F-22P a bad decision by PN?

[Arsalan]

Hi,

Where are you going to get the pilots to fly all the fc 20's----these pilots are not growing on trees---PAF doesnot have the capability to absorb so many different aircraft---where are all the technicians going to come from----the logistics---air and ground supporty teams---there are a million and one things that would need to be done----.

Paf is going to have a tough time absorbing a large number of JF 17's along with the blk 52 f 16's plus the MLU f 16's---plus the the air tankers---their support crew and logistics---plus the awacs and their support crew and logistics----.

It's a nightmare situation for paf---for the next 10 years or so---every thing has to work perfectly for the air force for it to be a force to recon with---every T needs to be crossed and every i dotted.

My thinking is that PAF may have chewed on more than it can swallow---but I hope that I am proven wrong and they come out of it smelling like roses.

perhaps posted it here by mistake,,
am i right sir???

 

[Arsalan]

by the way those in support of OHP frigates from US can you kindly tel us which helicopter will we have to use with them, any deal in this regard, what will be the options,, do you think it will be the same old chopper that we already are using with Type21 and as type 21 may be retired soon do those chopper will come to OHP???
i am looking forward to your response fellows!!

regards!

 

[MastanKhan]

perhaps posted it here by mistake,,
am i right sir???

Hi,

No---my young colleague wanted to know why we didnot get the fc 20's sooner---.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Hi,

Where are you going to get the pilots to fly all the fc 20's----these pilots are not growing on trees---PAF doesnot have the capability to absorb so many different aircraft---where are all the technicians going to come from----the logistics---air and ground supporty teams---there are a million and one things that would need to be done----.

Just like we got pilots, technicians, logistics back in 1980s for brand new top of the line F-16s. mind you we were only operating 2nd and 3rd generation fighters and went straight from 40s era F-86 and straight to the most modern fighter's cockpit. that will be like PAF entering in F-22 cockpit from F-16.

Paf is going to have a tough time absorbing a large number of JF 17's along with the blk 52 f 16's plus the MLU f 16's---plus the the air tankers---their support crew and logistics---plus the awacs and their support crew and logistics----.

a tough time? who are we? iraqi air force? too much of pessimistic remark regarding PAF capability. PAF knows F-16s in side out like a mother knows her son.

It's a nightmare situation for paf---for the next 10 years or so---every thing has to work perfectly for the air force for it to be a force to recon with---every T needs to be crossed and every i dotted.

again. we are not iraqi or afgani air force. our AF personals are very professionals and fully capable to meet any challenges.

My thinking is that PAF may have chewed on more than it can swallow---but I hope that I am proven wrong and they come out of it smelling like roses.

sorry with all due respect but i think you are very very wrong with your perception about PAF..

 

[Myth_buster_1]

by the way those in support of OHP frigates from US can you kindly tel us which helicopter will we have to use with them, any deal in this regard, what will be the options,, do you think it will be the same old chopper that we already are using with Type21 and as type 21 may be retired soon do those chopper will come to OHP???
i am looking forward to your response fellows!!

regards!

super lynx maybe?

 

[MastanKhan]

Just like we got pilots, technicians, logistics back in 1980s for brand new top of the line F-16s. mind you we were only operating 2nd and 3rd generation fighters and went straight from 40s era F-86 and straight to the most modern fighter's cockpit. that will be like PAF entering in F-22 cockpit from F-16.


a tough time? who are we? iraqi air force? too much of pessimistic remark regarding PAF capability. PAF knows F-16s in side out like a mother knows her son.


again. we are not iraqi or afgani air force. our AF personals are very professionals and fully capable to meet any challenges.


sorry with all due respect but i think you are very very wrong with your perception about PAF..

Hi,

For a moment I thought that you knew what you were talking about---but then when I re-read your post---and you mentioned about F 16---like a mother knows her son----I realized that you are just doing the pakistani 'talk big'----just trying to wing it---.

Blk 52 has nothing in common with the block 15----just the name and similiar shape---.

The first 36 were spread over 2---4 years---a very basic fighter----and we had all the time in the world to learn about it----.

Now we are integrating a JF 17 a new plane with totally new weapons system---we don't even know to the full extent what role this plane may play in the paf---we can all assume what we may----and then we have to induct 250 of these into the airforce---the first 50 will be different than the second 50 in electronics and possibly engine---

We are also getting 18 blk 52's----and then we will start getting the mlu's.

We have a full agenda with the swedish awacs---and then we are getting 4 chinese awacs as well----

On top of that---there are the 4 air refuellers to deal with---.

Remember---we are talking about pakistan---we are a poor nation with limited resources----but with insurmountable egos---bigger than mount everest and cockiness and strut of that of a 'karaknaas' rooster in heat.

Indeed we are not iraqi airforce----but that doesnot mean that we have unlimited resources---we only have a limited number of flyers coming out of our training academies----there are only a certain numbers of technicians and support staff that we can afford to train---

Now there is a problem with top heavy air force---what does that mean---with a sudden influx of new aircraft inducted into the airforce---the direction of the air force will naturally shift to learn more about that plane---it is just like a rope tied between to high rises----you put weight---the rope will bow down----till you re-tighten the screws to bring the rope back straight to bear the weight as it stands---.

Bottomline is that pakistan doesnot have the resource---either money or manpower to integrate so many systems on the run---.

In this scenario---difference of opinion doesnot matter---technology is a technical issue---it is not influenced by sarcasm, rhetoric or plain bravado---.

Bottomline---PAF will be treading on a razor's edge for the next 5 years---truthfully---this is the most difficult time for the PAF---not when we had nothing---now when we are going to get everything---that is the scariest of the periods---it is the fear of loss---it is the fear of losing face---it is the fear of making mistakes---the world is watching---.

How you tell the differnce of the men from the boyz---you gotta look at the price of their toyz.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

For a moment I thought that you knew what you were talking about---but then when I re-read your post---and you mentioned about F 16---like a mother knows her son----I realized that you are just doing the pakistani 'talk big'----just trying to wing it---.

If i was doing the "pakistani big talk" then you will find me saying..... FC-20 is the best 4.5 generation MRCA... F-22P is one of the best frigate, MKI sucks etc.. but here i am merely stating facts and not being and neither being a pessimistic....

Blk 52 has nothing in common with the block 15----just the name and similiar shape---.

even we keep going like this then we are going to end up going off topic...
You think PAF is just sitting quite playing dumb and dull not knowing block 52 capabilities not developing tactics no strategy no thing and certianly not going to US for training??? It will be better if we drop your issue of PAF on a sharp razzor for the next 10 years because we are inducting new systems.. infact new technology boots yours forces capability.. you are treating PAF unfairly... undermining their capabilities... like i said before... PAF went straight from 2nd and 3rd generation to 4th generation state of the art cockpit.... logistically or technically PAF was not on a "sharp razzor" in 80s but financially broke!!!! remember PAF was second AF to use F-16s in combat with in 2-3 years of induction!!!

Remember---we are talking about pakistan---we are a poor nation with limited resources----but with insurmountable egos---bigger than mount everest and cockiness and strut of that of a 'karaknaas' rooster in heat.

remeber PAF is not dumb and stupid or illiterate! they know how to operate their equipments as good as any other nation----- the only problem when we buy such equipments in large scale our economy is effected....

Bottomline---PAF will be treading on a razor's edge for the next 5 years---truthfully---this is the most difficult time for the PAF---not when we had nothing---now when we are going to get everything---that is the scariest of the periods---it is the fear of loss---it is the fear of losing face---it is the fear of making mistakes---the world is watching---.

 

[MastanKhan]

If i was doing the "pakistani big talk" then you will find me saying..... FC-20 is the best 4.5 generation MRCA... F-22P is one of the best frigate, MKI sucks etc.. but here i am merely stating facts and not being and neither being a pessimistic....


even we keep going like this then we are going to end up going off topic...
You think PAF is just sitting quite playing dumb and dull not knowing block 52 capabilities not developing tactics no strategy no thing and certianly not going to US for training??? It will be better if we drop your issue of PAF on a sharp razzor for the next 10 years because we are inducting new systems.. infact new technology boots yours forces capability.. you are treating PAF unfairly... undermining their capabilities... like i said before... PAF went straight from 2nd and 3rd generation to 4th generation state of the art cockpit.... logistically or technically PAF was not on a "sharp razzor" in 80s but financially broke!!!! remember PAF was second AF to use F-16s in combat with in 2-3 years of induction!!!


remeber PAF is not dumb and stupid or illiterate! they know how to operate their equipments as good as any other nation----- the only problem when we buy such equipments in large scale our economy is effected....

Growler,

You need to stop arguing----the issue is of integration of high end multiple systems at the same time---no millitary in the world is immune to issues that evolve when new systems are being integrated into the services----.

The word used for them is-----"GROWING PAINS"----yes the same words we parents use in relation to our 'little and older' children---growing pains---.

You are talking about about how smart PAF is---right now that is not the issue---being smart on not smart has nothing to do with it----going from 2nd and 3rd generation to 4th gen is a smaller issue---.

The issue is an over whelming number of equipment coming in---all at the same time---that is the major issue.


" remember PAF was second AF to use F-16s in combat with in 2-3 years of induction!!! "


It hs nothing to do with what I am saying over here.

In millitary---new technology doesnot neccessarily immediately boost your forces capabilities----it is how successfully you integrate the system that boosts the capability---it also depends upon the infra structure that you have in place to support that technology----that is where the man behind the machine myth evolved.

It is the lack of critical spare parts in the initial stages, that create major headaches---it may not be the major items that break down----but the smaller items---critical for daily usage that break down during actual field integration---how to overcome those issues and what to do about them---.

Initially the select few are incharge of maintaining the systems in the initial stages----but when the system gets into the regular service arena in higher numbers---the threshold of service and upkeep goes to a different level---it goes from a closed and well observed environment to an open field less supervised servicing and maintenance---.

Now you have service manuals---with time, the service manuals get thicker and thicker because newer issues popped up when the equipment was sent to the field

The select few will train a larger number of staff---who in turn will train others to do the same job----this is where the problems arise in any integration process---it is time consuming---it is detail oriented---.

Now when you have close to 325 new planes coming into the force within 4---6 years and those being 4th and 4 plus generation---it is taking and stretching the abilities of the millitary to the extreme extent.

There is no comparison between 36 ( f 16 ), 70's version planes and the planes of today----they are a world apart.

It is just like an automobile----a technician would know each and everything about a car produced in the 70's---when it came to the 80's----the mechanic had issues---he had to specialise in only one or two different kinds of cars and took him awhile to learn the issues----now when it came to the 90's and 2000 year series cars----the same mechanic got into doing a specialized job---either brakes, engine / transmission or electrical systems---this is integration---

The course that the first technician took in the 70's----actually there was hardly a course---alll cars were similiar in system and function---the techs will smoke, have coffe, cut jokes with the instructor andget their certificates---then the courses got real in 80's----90's saw a totally different tech---2000---the same technician is overwhelmed with what he faces today. It is understood that today's tech in not able to fully diagnose your car

So to compare 36, 70 's vintage f 16's to today's blk 52 is stretching it a bit too far.


Live and learn---my kids do the same to me---so a to you as well.

 

[ambersjay]

this thread has gone completely offtopic now.anyways, growler is right in his assertion that F22P is indeed an overpriced low end frigate.the C 803 is backdated and quite useless against modern modern SAMs like BARAK NG soon to be inducted by IN and CIWS like barak and kashtans.not to mention, the seeker is probably vulnerable to modern ECM and ECCM.and the chinese copy of croatale SAMs on board F22s are just that.....a copy...and according to reports, an inferior copy.on ASuW front, less said the better!

the point is, F22 is totally ill equipped to handle the threats it will face.facing brahmos,klubs,kilos,scorpenes,akula,arihants is not a job you'd want to do with a outdated and inferior system.and at 750 million $ ,its not at all cheap! with couple of hundreads more PN could have had any world class frigates on offer from european yards.

 

[muse]

Ridiculous. The C803 weapon is formidable and whether or not it is the equal of Barak or other systems is simply meaningless; the comparison does not hold. It is also suggested that the C803 seeker is "probably" vulnerable to a variety of electro/magnetic jamming, we can assert in the same way that it "probably" is not, these are meaningless statements.

Is the F22 overpriced? This question requires a more detailed understanding of the systems incorporated and the kinds of technologies and manufacturing that may be involved in the deal, that is to say we cannot make such a general statement with the paucity of information about the weapons and the details of the transaction. Again, it would be meaningless to assert anything credible about this aspect of the deal.

We might want to keep our powder dry until we have more details of the transaction and the kinds of capabilities the platform is equipped with.

 

[TaimiKhan]

F-22P has C-802 not C-803 as AshM.

Plus with that logic that IN has Barak & Kashtan CIWS, then i believe even Harpoon, Exocet & any Indian AshM missile would be futile to launch too as all can be taken down with any good CIWS.

Up till now nearly which ever military product China has copied, they have modified it & made it better then the original product. It needs study to come to know what China has manufactured & what its specifications are.

If China is making so much pathetic weapon system, then i don't understand why US think tanks always saying that China is about a decade to 15 years away to reach our current level of military or why China is displaying its weapon systems on international exhibitions knowing that these weapons will be evaluated & are in competition to the western weapon systems.

Whenever a weapon system is bought, the buyer country tests the system to its fullest, making sure that all the parameters are working fine & are equal or superior to the currently available in market.

 

[ambersjay]

Ridiculous. The C803 weapon is formidable and whether or not it is the equal of Barak or other systems is simply meaningless; the comparison does not hold. It is also suggested that the C803 seeker is "probably" vulnerable to a variety of electro/magnetic jamming, we can assert in the same way that it "probably" is not, these are meanikngless statements.

Is the F22 overpriced? This question requires a more detailed understanding of the systems incorportaed and the kinds of technologies and manufacturing that may be involved in the deal, that is to say we cannot make such a general statement with the paucity of information about the weapons and the details of the transaction. Again, it would be meanigless to assert anything credible about this aspect of the deal.

We might want to keep our powder dry until we have more deatils of the transaction and the kinds of capablities the platform is equipped with.

C803 is hardly formidable.its only supersonic in terminal phase which provides ample time to prepare....and with various hard kill options available to IN,chances of scoring a hit is very low.as for soft kills....IN has access to russian, european ,israeli and indigenous ECM and ECCMs.chinese options are limited only to russian and whatever they could come up with.

 

[muse]

C803 is hardly formidable.its only supersonic in terminal phase which provides ample time to prepare....and with various hard kill options available to IN,chances of scoring a hit is very low.as for soft kills....IN has access to russian, european ,israeli and indigenous ECM and ECCMs.chinese options are limited only to russian and whatever they could come up with

That It is supersonic in it's terminal phase does not mean it is slow walking towards it's target - please make sense. And that the IN may be better equipped is not the subject of the topic, after all the F22P is not being procured to single handedly take on the IN.

 

[ambersjay]

F-22P has C-802 not C-803 as AshM.

Plus with that logic that IN has Barak & Kashtan CIWS, then i believe even Harpoon, Exocet & any Indian AshM missile would be futile to launch too as all can be taken down with any good CIWS.

Up till now nearly which ever military product China has copied, they have modified it & made it better then the original product. It needs study to come to know what China has manufactured & what its specifications are.

If China is making so much pathetic weapon system, then i don't understand why US think tanks always saying that China is about a decade to 15 years away to reach our current level of military or why China is displaying its weapon systems on international exhibitions knowing that these weapons will be evaluated & are in competition to the western weapon systems.

Whenever a weapon system is bought, the buyer country tests the system to its fullest, making sure that all the parameters are working fine & are equal or superior to the currently available in market.

C802 is even worse, its bulky and subsonic all the way.as for any good CIWS taking down AshMs, its still hard to take down a salvo of mach 3 missiles performing S curve terminal maneuvers.

claims of chinese copies being superior than the originals is highly doubtful.i would take claims made in chinese media with a bucketfull of salt.

 

[muse]

In which case nothing to get excited about.