F-10 critics

[Muradk]

Neo, Pakistan has invested the same amount for the J-10 as the JF-17, US $ 750 M.
Since it's a more complexed project, the manufacturing will stay in China.

It must be more probably to help out China in time of their need, or perhaps we invested just to get a share of the profits, or to develop the Chinese WS engine, it could be anything.

Earlier on, we gifted China a fuselage of a crashed F-16, to help develop the J-10, including the cockpit.

what who told you that

 

[echo 1]

I believe the Pakistanis have invested in a good machine, it has problems? Maybe they are just rumours to make the F-10 look weak, I doubt that the F-10 has problems the plane looks like a competitor and one that can take on any advanced fighter plane.

I don't think that is ture. The F-10 I belive is powered by the Al-31 fp which is a thrust vector engin and is supplied by Russia if it were anything less then satisfactory then I am sure that India would not have used the engin for it's MKI.

 

[Interceptor]

I don't think that is ture. The F-10 I belive is powered by the Al-31 fp which is a thrust vector engin and is supplied by Russia if it were anything less then satisfactory then I am sure that India would not have used the engin for it's MKI.

Whats your point?

 

[BATMAN]

You should know that China themself ask Pakistan to give them there US technology so that they can Observe it. I remember I was told that long time ago I believe in 1993-1994 Pakistan allowed the Chinese to look at the F-16 and open it.

What you are saying is that Chinese had a look at F-16, and produced a copy J-10, ten years later...
How do you know that. In news it is described that some help came from Israelis, which also is a speculation and cannot be acertained.

The Al-Khalid is a Tri nation Joint venture, the Babur is a question mark because the Chinese themself dont have replica or a similar system to the Babur. The Fokkers are getting replaced with the P3-C recon planes

What exactly, are you trying to emphasize?

 

[Shehz]

Murad, let's forget who told me that, I could say Zia said that, will that change anything?
And that (F-16 to china) is no secret anylonger, it's there on the web now, really.

Yes, Interceptor is very right, dont dispute him.
J-10 is a very very old project, which ran aground due to lack of funds. The F-16 which we gave the Chinese was from our original batch, General Dynamics, the one which crashed due to the Wild Boar on the runway.

The cockpit we provided was from the newer batch.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/j-10.htm

 

[Interceptor]

What you are saying is that Chinese had a look at F-16, and produced a copy J-10, ten years later...
How do you know that. In news it is described that some help came from Israelis, which also is a speculation and cannot be acertained.

No thats what your saying. Well the Pakistanis gave one of the Obsolete F-16 which was grounded and allowed the Chinese to inspect it and (probably take it apart.)

The F-10 is based on the F-16 but little bit more superior I say this because this is what the Israeli Lavi was originaly for.

Umm Though it is a speculation the Israelis gave the Chinese the Lavi designs and the J-10 has incorperated these designs. There is evidence if you look at the Lavi and the F-10 which both look and have similar designs. Therefore, many military analyst agree that F-10 has benefited from the Israeli Lavi.

"Development of the J-10 by 611 Aircraft Designed Institute officially began in October 1986 in response to the PLAAFs demand for a new-generation fighter which could counter the fourth-generation fighters such as MiG-29 and Su-27 then being introduced by the Soviet Union. It was widely speculated that during its early years the J-10 development had benefited from the cancelled Israeli Aerospace Industry (IAI) Lavi lightweight fighter, though the allegation was strongly denied by the people involved in the J-10 project. In the 1990s, Russia also provided key assistance to the J-10 programme by providing its Lyulka-Saturn AL-31F turbofan engine as a replacement for the incapable Chinese indigenous WS-10 turbofan."

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/j10.asp

What exactly, are you trying to emphasize?

I am trying to high light that these ventures are normal and countries help each other to gain in the fields of technolody.

 

[Interceptor]

Murad, let's forget who told me that, I could say Zia said that, will that change anything?
And that (F-16 to china) is no secret anylonger, it's there on the web now, really.

Yes, Interceptor is very right, dont dispute him.
J-10 is a very very old project, which ran aground due to lack of funds. The F-16 which we gave the Chinese was from our original batch, General Dynamics, the one which crashed due to the Wild Boar on the runway.

The cockpit we provided was from the newer batch.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/j-10.htm

I didn't read this post.

There was the one that was grounded I thought that is the one the Chinese looked at.

 

[Shehz]

We let them have the cockpit from the grounded one, as we needed the remaining fuselage for parts. The one which crashed, well who cares if a post mortem is performed on it.

We only kept it a secret, just so not to offend the US.
But then came the pressler ammendments, and we needed some strike force, the idea of toss bombing was improvised, on the F-16's.

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/pakistan/aircraft/index.html

 

[Neo]

Lets not speculate what technology Pakistan may or may not have provided to China, the fact is that J-10 is based on the Lavi which again is an improved Israeli version of the F-16. The Lavi is believed to be superior to PAF's block 15 F-16A/B. it doesn't make sense that China would be acquiring lessor technology from Pakistan when she has access to much improved design.

The fuselage btw had to be redesigned for the Saturn AL-31FN and Russians were more than happy to assist.

 

[Neo]

Don't believe everything you read on international fora, much of it is biased and inaccurate and meant to hurt our image.

Transfer of F-16 technology to China, if there ever was any, would have been arranged by ISI without the world knowing it.

There's so much you don't know and I'm not at liberty to discuss it in the open.

 

[Shehz]

Neo, the F-16 was provided not to clone anything, but to study it, and it was way before the Israelis stepped in bro. J-10 has evolved a lot from the original drawing board, since then.

 

[Interceptor]

I have to agree with Shehz that was the main point of the Chinese to get as much tech that they can study and design there fighter plane from.

 

[Neo]

Jane reports that the F-10 jet engine has been developed and is under testing therfore they can have problems. However, Pakistan still went for the russsian engine, they should have invested in the project it would only have benefited Pakistan.

It remains to be seen if Russia agrees to supply the AL-31FN engine to Pakistan, nothing's been approved yet but it will certainly be a good choice.

Chinese WS-10 is believed to be underpowerd and generates 115kN against its Russian counterparts 125kN. Al-31FN has matured with 2D TVC.

 

[Shehz]

That is Murad and Munir's area of expertise, no comments!

 

[BATMAN]

No thats what your saying. Well the Pakistanis gave one of the Obsolete F-16 which was grounded and allowed the Chinese to inspect it and (probably take it apart.)

Are you sure..

The F-10 is based on the F-16 but little bit more superior I say this because this is what the Israeli Lavi was originaly for.

Umm Though it is a speculation the Israelis gave the Chinese the Lavi designs and the J-10 has incorperated these designs. There is evidence if you look at the Lavi and the F-10 which both look and have similar designs. Therefore, many military analyst agree that F-10 has benefited from the Israeli Lavi.

This supports the theory that J-10 has no influence of F-16 on its design.

incapable Chinese indigenous WS-10 turbofan."

Now, what the hell does that suppose to mean.

Any way, I have same point of view as Neo. I don't consider it wise to endorse rumors.