F-22 Raptor pilots practice simulated combat against Pakistan, UK & France Pilots

[blain2]

Hi,

Your argument seems like the participants are living in ETHER and impotency has no effect over loss---. There is always the human factor at stake when you go into any competition---where only thing that you can represent is ' how many different ways you can be pummelled into submission '---those competitions have never been known to be learing experience for anyone---rather a lesson in futility.

I am just basing this discussion on the F22 and the F 7 pg's---I am pretty sure that there were other fields that pak would have learnt somethings and that is well and good---.

Yes the point is that you learn from a programmatic and mission planning standpoint. Otherwise it is useless for anyone to participate in an exercise where F-22s are involved. Air to Air is one aspect of the exercise. Participants get insight into mission planning and execution against various types of threats from air and ground. As I have said before, for any PAF pilot that is valuable learning given that we currently do not face any 5th generation aircraft.

It is just like putting your SKODA against the FERRARI racing team and then saying,' we are here to learn even though you will beats the pants off us '---oh gee---.

Inappropriate example given the fact that the format and intent of these exercises is not just one-on-one DACT or one type against another, rather teaching pilots how to conduct complex missions where air to surface missions are just as important as air to air roles.

For learing experience for F 7 pg fighters, they can be pitched against anything else except the F22, F35, F 15, Typhoon's, su 30's---.

They flew with and against old and new F-16s and Mirages. Seems like a perfect opportunity.

You know why they have different leagues in sports---so that similiar teams can compete against each other---you know why they don't have competition amongst the teams in dissimiliar leagues---because they know that the superior team would pummel the inferior team to kingdom come---the psychology of humiliating defeat would be so great that the losing team will be emotionally pulverized.

It would help to understand the format and methodology used in such training exercises before simplistically assuming that its a case of a sqn of F-22s against the hapless F-7PGs. PAF does not spend millions of dollars to send their aircraft and aircrews to get their arses handed to them. There is a reasoning, logic and approach to such training exercises.

if this system was so great and there was such a great learning experience, then light weight boxers would be fighting against the heavy weight boxers---getting pummelled---but they did indeed learn a valuable lesson if they lived through it---DON'T MESS WITH THE BIG DOG.

Do not know about you, but I grappled (Greco-Roman) in my past and it always made sense to go up against a heavier wrestler in practice than your weight just because it made the real match in the same weight class a bit more manageable.

The exercises conducted are more technical in nature to be compared with the sparring of pugilists and grapplers, however the benefits of training against a very difficult adversary is a great way of learning to get better.

 

[MastanKhan]

That is because the Euros know that if push come to shove, the US will come to Europe's defense with the best we got.

Hi,

Why not---europe is america's personal fiefdom---they are the u s's vassal states---it is not because of europes knowing---it is because what u s would want to do---the u s of a, has its scent, marking every bit and corner of europe with its testosterones---nobody dare sniff into the forbidden grounds.

Plus the euros don't have the money to psend on an F 22 type fighter.

 

[owais.usmani]

Few pictures of F-22 from this exercise in UAE:

 

[owais.usmani]

 

[MastanKhan]

Yes the point is that you learn from a programmatic and mission planning standpoint. Otherwise it is useless for anyone to participate in an exercise where F-22s are involved. Air to Air is one aspect of the exercise. Participants get insight into mission planning and execution against various types of threats from air and ground. As I have said before, for any PAF pilot that is valuable learning given that we currently do not face any 5th generation aircraft.


Hi,

Paks need to learn and understand that there is no oppurtunity to learn and understand when you send your F7pg's against high end aircraft---pakistanis also need to understand to stop arguing in futility about these games---. It has truly become an ego of paks to want to be somebody that they are not. Argument just for the sake of argument is futile.

The americans wanted to test their F22's against the glorified pak pilots in their F 7 pg's just to make sure if there was any iota of a doubt left anywhere---maybe the famed pak pilot can pull a trick or two or a rabbit out of their hats---guess what---there was nothing left in there---all the tricks had been played and accounted for---all the rabbits had been used in the prior acrobats---. Even though the money spent in dispatching the planes may very well have come out from the u s aid---so no big deal---.

This excercise was just to put the pak pilots in their place---paks think that they will play one or two tricks with the american forces and they will be at the top of the game---. The only reason the u s does these games is to make sure that it knows how to tackle everyone of them one at a time at their own game---u s does not like any surprises---this game was also to give a CHECK MATE to the paks---who have been strutting a little bit.

War games are no greco roman wrestling and neither is boxing where a heavy weight can send some one of a lower weight to kingdom come just with one hit. Over here you can't tap three times to let go off.

It is not an excericise of a tame draw---it is a battle amongst testosterone high fighter jocks where the loser will always feel impotent---it is not between the american reds and blues---same army training against each other for a better performance---it is men of one nation pitched against the men of another nation---in maybe a friendly but truly a realistic mock combat.

And it is not DACT this time in real sense---it was an all out by every plane against the F 22.

 

[echo 1]

My friend Pakistan always has a trick up there sleev. It is pitted against a military 6 to 7 times its size and is constantly having to prove that it can defend its boarders. When India sent fully armed fighter/bombers to Pakistans gates during this past year they were met with the iron fist of Pakistan. Pakistan was able to scramble its fighters within minutes. They were not even in the air but managed to take off and fend away the intruders. So don't count Pakistan out just yet be patient and lets see what comes out of this at the end of the exercise. I am sure whatever the top guys did they did for a reason.

 

[PAFAce]

One of two things can happen when you get your behind handed to you in comptition; you either lick your wounds, focus down and come back far stronger, or, you are demoralized to the point where you can't regain your composure anymore. MastanKhan, blain2 & Mark Sien appear to be focusing on only one of the two aspects, when in reality, it could very well be a combination.

I, however, tend to agree with the latter two a bit more. Sending the F-7PGs up against the Block 60 and the F-22, the PAF would have foreseen that the possibility of being outclassed in every respect was very real. Hence, it is very likely that they sent pilots with enough years behind them to not be phased by something of this sort, and who can monitor, study and decipher the moves of the relatively inexperienced opposition (if we are to go by the USAF personnel's words) and develop counter tactics once they got back. This way, the human factor works in our favor, rather than against us; our pilots know they lost this meaningless battle to win a potential future war. And in any case, if we are to go by MuradK's words, PAF pilots take a lot of beating as young airmen to make sure their ego doesn't outgrow their flying abilities. Overall, I think that being a part of the first ever F-22 exercise in the desert was a very good decision by the PAF, there certainly is a lot to be gained from this, I really do.

When I started playing Rugby, I was put on the B team, which always lost games. I complained to the Captain of the A team, who replied that he himself had played on the B team for 2 years, and that "you learn a lot faster and a lot more when you lose than when you win". My experiences have shown that to be true for more than just Rugby, it applies to Engineering as well. I am sure it applied to flying too.

My friend Pakistan always has a trick up there sleev. It is pitted against a military 6 to 7 times its size and is constantly having to prove that it can defend its boarders. When India sent fully armed fighter/bombers to Pakistans gates during this past year they were met with the iron fist of Pakistan. Pakistan was able to scramble its fighters within minutes. They were not even in the air but managed to take off and fend away the intruders. So don't count Pakistan out just yet be patient and lets see what comes out of this at the end of the exercise. I am sure whatever the top guys did they did for a reason.

Well, that's all good, but you can't base your defence on unquantifiable elements alone. The Indian intrusions into our airspace were warnings and probes, they could have taken it much further, but they didn't (smart move on their part). Credit must be given to the PAF, no doubt, for showing incredible preparedness which would have dampened Indian spirits, they weren't given much choice than to high-tail it out, but the Officers of the PAF would be the first to tell you that they are severely outmatched in quantity as well as quality of equipment. Superior training, discipline and standards can take you far, but only up to a point, then the lack of strength catches up to you.

I think even the most die hard enthusiast of the PAF, which I claim to be, will realise that the PAF's main adversary's war fighting potential is far ahead. And in this lies the answer to MastanKhan's question, the PAF must prepare for the absolute worst it can, because only then will it be able to prepare for the might, at least on paper, of the IAF. The PAF is seriously trying to beef itself up now, we're hearing very good news which is sure to close the gaps. The Aerial Refuelers, AWACs, fighters with more muscle and high numbers will surely help a lot.

 

[ice_man]

with all due respect...i am sorry but i think these pics are fake....kinda look photoshopped... maybe i am wrong....

 

[owais.usmani]

with all due respect...i am sorry but i think these pics are fake....kinda look photoshopped... maybe i am wrong....

Yes you are wrong.

 

[desiman]

alot of people think the f-22 is a bad plane ... that it cant take on the su-30 or su-35 in combat but when i asked pilots who had f 18 hornets going up against f 22 they saide that when they went in to a circular dog fight with the f 22 they would losse air speed but the f 22 CTV (controled thrust vectoring) would let the plane turn tighter turns and have a better angle of lock on's. all in all the f-22 has far more agility as well soo all in all f16 vs f22 paf still be at nthe top

LOL are you sure that a f-16 can match upto a F-22 ? I wont be so confident if i were you

 

[blain2]

Hi,

Paks need to learn and understand that there is no oppurtunity to learn and understand when you send your F7pg's against high end aircraft---pakistanis also need to understand to stop arguing in futility about these games---. It has truly become an ego of paks to want to be somebody that they are not. Argument just for the sake of argument is futile.

The americans wanted to test their F22's against the glorified pak pilots in their F 7 pg's just to make sure if there was any iota of a doubt left anywhere---maybe the famed pak pilot can pull a trick or two or a rabbit out of their hats---guess what---there was nothing left in there---all the tricks had been played and accounted for---all the rabbits had been used in the prior acrobats---. Even though the money spent in dispatching the planes may very well have come out from the u s aid---so no big deal---.

Mastan, do you really believe what you have written? There is so much hypothetical content here that I do not know where to start. Since when has this become an issue of Pakistani ego? PAF has been participating at ATLC at Al-Dhafra for the past 3-4 years now. This is the first time that Raptors have showed up. Do you really think that our pilots were there to show a thing or two to the Americans in their Raptors? If you do think so, how did you deduce this? For some reason, you also do not budge in the face of concrete logic. This is not about the ego. Its about getting together and training together. Unlike others, when was the last time you heard someone from the PAF side claim that they bested anyone in such training exercises? They don't do this because they are very professional in the way they go about such exercises.

Secondly, when you show up at such exercises, its the host's training cadre that set up the training program and last I checked, nobody was interested in seeing a F-22 vs. F-7PG sparring match. It does not do anyone any good. Sorties are expensive, you plan to maximize the benefits of learning by conducting Large Force Exercises because you have the benefit of large number of aircraft together. For dissimilar combat, you can come home and do that throughout the many exercises set up or during one-on-one's with other countries. Point being, do not assume the intent of the PAF was to showboat at this exercise. They were at the exercise with the most humble capability. That in itself brings about humility given the PG was in the company of the most modern F-16 in the world, the most modern Mirage 2000 in the world and the only 5th generation aircraft in service today. So khan sahib, lets not assume things.

This excercise was just to put the pak pilots in their place---paks think that they will play one or two tricks with the american forces and they will be at the top of the game---. The only reason the u s does these games is to make sure that it knows how to tackle everyone of them one at a time at their own game---u s does not like any surprises---this game was also to give a CHECK MATE to the paks---who have been strutting a little bit.

It is simply amazing how you assume things to be. Do you think anyone goes to these exercises full-bore? Everyone holds back. The idea is to observe the other side's operations, tactics etc. Every single Air Force comes to such exercises like this with these things in mind. To be very honest, no one even knows if the F-22 flew against the F-7. All we know is that the PG was at the same place as the F-22 and the USAF pilot said that they flew against Pakistanis (well No.7 sqn was also there).

War games are no greco roman wrestling and neither is boxing where a heavy weight can send some one of a lower weight to kingdom come just with one hit. Over here you can't tap three times to let go off.

You train with what you have and war is all about big vs. small.

It is not an excericise of a tame draw---it is a battle amongst testosterone high fighter jocks where the loser will always feel impotent---it is not between the american reds and blues---same army training against each other for a better performance---it is men of one nation pitched against the men of another nation---in maybe a friendly but truly a realistic mock combat.

Really and I was under the impression that professionalism has a part to play in all this testosterone packed melee...

I would think after having gone through approximately 14 such multinational exercises since 04, the PAF would have some idea about what these exercises are about and if it even makes sense to have aircraft such as F-7s there. No?

And it is not DACT this time in real sense---it was an all out by every plane against the F 22.

Again one small part of the exercise. Nobody spends all day and multiple days pitching aircraft from different generations over and over. There are bigger goals set in such exercises which I have mentioned many times by now.

Perhaps a description of ATLF will help:

The goal of ATLC is to train forces in a multinational & large scale exercise environment and raise the interoperability and the combat effectiveness of the participating air forces by developing pilot leadership skills while improving improving tactics, techniques and procedures. ATLC typically lasts about four weeks and consist of large scale exercises and training sorties designed to specifically improve aircrew mission skills. Week three of the four week exercise is typically dedicated to large scale night exercises. So, this is a “routine” event.

There is a lot more to be gained by participation than bragging rights about trying to beat an F-22 with an F-7PG (a match that we do not even know for sure happened).

 

[air marshal]

with all due respect...i am sorry but i think these pics are fake....kinda look photoshopped... maybe i am wrong....

Yes you are wrong. Here is the link:

WAFF | World's Armed Forces Forum: Gorgeous pics from the Iron Eagle 09 exercise in the UAE

 

[UchihaCG]

Yes you are wrong. Here is the link:

WAFF | World's Armed Forces Forum: Gorgeous pics from the Iron Eagle 09 exercise in the UAE

wow, just beautiful pics...

My friend Pakistan always has a trick up there sleev. It is pitted against a military 6 to 7 times its size and is constantly having to prove that it can defend its boarders. When India sent fully armed fighter/bombers to Pakistans gates during this past year they were met with the iron fist of Pakistan. Pakistan was able to scramble its fighters within minutes. They were not even in the air but managed to take off and fend away the intruders. So don't count Pakistan out just yet be patient and lets see what comes out of this at the end of the exercise. I am sure whatever the top guys did they did for a reason.

Since when did India try to "invade" Pakistan?

 

[aboutimeee]

it might have something to do with jordanin f16 and french mirages already beeing there, so the americans probably asked for something different.
however yes it does make us look like a 3rd world airforce.

 

[blain2]

Mastan,






Phir bacchon wali batain?



Blain,

Learn to grow up and talk like an man---like an adult----stop being a pakistani to the end---where men talk---this terminology is not used---it shows immaturity---a lack of experience---a lack of self confidence---a lack of self respect---just when you don't have the ability or the experience to grasp something or don't want to listen or agree---you make personal demeaning comments---.

Listen and learn Blain---you still have to experience real time corporate world---talking big doesnot put you automatically in that position----.

And last but not the least---STOP PATRONIZING ME---you need to learn the decency to get into a discussion or an argument---just because you maynot like my comments, does not give you the right to insult me as a person.

All I said was that what you wrote was fairly immature - "phir bacchon wali baat" means nothing different but I understand that it may have come across as rude and for that, you have my apology.

I think the points I wanted to make I have. Disrespect was not intended and not the point of my rebuttals either. The topic on hand was hijacked into a F-22 vs. PG sort of a thing when the reality is far from it.
Regards