EXCLUSIVE PICS MKI LEAVING FOR FRANCE

[KEETARP]

Thnks Sancho ,
Remember Seeing CFT's of SG 2 months back in news , only thing that came to my mind was SE = SG

I checked it back today

 

[Abingdonboy]

Some More Guyz..... Jai Ho.

I really like how nowadays the Indian armed forces have started wearing the Tricolour on their uniforms, it looks really good.
Alos does anyone know if these SU-30mkis would be newly inducted or part of the older fleet?

 

[blain2]

As far as I know, all commonwealth armed forces, when they are overseas, wear their national colours. This was something that both the Indian and Pakistani sides inherited from the British.

 

[Abingdonboy]

As far as I know, all commonwealth armed forces, when they are overseas, wear their national colours. This was something that both the Indian and Pakistani sides inherited from the British.

Maybe you are correct but I don't remember seeing this until recently, it was usually the preserve of the patriotic Americans with their large backwards flag on their right arm.

 

[anathema]

See what i wrote
Saying satisfying your needs just tells me You have no idea of how DACT works . You think IAF is taking such large Air-men and Su30+Force multipliers to practice against F16 .

Thanks for the link however
And what has DACT got to do with this ? Excercises against F16 also qualifies for DACT and so does SE. Keeping that in mind why would IAF pass an oppurtunity to excercise against F16 ? And why should we be dissappointed that SE is not coming for excercises. What are the golden advantages that we would have if SE were to participate instead of F16 ?

And did i say anything about the large crew of IAF ? They are going for excercises with Rafale,Mirage and added bonus F16 - So how does this even come into picture.

If its for the sake of doing excercises with a new plane (old wine in new bottle) Or if its for the sake of saying that we have done excercises against SE then maybe yeah but since the immdiate threat in subcontinent is from F16 , it is reasonable that excercises are against F16. IMHO advantages of excercises with F16 outweigh those with F15 SE purely on the fact that more the training more we learn about neighbours aircraft.

 

[ptldM3]

Does anyone have any idea what these exercises will cover? WVR combat, BVR combat, a2g missions, will each group operate independently or will coalation teams be formed?

In any case, i'm eager to here to results from all sides.

 

[Kompromat]

Amazing Pictures , i personally like Flankers big time !

I hope the boys do good in france.. Good luck.

 

[Kompromat]

LT.PRATEEK

Are you aware that RSAF F-16's Block 52+ have similar upgrades to F-16I Sufa ?

*sorry for off topic post

 

[KEETARP]

Thanks for the link however
And what has DACT got to do with this ? Excercises against F16 also qualifies for DACT and so does SE. Keeping that in mind why would IAF pass an oppurtunity to excercise against F16 ? And why should we be dissappointed that SE is not coming for excercises. What are the golden advantages that we would have if SE were to participate instead of F16 ?

And did i say anything about the large crew of IAF ? They are going for excercises with Rafale,Mirage and added bonus F16 - So how does this even come into picture.

If its for the sake of doing excercises with a new plane (old wine in new bottle) Or if its for the sake of saying that we have done excercises against SE then maybe yeah but since the immdiate threat in subcontinent is from F16 , it is reasonable that excercises are against F16. IMHO advantages of excercises with F16 outweigh those with F15 SE purely on the fact that more the training more we learn about neighbours aircraft.

See , you have still not gone thru article and refrences , why i posted them .You think flying with F16 and you will get to learn about aircraft and its limitations

There is big mis-conception in most of forum members how DACT works and what are its prime role + objectives.

Let me make a last try to insert something

DACT is not just an everyday exercise its a different game all together played with new set of Balls ,

When planning a DACT exercise, planners typically will build an Offensive Counterair (OCA) strike package and Defensive Counterair (DCA) package with appropriate aircraft.
Besides designating types of aircraft and missions, planners will also draw up objectives for the exercise.
These objectives can be very specific or quite broad depending on the situation.
A broad objective may be stated as building trust between countries or familiarize pilots with other air forces.
More specific objectives may be effectively integrate air forces for lane defense.

In order to accomplish these objectives, rules of engagement (ROE) will also be set.

ROE consist of
weapons load,weapons limitation ,range
identification criteria,
maneuvering limitations,
tactics restrictions,
AOA, ALtitude of engagement,speed range of flying
and just about anything else you can think of.
ROE can be pretty liberal or very restrictive, depending on the objectives, experience level of the pilots, or number and type of aircraft involved

Make no doubt the ROE is pretty strict and you cant show off or act bad-guy , either u adhere with them or u are history . Pilots have been send home breaking ROE ,
If the objective is to build trust between nations, you can bet your *** that the rules are going to be damn restrictive to try to ensure there will be no accidents/dangerous or stupid stunts that would embarrass one side or the other or result in needless loss of life.

When participating in an international exercise, both sides are probably going to hold some information back. This is not a you show me yours, I'll show you mine' game.
In many cases, the shot data/weapons performance is classified, and not releasable to those on the other side.
While debriefing an engagement either side ignores to say what really happened? Nobody is going to walk into the debrief and say I shot that guy at this time and this range with this missile, because they are basically giving away their capabilities.
As you can see, the results of these exercises (especially those released to the public) are quite likely not accurate. And, for one side or the other to claim victory in one of these exercises is either dishonest or just plain ignorance.

Most of the learning experience occurs on the ground, not in the air. The evolution from Air Tasking Order to Mission Planning/C3I/Asset Coordination to Aircraft Generation is where air battles are won or lost.
The mechanics of flying airplanes and shooting off ordnance is just minor part of it.
One valuable part of the exercise is simply watching how the other side operates, what kind of tactics they use (they may have been "modified" along with the weapons), how they talk on the radio, etc.
^See why i posted about large technicians numbers ?????


Take this exercise for example - It is a classified data no one would ever come to know . I am just giving an hypothetical scenario
Suppose your offensive package consists of Su30 as strike package and F16 as escort with Red-Team against Blue Team of Rafale and Mirages who act as defence forces .
Next day Mirages will act as Strike and Su30 as escort against Rafale + F16

IF the ROE and type of formations end up anything , it may just end up IAF would never fly against F16

What do you think IAF will come to know about - F16 Jet or working with their counterparts . Take your pick ???

I gave an example of F15 bcoz atleast when you operate with ACT (Air-combat training) between similar air-crafts su30 and F15
-you will learn how other Force operates their heavy fighter
-how they keep twin engine maintenance in foreign land
-how they launch more aircrafts in one minute
-How Engineers manage to get low-maintenece cost wrt to Russian jets in comparison with Heavy class .
-etc etc etc etc
-List is long , there is much more then what i can describe here .

If you think DACT is to test how good other air-craft is , i cant help anymore . DACT originated as US concept to ease NATO and US operations .

Apart from which I stated , every aircraft has different tactics and type of role they give to a jet .
Pakistan Air-Force is very active and professional in exercises with USAF,NATO,ARAB,TURKS etc they will have different role to this jet than Singapore and different air combat tactics , perhaps different BVR engagement and AWACS + Data-link use.
What can you know about F16 when you have almost ROE specified to a level to hide real data , its better to learn about Professionalism than Jet . This is what DACT is meant to do .........

Lastly to drive home a point i am quoting
USAF Pilot MIKE TONGUE (He is now retired with more than 3,300 hours flight time in F-15s and F-16s)

My greatest training lesson!
This truly was the greatest training lesson in my career as a USAF aviator and F-16 pilot. We had the chance to see the Mig-29 up close and meet the pilots who trained in those lethal machines.
They(Bulgaria Air Force) welcomed us into their squadron and country like lost brothers. In some ways they was better prepared than we where. They had studied our tactics, read our articles and knew the different Blocks of F-16 and what the unique capabilities that followed them.
They even quoted some of our article, and the tactics in them.

The F-16s we operate have been used to simulate Mig-29 in our aggressor units back home for some time now.
But i have to tell you, this is not the same as clashing with the real deal!

But i'm getting ahead of my self here..

The DACT mission we flew with and against the NATO brothers in-arms of the BuAF were set to compare our training doctrine with theirs.
The Bulgarian Air Force has a proud tradision going way back to 1912.
We were soon given them academics on how we fight western style within visual range manoeuvring.And they were doing the very same for us,
passing along their own techniques developed indipendently in thir Air Force,
and some from being former members of the Soviets circle of friends flying their equipment.

Mig-29 BFM
Back home the way we did train ourself is first basic flight, second is BFM or basic fighters manoeuvres, then Tactical Intercept TI; using the radar to intercept with missiles or close to visual conditions, then the ACT Aerial Tactical Training which pretty much is a mix of TI and BFM.
The method taught in Bulgaria are in different orders..
They do the same first Basic training.
But then they go on to Tactical Intercepts, and eventually to the BFM.
We tried both with the Bulgarian Air force but i'm stick with the BFM in this article

Rest is about F16 vs Mig29 , i wont post that . But anytime if you wana read it pick up AFM magazine.

See US had Mig29 experience before on Polish still they learned about what ???- Working of Bulgarian's not MIg29 itself

For rest , ask some PAF retired ace pilots on this forum , or Gambit who is retired pilot himself . He will tell you exactly how DACT and multinational exercise works .

 

[KEETARP]

Does anyone have any idea what these exercises will cover? WVR combat, BVR combat, a2g missions, will each group operate independently or will coalation teams be formed?
In any case, i'm eager to here to results from all sides.

Your first line is fine - No one would know its different from Red-Flag Aggresor details vs others ,

Last line about results - See you would never know , its only fanbyoz or childish comments from Journos that come out which are far from truth .

LT.PRATEEK

Are you aware that RSAF F-16's Block 52+ have similar upgrades to F-16I Sufa ?

Thanks BlackBlood
I wasn't aware of that ,
I have read a lot about your posting on F16 . Its damn impressive , you know quite a lot about vipers , infact more what some of those Fanbyoz on F16.net i have come across .

 

[Kompromat]

Thanks BlackBlood
I wasn't aware of that ,
I have read a lot about your posting on F16 . Its damn impressive , you know quite a lot about vipers , infact more what some of those Fanbyoz on F16.net i have come across .

You are welcome:

Here is an example to support my claim.

RSAF Block 52+

IAF F-16I Sufa.

PAF F-16 Block 52+

You can see the difference.

 

[harrymohan]

One interesting question, what route they take to reach France, is it acceptable to fly fighter planes over other countries to reach France? I know Pak won't allow?

Any answer for my query??

 

[anathema]

There is big mis-conception in most of forum members how DACT works and what are its prime role + objectives.

Let me make a last try to insert something

DACT is not just an everyday exercise its a different game all together played with new set of Balls ,

Prateek, The question was never about DACT itself. I have read and re-read the articles that you posted. The question is about why you feel DACT involving a SU 30 and F 15SE is better than DACT between a SU 30 and F16 !!!! The question was never about DACT and quite frankly i dont know why you are emphsing about DACT.

A Su 30 Vs Mirage is a DACT.
A SU 30 VS F15SE is a DACT.
A SU 30 Vs F16 is also a DACT. So what makes F15 SE special ? What will be more favourable in terms of learning ? DACT involving Su30 and F16 OR Su30 and F15 ? You never bothered to answer this despite me repeatedly asking you , leading me to believe that its a fanboy wish !!! If thats the case then say it , else give me the logic.

When planning a DACT exercise, planners typically will build an Offensive Counterair (OCA) strike package and Defensive Counterair (DCA) package with appropriate aircraft.
Besides designating types of aircraft and missions, planners will also draw up objectives for the exercise.
These objectives can be very specific or quite broad depending on the situation.
A broad objective may be stated as building trust between countries or familiarize pilots with other air forces.
More specific objectives may be effectively integrate air forces for lane defense.

True ... And how does F15SE or F16 impact above ? Answer zilch !!

In order to accomplish these objectives, rules of engagement (ROE) will also be set.

ROE consist of
weapons load,weapons limitation ,range
identification criteria,
maneuvering limitations,
tactics restrictions,
AOA, ALtitude of engagement,speed range of flying
and just about anything else you can think of.
ROE can be pretty liberal or very restrictive, depending on the objectives, experience level of the pilots, or number and type of aircraft involved

Make no doubt the ROE is pretty strict and you cant show off or act bad-guy , either u adhere with them or u are history . Pilots have been send home breaking ROE ,
If the objective is to build trust between nations, you can bet your *** that the rules are going to be damn restrictive to try to ensure there will be no accidents/dangerous or stupid stunts that would embarrass one side or the other or result in needless loss of life.

And How Does F15SE help us in training in the above cause rather than just training against another aircraft. Atleast F16 does provide us a chance to see the plane in action , its agility , handling , etc.
Keep in mind that we will not be going against F15se in near future.

When participating in an international exercise, both sides are probably going to hold some information back. This is not a you show me yours, I'll show you mine' game.
In many cases, the shot data/weapons performance is classified, and not releasable to those on the other side.

True...This would be true with F15 as well as F16 ? So what are the advantages ?

While debriefing an engagement either side ignores to say what really happened? Nobody is going to walk into the debrief and say I shot that guy at this time and this range with this missile, because they are basically giving away their capabilities.
As you can see, the results of these exercises (especially those released to the public) are quite likely not accurate. And, for one side or the other to claim victory in one of these exercises is either dishonest or just plain ignorance.

Heard of Col Fornoff ( i hope the spell is right). His de brief about Su30 performance raised quite a ruckus. However the point is there will be a unofficial debrief amongst team as to how they performed against other AF's or what was special in that plane that outdid us OR what were the tactics that outdid us. Its always a combination of PLane and tactics and in this case flying which would be more beneficial , Flying against F15SE from Singapore AF which represents no near threat OR flying against F16 ? The answer is right there.

Most of the learning experience occurs on the ground, not in the air. The evolution from Air Tasking Order to Mission Planning/C3I/Asset Coordination to Aircraft Generation is where air battles are won or lost.
The mechanics of flying airplanes and shooting off ordnance is just minor part of it.
One valuable part of the exercise is simply watching how the other side operates, what kind of tactics they use (they may have been "modified" along with the weapons), how they talk on the radio, etc.
^See why i posted about large technicians numbers ?????

True ...and i dont understand what the hell number of technicians or the way they talk on radio , etc has got to do with type of Aircraft. All this time i am of the opinion that practicing against F16 is always better.

Take this exercise for example - It is a classified data no one would ever come to know . I am just giving an hypothetical scenario
Suppose your offensive package consists of Su30 as strike package and F16 as escort with Red-Team against Blue Team of Rafale and Mirages who act as defence forces .
Next day Mirages will act as Strike and Su30 as escort against Rafale + F16

IF the ROE and type of formations end up anything , it may just end up IAF would never fly against F16

True but then same holds good for F15SE. It would be a case oppurtunity missed, i dont see what it has to do with our current discussion.

What do you think IAF will come to know about - F16 Jet or working with their counterparts . Take your pick ???

The question should be what will IAF come to know MORE about F16 the jet or the tactics ?
Answer is both.And this is precisely my opinion. Afterall if we are not learning whatever little about the other jet then why send them across oceans , might as well send pilots on training leactures to understand how other AF's operate.

I gave an example of F15 bcoz atleast when you operate with ACT (Air-combat training) between similar air-crafts su30 and F15

The whole excercise is meant to be a ACT between dissimilar aricrafts ? So it would be a moot point . Anyways how will it benefit IAF ? Will we learn how to operate similar aircrafts ? Is that it ? What is Rafale for in that case ? It is similar to Su 30 in terms of Role.

-you will learn how other Force operates their heavy fighter
-how they keep twin engine maintenance in foreign land
-how they launch more aircrafts in one minute
-How Engineers manage to get low-maintenece cost wrt to Russian jets in comparison with Heavy class .
-etc etc etc etc
-List is long , there is much more then what i can describe here .

The advantages that you have shown is strawman and is more so considering that F16 is in the runing for MMRCA. If anything IAF wants to learn then it would be a maintenance , life cycle costs , spares , etc about F16 AND not ABOUT F15SE. And Pilots do talk amongst themselves and opinion does get shared.

If they want to learn operational aspects about twin enginned aircraft - then they can learn it from Rafale as well.

If you think DACT is to test how good other air-craft is , i cant help anymore . DACT originated as US concept to ease NATO and US
operations .

I never said DACT is about comparing two aircrafts. Thats a absurd claim. However DACT does involve observing and understanding the other aircraft even if it is done through candid means.

Apart from which I stated , every aircraft has different tactics and type of role they give to a jet .
Pakistan Air-Force is very active and professional in exercises with USAF,NATO,ARAB,TURKS etc they will have different role to this jet than Singapore and different air combat tactics , perhaps different BVR engagement and AWACS + Data-link use.
What can you know about F16 when you have almost ROE specified to a level to hide real data , its better to learn about Professionalism than Jet . This is what DACT is meant to do .........

And how will F15 SE help this cause ????? And how about learning both ......understanding the professionalism as well as the JET (even if its little -- Knowledge is power and a little knowledge might be the difference between a person being shot in the head or a bullet missing its target) ......
Is my Argument ringing any bells ????????

Lastly to drive home a point i am quoting
USAF Pilot MIKE TONGUE (He is now retired with more than 3,300 hours flight time in F-15s and F-16s)

EVER wondered why Mike T was so appreciative of DACT training between US AF F16 and Mig 29. Because Mig 29 was the immediate threat !!!!!!!!!!! And that is the whole point. Why practice against F15SE when you can practice against F16. If its a FANBOY wish then well i would hope IAF goes against Raptor.

Rest is about F16 vs Mig29 , i wont post that . But anytime if you wana read it pick up AFM magazine.

See US had Mig29 experience before on Polish still they learned about what ???- Working of Bulgarian's not MIg29 itself

Thank you...I have read about this...Also please read similar training between USAF F16 and Mig 29 from German Luftwaffe. ..It helps my point that Aircraft is definetly considered during such training.

Also USAF brought in SU27 for DACT training long time back --- They are one heck of AF but goes to show its always better to train against Aircraft which you consider immediate threat...Fantasies and wishes can be done anytime latter when there is no choice !!!!

 

[anathema]

Any answer for my query??

Prior permission is sought and information about the route is shared across all the countries over which IAF will be flying !! Also consider in mind that majority of the flying time would be over oceans !!

Pakistan , hell no!! Next thing we know is SAM's screaming their way up!!

 

[Haanzo]

It could simply be because of sparing reasons.

can you elaborate please