already knew the basics of aerodynamics and flying. I often flew over Pearl Harbor to see the sunken Arizona and other ships.

The Iraqi Air Force pilots were no different. Each man had to be exceptional from the rest of the Iraqi society. The cockpit of the Cessna 152 was primitive compared to the cockpit of the F-111, my first assignment. In air combat, you cannot tell if your opponent is as well trained as you are. You have to assume he is at least your equal. So from that perspective, whether the Iraqi Air Force as a whole is as 'professional' as the USAF is irrelevant. In air combat, it is one-on-one. Over confidence kills.

 

[CriticalThought]

A higher (not high) Cd does not make the F-35 an 'inferior' fighter. This issue have been debated/debunked yrs ago. Just like Sprey, it is stale and no longer 'news'.


When I was active duty, just from visuals alone, we can tell when a fighter is lethal and when it is not. On the other hand, no one can tell if a B-52 is loaded or not. The 'feeble weapons load' criticism is a joke, not a criticism.

Standard CAP configuration is a four-ship flight. At the moment of contact, the flight changed to the standard two-ships combat spread. The problem is when -- not if -- the F-35 sniped even just one element, leaving a fighter unsupported.

Have you ever wondered why the Iran-Iraq war lasted as long as it did? Probably not, and probably you focused on peripheral issues like politics or ground maneuvers. What you and so many others missed is that the lack of overwhelming air power made that war lasted as long as it did. Whereas with Desert Storm, we took Iraq in days. Overwhelming US and allied airpower turned the war into a 2D war for the allies and a 3D war for the Iraqis.

Most air forces today cannot support dedicated platforms like a bomber. Russia is declining and China still have a long way to go before capable of wielding a dedicated bomber force like the US can. Yes, I know that the PLAAF have a few bombers.

What this mean is that against fighter-bombers, which is what most air forces have, the F-35's 'feeble weapons load' is more than adequate to deter any fighter-bomber flight from its target. Against a six- or eight-ships flight, all it take is two hits for the rest to jettison their bomb loads so that each can better defend itself, all the while wondering where the two missiles that killed two of their comrades came from.

The F-35 is tailored for the rest of the world, not for US. Do you get what I mean?


That is why Sprey and Air Power Australia (APA) are no longer taken seriously. In flight, no jet is ever fully loaded with fuel. Just in case you did not know, fuel is a CONSUMABLE load.


That is like criticizing a man because he has 'only' $900 millions instead of a full billion. I have active duty friends at Nellis where the F-22 and Red Flag lives. I know better than you on what we can do. But I do not expect you to take my words for it. You are free to believe whatever you want because ultimately, it has to come down to war to know the truth, and right now, no air force want to take yours or Sprey's criticisms seriously.

Your criticism is petty, from drag coefficient to weapons load to 'only' how many F-35 we can build. Your criticisms are more for your own emotional needs to put US down a notch in your own mind, not because you know WTF you are talking about. Right now, more sober minds than you understand that a four-ships F-35 flight can augment a dozen F-16 to the point that it is futile to fight against. Against ground targets, those F-16s can sneak past any defender with the F-35's help.

It is over. The Lightning is dead. Long live the Lightning II.

So, to summarize, the F-35 is good against 4th gen fighters, and in tandem with 4th gen fighters. OK. Your battles, your threats to face, your solution. I am not arguing it doesn't work. What I am arguing is that F-35 isn't the the epitome of aerodynamic performance such as the Viper, or a supreme balance of stealth and performance like the Raptor. In order for it to deliver results, the battle must unfold within very limited parameters. It's like a mum saying my baby is beautiful in the right light. Most people don't have the patience to see your baby in your favorite lighting conditions. Which is why I label it a mediocre fighter. And as airforces wisen up to these tactics, airforces such as Russia and China, it will be one expensive paper weight.

You try hard to dismiss criticism as petty. What is petty about the fact that F-35 drag cannot be varied through choice of weapons or jettisoning of external tanks? It is a constant drag it will carry everywhere, in all mission profiles. It will be a liability in close quarters combat in furball format. Sure, you dream of using F-16s/18s/15s as the tip of the spear with F-35 acting as a mini-AWACS. But you are not willing to consider what happens when the enemy brings a monster AWACS + jammer that simply brute forces your comms and stealth. Or sends a CHAMPS like missile to fry your electronics. It is your burden to prove your tactics in battle before you come here and harp about your 'superiority'. I have no bone to pick with America and I am frank in apportioning tributes where I see technological superiority. As things stand, you don't have a case, you have a lot of hot air.

 

[MastanKhan]

Define professional Air Force.
Even then Pakistani COAS Mirza Aslam Beg was of the view that Iraq will be another Vietnam for US prior to the war.

Hi,

Mirza Aslam Baig was totally clueless about the firepower of the US military---and that being the pakistani military chief---.

That is a matter of shame for a military of a nation---a nation that was closely associated with the US---.

On the second day he states---" oh we did not know about the firepower of the US military "---.

Me and many like me knew about it at that time---and the group that we discussed the issue---we were shocked at pakistan's military command being so illiterate about it---.

" That happens when in your anger you stopped listening and stop observing and your personal grudges and issues cloud your judgement ".

And this is openly evident from the reaction of majority pakistani posters on this forum---