F-22P a bad decision by PN?

[TaimiKhan]

shell we take a vote to find out "Who is the most stupid?"
candidate 1: PN,choosing chinese frigates rather than US's [175M vs 0];
candidate 2: IN, choosing russian carrier rather than US's [20+B vs 0];
candidate 3:USN, offering ships at "000000" dollars;

Nobody is stupid, we being sitting here have the luxury to talk all we want, but the people sitting at the decision making helm have the real picture of what to do & what to buy based on the options available, resources availability & threat perception. Criticism would always be there as in the world there is no perfect weapon system, there is always give & take.

 

[zagahaga]

if i may say pakistan should just put its ships for defencive role and subs for offencive role wid a couple stealthy destroyers ...........wouldent that work

 

[Righteous_Fire]

Nobody is stupid, we being sitting here have the luxury to talk all we want, but the people sitting at the decision making helm have the real picture of what to do & what to buy based on the options available, resources availability & threat perception. Criticism would always be there as in the world there is no perfect weapon system, there is always give & take.

^ Approve

I love the discussion here knowing that the PN is not as armed as we all would love it to be, posters especially Growler, Penguin, Taimi and many other, do a good job of keeping the discussion tech based and true.

Keep it up.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

1. because china is a friend and not the mother of pakistan, we can work out very nice terms but there is a limit we cant just give away 500 million dollar ship for 250 brand new, also 054 were not around at the time the f22p's were ordered
2.yes but the orders would have to have been placed ealier and at that time the tech was just not there in china
3.i like the us ships too but theres not many of them the us is willing to give to pakistan, other wise take all u can while they're still cheap and avalible

no hard feelings..
pak-us politics aside.. but we are certainly getting better if not equally as good Frigate from US the OHP then F-22P which costs almost 3 times more. of course OHP is used but still when upgraded it is much better deal. ASROC, HARPOON, SM-2, MK48 much better armament package.
One thing is for sure, PAk china friendship is merely based on self interests and not what we all pakistanis pretend to think.
Btw pakistan negotiated F-22P deal in 2005 and certianly China never offers us their best of the best equipments..

 

[MastanKhan]

shell we take a vote to find out "Who is the most stupid?"
candidate 1: PN,choosing chinese frigates rather than US's [175M vs 0];
candidate 2: IN, choosing russian carrier rather than US's [20+B vs 0];
candidate 3:USN, offering ships at "000000" dollars;

Hi,

The ships that the u s is offering are stripped down----bare---naked---nothing but the structure engine and machinery to run the ship---everything else is an upgrade---and that will cost a pretty penny---almost the cost of the chinese frigate---

secondly---there will be restriction on what we can use them for---they can be re-called anytime by the u s in case of war with india---.

F 22 are ours to do what we deem fit.

 

[MastanKhan]

Originally Posted by Growler
the question is if china is our best friend then why did it not offer better technology like type-054 with the same price tag as f-22P?


Hi,

The last time we ordered ships from china---we could not even pay for them---ultimately we told china to induct them in their navy---.

Then we ordered the F 7 PG's and could not pay for them---and they sat in china---till we needed them on an urgent basis

This is what pak navy ordered---that is what they are getting---if they wanted the type 54----they will get that as well.

Whatever the best tech that china has---is available to pak millitary if they have the money to put up.

 

[ejaz007]

Whats the point of this discussion especially when the first ship has arrived in Pakistan. Shouldn't we move beyond this discussion.

---------- Post added at 09:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:13 AM ----------

First F-22P Frigate arrives

KARACHI: PNS Zulfiqar, the first F-22P frigate of the Pakistan Navy, arrived on Saturday amid the ongoing naval exercise in the Arabian Sea. A navy press release said the ship, constructed in China, was welcomed by the navy’s surface and aviation units conducting the exercise. The PNS Zulfiqar is the first of four ships being constructed in collaboration with China in Shanghai. app

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

 

[ejaz007]

First Sword Class Frigate Arrives In Pakistan
By USMAN ANSARI
Published: 13 Sep 2009 14:55

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - The Pakistan Navy's first Sword/F-22P class frigate arrived in Karachi on Sept. 13.

According to a press release from the Pakistan navy, before entering Karachi Port the frigate undertook its first exercise with other ships and aerial assets of the fleet in the Arabian Sea, all under the watchful gaze of Rear Adm. Asif Sandila, commander of the Pakistan fleet.

Related TopicsMiddle East & Africa
PNS Zulfiquar, a modification of the Type-53H3 design, was constructed at Shanghai's Hudong Zhonghua Shipyard and was commissioned on July 30 this year. Two other ships of the class have also been constructed at the shipyard and will sail for Pakistan in the third quarter of next year.

The fourth ship is currently undergoing construction in Karachi under a transfer of technology deal. The steel cutting ceremony for the so-far unnamed ship took place in March this year, and it is expected to join the fleet by 2013.

The class is armed with an all-Chinese weapons fit consisting of a 76.2mm main gun, developed from the Russian AK-176M; eight C-802/CSS-N-8 Saccade anti-ship missiles; an eight-round FM-90, which is an improved variant of the HQ-7, itself a copy of the Thomson-CSF Crotale; two hangar-top Type-730 30mm CIWS units; RDC-32 anti-submarine rockets; and two triple ET-52C torpedo tubes. A single Harbin Z-9EC ASW helicopter is also embarked, which provides over-the-horizon targeting for the C-802 anti-ship missiles. According to the navy, two Z-9EC helicopters have already arrived in Pakistan.

The arrival of PNS Zulfiquar marks the first time in Pakistan's history in which it has received a new-build major frontline warship. To date all acquisitions have been surplus ships mainly from the U.S. and United Kingdom. The navy's frontline fleet currently consists of six aging ex-Royal Navy Type-21 frigates of 1970s vintage, three of which are fitted with Chinese LY-60N SAM armament, and the remainder with Boeing RGM-84A Harpoon anti-ship missiles due to space and top weight limitations. That makes the 3144-ton Sword class frigates considerably more versatile.

PNS Zulfiquar is expected to be formally accepted by the navy this coming week.

First Sword Class Frigate Arrives In Pakistan - Defense News

 

[fatman17]

PN gets frigate built in China By Our Reporter

Sunday, 13 Sep, 2009

KARACHI, Sept 12: The first F-22 P frigate of the Pakistan Navy, PNS Zulfiquar, constructed in China, arrived here on Saturday and took part in the ongoing naval exercises in the Arabian Sea.

The ship was welcomed by the PN surface and aviation units conducting exercises. PNS Zulfiquar also participated in its very first naval exercises, which were witnessed by the Commander of Pakistan Fleet, Rear Admiral Asif Sandila.

After taking part in the exercises, the ship proceeded to Karachi harbour.

PNS Zulfiquar is the first of four ships being built in collaboration with China at Hudong Zhonghua shipyard in Shanghai. The second and third ships are also nearing completion and expected to be handed over to Pakistan next year. The fourth ship is under construction at Karachi Shipyard and is to be completed by 2013.

F-22 P frigate is a Sword class ship equipped with long range surface-to-surface and surface-to-air missiles, depth charges, torpedos, latest automatic 76mm guns, close-in-weapon system, sensors, electronic warfare and advanced command and control system.

 

[Guest]

the question is if china is our best friend then why did it not offer better technology like type-054 with the same price tag as f-22P?

let's forget about the russian factors first. are you sure PN is willing to purchase someting immature from china. i have seen "we will not induct anything until it is mass producted in china" all over the forum.

btw, can i re-write this "if clause" as : china is not our best friend because it did not offer better technology like type-054 with the same price tag as f-22P!

Nobody is stupid, we being sitting here have the luxury to talk all we want, but the people sitting at the decision making helm have the real picture of what to do & what to buy based on the options available, resources availability & threat perception. Criticism would always be there as in the world there is no perfect weapon system, there is always give & take.

that is exactly what i meant.
one more thing, the HHQ-7s was replaced by the HHQ-16s on the 054As. HHQ-9s are for 052C dertroyers.

The ships that the u s is offering are stripped down----bare---naked---nothing but the structure engine and machinery to run the ship---everything else is an upgrade---and that will cost a pretty penny---almost the cost of the chinese frigate---

not everyone,at least 2, here don't belived they are stripped down.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Hi,

The ships that the u s is offering are stripped down----bare---naked---nothing but the structure engine and machinery to run the ship---everything else is an upgrade---and that will cost a pretty penny---almost the cost of the chinese frigate---

secondly---there will be restriction on what we can use them for---they can be re-called anytime by the u s in case of war with india---.

F 22 are ours to do what we deem fit.

Huh? i am so shocked you said this sir... FFG-08 will be upgraded with up to date ASW systems like VL MK41 for rum139 ASROC hull mounted sonar re installed Mk13 for Harpoon and SM2... it will not arrive in pakistan striped down.... everything will be upgraded. which will be paid from US funds worth 65 million dollars.
and why will their be restrictions? their is no such things.. everything is cleared.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

The last time we ordered ships from china---we could not even pay for them---ultimately we told china to induct them in their navy---.

Then we ordered the F 7 PG's and could not pay for them---and they sat in china---till we needed them on an urgent basis

and what happend to long term credit payment program? were their such thing proposed to the chinese or they could not agree to it? only after hard time negotiation did they agree for F-22P payment program. Mind you F-22P is not even 100% chinese indigenous development from scratch. most of it is reverse engendered so they should not be thinking of profits if we are talking about china trying to help out pakistan. so in reality their is no such thing..

This is what pak navy ordered---that is what they are getting---if they wanted the type 54----they will get that as well.

then we would have to wait 10-15 years for that... chinese wont give us their top of the line products at the same time that they have newly introduced.

Whatever the best tech that china has---is available to pak millitary if they have the money to put up.

We wanted upgraded J-10A and we have to wait 10 years and even after that most of the important systems like radar avionics armaments etc are of non chinese origin.
by the time we get FC-20 IAF MKI will be close to Su-35BM league.

 

[SEAL]

yar why are you angry with Chinese it was PN who decided to purchase 22p's (i think mushi was behind this deal.).

 

[MastanKhan]

Gentlemen,

I apoligize---when I wrote stripped down---I meant something different.

The americans will take out all the weapons systems and computers----pakistan will get to upgrade whatever is available to them---they won't arrive stripped down in pakistan. The accessory packagae will be added in the u s. Thankyou---I hope this made it simple to understand.


The restriction would be on against whom we can go to war with those ships---.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Where are you going to get the pilots to fly all the fc 20's----these pilots are not growing on trees---PAF doesnot have the capability to absorb so many different aircraft---where are all the technicians going to come from----the logistics---air and ground supporty teams---there are a million and one things that would need to be done----.

Paf is going to have a tough time absorbing a large number of JF 17's along with the blk 52 f 16's plus the MLU f 16's---plus the the air tankers---their support crew and logistics---plus the awacs and their support crew and logistics----.

It's a nightmare situation for paf---for the next 10 years or so---every thing has to work perfectly for the air force for it to be a force to recon with---every T needs to be crossed and every i dotted.

My thinking is that PAF may have chewed on more than it can swallow---but I hope that I am proven wrong and they come out of it smelling like roses.