Ex-PTI members join here

[PakPrinciples]

now my eyes arer on Qadri , his tehreek is given blood , and now its time to move on ....

Now correct me if I'm wrong but the one thing I don't like about Qadri is that he's not a very good team player.

From what I recall Imran tried to form a coalition with the PAT but Qadri turned him down and only agreed after the brutal Model Town murders which lead him to join Imran in the Azadi March.

What is the point in risking the lives of thousands of supporters, if you don't have the balls to stay in the protest for more than 2 days.

The PML-N is truly horrendous if people actually acknowledge that these protestors lives are in danger. These are unarmed protestors, our brothers and sisters, and the murder or assault of our own isn't acceptable.

Everyone participating in that protest is there of their own free will not by coercion. They are risking their lives for the betterment of their nation and people and I see them as patriots.

Regardless of whether a Pakistani agrees or disagrees with the protests we need to ensure that our people, those protestors, are protected. Property can always be replaced but our peoples lives can't.

As for Imran Khan I wasn't aware that he ever left the protests. However, there may be times when he'll need to be rushed out particularly in light of what happened in Model Town.

Why is it that the military dictatorship of President Pervez Musharraf received as much American and other foreign aid as the Government of President Asif Ali Zardari and the Government of Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif is receiving, yet the latter two cannot make any economic improvements without taking tens of billions of dollars in loans?

Generally I find it is because:

1. The Army is far less corrupt than political parties
2. The Army is made up of men/women who are willing to bleed and die for the nation so the organization as a whole, though may not apply to all individuals, are more committed to the country and its future
   
3. Democracy brings bureaucracy that hampers development
4. Democracy brings into power different political parties which have different visions and with that can change laws to suit their own desires which brings about instability and insecurity whereas the military generally has a structured approach to doing anything.

The PML-N is employing the exact same failed neoliberal economic policies employed by the PPP and initially started by Musharraf.

Let me begin by stating that "protectionism makes you rich"
George Monbiot: One thing is clear from the history of trade: protectionism makes you rich | Comment is free | The Guardian

Musharraf virtually eliminated import barriers (i.e. tarrifs/duties), a major source of tax revenue pre-1999 coup that also protected Pakistan's domestic industries:

Applied Tarrif Rate (simple mean) % of GDP

This took Pakistan from a country with a relatively stable balance of trade since our independence in '47 to one with huge growing year on year trade deficits post-1999 (which got really bad specifically after 2007 when the PPP took over):

This policy has continued under the PPP government which went ahead with the FTA (free trade agreement) with China which resulted in our trade deficit with them increasing by 50% since it was implemented in 2007 and now the PML-N is pushing forward an NDMA/MFN with India which will fail just as badly if not worse further ruining our economy all while supporting a hostile nation.

Furthermore, this policy tanked the countries tax to GDP ratio from a high of 13.8% in '96 (12.8% in '99) to the sub 10% levels they are now.

This has resulted in the government having lost billions of dollars in tax revenue since '99 that could have been put towards crucial development projects. Had Musharraf left import barriers in place and instead focused on increasing compliance with the countries tax laws (ex. personal income tax) raising the tax to GDP ratio to 18% instead of lowering it to 10% and that policy had continued until now (i.e. through the PPP and PML-N governments) the country would have over $160 billion USD in additional revenue for development/industrialization and if spent correctly would easily have saved the country tens of billions in lost foreign exchange (which could have also been re-invested into increased industrialization). We could easily have grown well over 12% a year and frankly should have left India in the dust by now.

Protectionist policies have been employed by virtually all of the world's most successful economies (ex. US, Britain, Germany, S. Korea, etc...) during their early stages of development.

To give an example let's look at S. Korea...

Ha-Joon Chang, one of the world's foremost development economists, was born in '53 and grew up in South Korea as it emerged out of poverty so he knows better than anyone how it developed into the economy it is today and has an on the ground perspective others do not. South Korea was so protectionist they even taught school children to report anyone who was even seen smoking foreign cigarettes:

"The country’s obsession with economic development was fully reflected in our education. We learned that it was our patriotic duty to report anyone seen smoking foreign cigarettes. The country needed to use every bit of the foreign exchange earned from its exports in order to import machines and other
inputs to develop better industries."
(Bad Samaritans: The Myth of Free Trade and the Secret History of Capitalism, 2007, [pg. xiv])
​

South Korea developed under strict import bans/quotas, tariffs and duties to protect local industries during their initial years of development and prevent the loss of the foreign exchange they earned through exports which they put almost exclusively towards industrialization (ex. buying capital equipment) not amenities like vegetable oil, tea, clothing, etc... Ha-Joon Chang even describes stories of US military MRI's, which American soldiers considered trash, being regarded a delicacy to South Koreans and even horded by Korean officers to give as gifts because of how poor quality their food was in the 50s and 60s.

Here is a chart of South Korea’s simple mean tariff rate as a % of all manufactured goods (again only going back to the very late 80s since that's all the information South Korea ever shared with the World Bank). Had information been available going back to the 60s and 70s you'd have seen the mean tariff rate been even higher and that doesn't even take into account the fact they had strict import quota's and bans.

Tariff rates (i.e. import barriers) decreased over time as the country continued to industrialize but, as was the case with a host of the words most developed economies, they were initially very high to protect local industries from foreign competition.

In fact South Korea is actually increasing tariffs on primary products (i.e. primarily agricultural) which are the highest amongst the G-20 countries (India and Brazil come in second and third respectively):

Why?

It's most likely due to South Korea's agricultural productivity having significantly increased and with a declining population they're protecting their own agricultural sector from foreign competition not just to make themselves more self sufficient but also to avoid losing valuable foreign exchange:

I've noticed this crazy fixation among some Pakistanis, even politicians, on FDI (foreign direct investment) but as I've stated in many posts on PDF none of the worlds most developed economies depended on it for development particularly considering its not a stable source of development revenue. In the case of South Korea FDI has been virtually non-existent.

To provide some visuals here is a chart of FDI inflows (i.e. we aren't taking into account outflows) as a % of GDP for South Korea (this is even less than what has been going to China and S. Korea is far richer on a per capita basis):

South Korea like virtually every successful economy today grew by investing in itself and strictly controlling imports limiting them, as much as possible, to solely bringing in capital equipment to advance their own industries (not personal consumption items and other luxuries). These countries did not develop on FDI

Now here is a chart of S. Korea's gross fixed capital formation (i.e. the amount of money a country spends on land improvements like ditches and drains; construction of roads, railways that aid in trade; commercial and industrial buildings as well as plants, machinery, and equipment purchases; infrastructure like hospitals, schools and residential housing that improves a peoples standard of living, etc...)

What you'll notice is that the FDI inflows (again we're not taking into consideration outflows) reached its peak in '99 at about 2% of GDP which accounted for only about 7.5% of total gross capital formation in South Korea while the rest (92.5%) was sourced domestically from within the country itself.

Investment capital is almost completely sourced internally and comes from both domestic industry (whose profits increase with import barriers and through exports) and from government led investment using tax/non-tax revenues.

I can link you or anyone else who has bothered to keep reading up to this point a series of posts I've made on this topic which can give you a lot more information that also covers Pakistan's tax policies if you're interested.

 

[PakPrinciples]

I don't usually share blog posts because they always lead to arguments but I do believe this post covers the topic beautifully, a number of comparisons are just too well written to be overlooked:

Why I am no longer an Insafian | Life as a Pakistani

But after he announced civil disobedience and steps that clearly leads towards anarchy, I fail to see the reason why we must stand besides this idiot who for his personal sake is willing to destroy the country

I read the blog post and I agree with the author on the point regarding the need for the PTI to transform KP and make it a model for the rest of Pakistan to follow but we also need to understand that they are limited in what they can do since they don't actually have a majority in KP.

With regards to local perception in KP the newest public opinion poll conducted within the province by the Herald actually shows that the people feel Imran made good on his promises of dealing with corruption and improving both healthcare and education which were key issues he was running his campaign on so from that angle he's a success. What should be noted is that for corruption, healthcare and education 60% of respondents agree it's been handed effectively in KP but less than 30% agree that its been handled effectively in Punjab.

^ - Funniest part of the poll are the views from Sindh where the top response was that the provincial government has handled absolutely nothing effectively.

I also disagree with a lot of what the blogger wrote...

With regards to his comments about "street power" let's rewind back a little to after Musharraf won the countries 2007 elections where the constitution didn't stop Nawaz Shariff, Benazir Bhutto, etc... taking to the streets with his hordes demanding Musharraf step down. What I'd like to ask is why was Nawaz and the PML-N allowed to challenge an elected president (remember he gave up his title as COAS so he was a civilian) but the PTI, PAT, etc... aren't now?

With regards to his comment about the PTI's blockade of NATO transit let's get real and realize that our leaders keeping Pakistan involved in the US' war of terror and occupation of Afghanistan is what got Pakistan into the mess to begin with.

This war is similar to the "war on drugs" the US has been fighting since the 70s which has miserably failed to the point the US and most of Latin America are simply thinking of quitting. Like Pakistan Mexico's participation in the US' "war on drugs" over the 6 years former Pres. Calderon was in office (2006-2012) resulted in deaths of 120,000 people within the country and has turned Mexico, a nation that produces little to no narcotics, into a war zone.
Fueled by War on Drugs, Mexican Death Toll Could Exceed 120,000 As Calderon Ends Six-Year Reign

Interestingly enough the US' occupation of Afghanistan and the subsequent government they've helped setup has turned Afghanistan from a nation that virtually eliminated the drug trade under the Taliban into one where it flourishes fueling addiction and crime within our country:

Virtually anyone with any common sense knew Pakistan would be engulfed by conflict particularly in light of massive domestic opposition to the war in Afghanistan and because in any war transit routes are targeted.

PTI has been trying to save Pakistan from the fate of economic instability and war.
​

With regards to the bloggers opposition to Imran talking with the TTP I don't see how this is a bad thing or any different from what the PPP and PML-N have continued to do? When successive civilian governments continue to deal with the US in light of the fact that they murdered 24 of our soldiers and injured 13 (i.e. Salala attack), continue to violate our sovereignty, murder and kidnap our civilians (ex. Aafia Sidiqqui) and flood our nation with their spies (ex. R. Davis and J. Coxx) all while completely ignoring the feelings of the vast majority of the Pakistani public, particularly the victims of these horrendous crimes and breaches of trust, why shouldn't the PTI attempt to end war within our own borders through dialogue? Even the US is looking to engage in talks with the TTA (a separate entity from the TTP in Pakistan). I recall statements made by Col. (decd.) Imam and Lt. Gen. (retd.) Hamid Gul a few years back that the TTP is largely made up of disgruntled Pakistani tribesmen that simply feel abandoned by their country (many of whom are also being deceived by Indian and Afghan agents and saboteurs) and I seriously believe this is the case.

The issue is that they're immature, weak and ill-organized. A corrupt and competent leader is so much better than an idealistic weak one. He simply won't be able to run the country. He can't even handle KPK. He'll run Pakistan to the ground.

I am Done with This Moron .

Of all the political parties the PTI, from what I've read in terms of economic and social policies or seen practiced, is the best assuming they haven't been changed from the last elections.

The PML-N is employing the same failed neoliberal economic policies of the PPP, has basically kept us in the US' war in Afghanistan like the PPP did and hasn't even employed social policies that would actually increase pride, awareness of our culture and unity. From what I've seen, read and heard since the 90s none of the mainstream political parties (whether its the MQM, ANP, PPP or PML-N) are going to bring about anything but poverty, civil unrest, war, etc...

What I've found is that all of the old mainstream political parties make these promises but never actually describe how they'd fulfill them and since most people, this is true of many countries around the world, don't have an understanding of economics, history, etc... they'd have no idea how they'd do it either so they'll fall for those promises and then civil unrest ensues when their expectations aren't met. This was particularly true when people like Nawaz or Benazir were leading their supporters into the street protesting against Musharraf or when the PPP and PML-N were running in the last two elections.

Based on what was published and what I heard in the last elections the PTI's energy policy was great and unlike the PPP or PML-N which concentrate on importing expensive foreign LNG and crude (ex. from Iran or Qatar) PTI's Imran Khan and Asad Umar (former Engro CEO who actually has experience and an understanding of this matter) were literally the only ones who spelled out exactly how they'd accomplish what they were setting out to do (i.e. end the energy crisis) particularly by utilizing our own massive sources of fuel (ex. unconventional natural gas, lignite and shale oil). PTI's social policies such as mandatory teaching in Urdu for all subjects, making Islamic education and passing it mandatory for all students, etc... are all brilliant and would have a major impact on bettering social harmony, increasing pride and awareness of our own culture and preventing the influencing of our peoples through deceptive means far more difficult if not impossible.

 

[Armstrong]

I still believe he is a much better alternative than NS or Zardari, but IK's immaturity is just astonishing. Instead of focusing here, he should have put all his energies into fixing KPK. It is going to be very hard for him to make a comeback from this debacle, i don't know what he was thinking. Where are all the saner voices in PTI? IK overplayed his hand in this case and it blew up in his face unfortunately.

Thats true; I'd still vote for him if Elections were to be held today but I don't think I'd be dragging my entire family & most in my extended family to the polling stations myself to vote for PTI like I did in these previous elections.

 

[Psycho Pakistani]

I was once well wisher (not supporter or voter) of IK before I discovered that he was launched by establishment to dent PMLN political constituency of punjab while completely ignoring sindh and balochistan. The reason for my support to IK before 2012 also included his anti-status quo agenda.

I was well wisher of IK before 30th october jalsa of 2011 and became anti-IK after I smelled establishments dirty game behind sudden unexpected launch of IK in punjab and kpk and inclusion of seasoned "lotas" in PTI. Over the years I have become anti-establishment I hate the lavish life styles of army generals and their mistreatment of pakistani nation in the last 68 years, now there is no way back for me. The only reason why I support PMLN is because it is the only party at the moment which is truly capable of taming our rogue establishment and bringing them back to their senses so that they stop poking their nose in the political affairs of the country.

 

[Fahad Khan 2]

It's a matter of egg coming from the chicken and coming coming from the eggs

If you kill the chicken and break all the eggs, you are not going to go forward. That is what I call anarchy

Why buy the eggs from outside once again when you are already have some eggs at home, not enough perhaps but still... You have a democratic institutions in place, make reforms rather than bursting all of them once again

That is apparently the ultimate desire of Imran Khan with the way he is giving speeches

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=822018084507280

I was once well wisher (not supporter or voter) of IK before I discovered that he was launched by establishment to dent PMLN political constituency of punjab while completely ignoring sindh and balochistan. The reason for my support to IK before 2012 also included his anti-status quo agenda.

I was well wisher of IK before 30th october jalsa of 2011 and became anti-IK after I smelled establishments dirty game behind sudden unexpected launch of IK in punjab and kpk and inclusion of seasoned "lotas" in PTI. Over the years I have become anti-establishment I hate the lavish life styles of army generals and their mistreatment of pakistani nation in the last 68 years, now there is no way back for me. The only reason why I support PMLN is because it is the only party at the moment which is truly capable of taming our rogue establishment and bringing them back to their senses so that they stop poking their nose in the political affairs of the country.

But 2013 election was also drama from Sindh to KPK what about that.....

 

[Psycho Pakistani]

At first, I could not understand the inclusion of the option in the poll that says something like "I am not pakistani" and on top of that there are 8 people who even voted for this option, then I realized that it was kind of a trap for few indians and they happily fell into it

 

[Jzaib]

Flawed poll .. view the result most of them are PMLN votes any way ...
yes imran khan make some political mistakes and march was miss managed ... so what shit happens

 

[batmannow]

I was once well wisher (not supporter or voter) of IK before I discovered that he was launched by establishment to dent PMLN political constituency of punjab while completely ignoring sindh and balochistan. The reason for my support to IK before 2012 also included his anti-status quo agenda.

I was well wisher of IK before 30th october jalsa of 2011 and became anti-IK after I smelled establishments dirty game behind sudden unexpected launch of IK in punjab and kpk and inclusion of seasoned "lotas" in PTI. Over the years I have become anti-establishment I hate the lavish life styles of army generals and their mistreatment of pakistani nation in the last 68 years, now there is no way back for me. The only reason why I support PMLN is because it is the only party at the moment which is truly capable of taming our rogue establishment and bringing them back to their senses so that they stop poking their nose in the political affairs of the country.

Patwari prapogandist?
& angels party the aka noora league , came from the A $$$$ Of Abraham Lincoln?
YOU can't see, it's the mega production of genrl jilani?

Flawed poll .. view the result most of them are PMLN votes any way ...
yes imran khan make some political mistakes and march was miss managed ... so what shit happens

& the worst thing he has is his , stupid kids supporters , who change Thier minds in a splits of the seconds, instead of staying with the leadership, all Thier stupid expectations are , that IMRAN just become a superman & Pull everything, like what happens in a 3 hours movie in Hollywood?
Sorry, I know I am not wellcome , here but let's talk the reality, instead blaming everything on the leadership?

 

[Rafael]

I voted N league in 2008 defended them like true Jiala infront of Musharaff supporters on this very forum
Voted PTI in 2013. Supported and defended them to the best of my abilities.
For next elections, think I'd vote for JI if Siraj ul Haq stays its chief. I like that man.

Conclusion : No political party can take me for granted. I'm not their 'kammi'

 

[Danish saleem]

I don't agree with few policies of PTI but If you compare with others , PTI is still better than other parties.

that why u think brother,
that's why i always says, that IK have 5 years to serve in KPK, and through his performance he easily able to penetrate in any party of Pakistan.
Secondly blunder made by CM KPK, and on one hand more than 18 People died, more than 80 injured, a loss of billions of property, he is dancing in Islamabad. which will defiantly effects on the emotions of KPK people, because Pathans are always emotional about their properties and homes.

Danish

I voted N league in 2008 defended them like true Jiala infront of Musharaff supporters on this very forum
Voted PTI in 2013. Supported and defended them to the best of my abilities.
For next elections, think I'd vote for JI if Siraj ul Haq stays its chief. I like that man.

Conclusion : No political party can take me for granted. I'm not their 'kammi'

Brother,

I voted for PPP in 2008 elections,
I voted for PTI in 2013 elections,
and i will vote to only that person who will perform better in performance, not to that one, who is performing on the stages right now.

 

[Areesh]

Musharraf is Off - foreign policy back list goes on...

Stop pinning IK's foolishness on army, establishment or Musharraf.

When a leader starts listening to his followers in the middle of speech and then delivers the speech accordingly then that tells you that leader is not worthy to be followed

 

[Devil Soul]

Now even their coalition partner JI have refused to be part of Civil Disobedience.....

 

[xyxmt]

I liked him when I thought he is emotional but truly patriotic

He is stupid

I was original supporter of Imran long before last election, I was like many PTIans now who convinced so many to give a chance to Imran also was a paying member of PTI for two years....but then I saw the dumbest sides of Imran on different occasions and I switched but I still respect him as a patriotic Pakistani who wishes good but dont know how to pick good advisors and like most Pakistanis he is khoshamd pasand. Most of you know me as PMLN support which I am not but currently that is the best option you have.

 

[Hyde]

I was original supporter of Imran long before last election, I was like many PTIans now who convinced so many to give a chance to Imran also was a paying member of PTI for two years....but then I saw the dumbest sides of Imran on different occasions and I switched but I still respect him as a patriotic Pakistani who wishes good but dont know how to pick good advisors and like most Pakistanis he is khoshamd pasand. Most of you know me as PMLN support which I am not but currently that is the best option you have.

The biggest problem for PTI is that most of the voters belong to the group of society who don't take PTI for granted. They want to test their leadership and only stick based on the performance. They analyse what the PTI is doing

The supporters of PPP and PML-N are blind.. PML-N is mostly the party of middle class business community and PPP the party of extremely poor but uneducated masses

 

[xyxmt]

The biggest problem for PTI is that most of the voters belong to the group of society who don't take PTI for granted. They want to test their leadership and only stick based on the performance. They analyse what the PTI is doing

The supporters of PPP and PML-N are blind.. PML-N is mostly the party of middle class business community and PPP the party of extremely poor but uneducated masses

PPP voters in sind are blind true, PMLN voters are old PPP voters from Punjab, all the seats PTI won in punjab were ex-PMLN and PPP voters. Imran did not give birth to those 7,500,000 voters he claims voted for PTI. PMLN voters are not die hard voters, i am talking about majority, they will vote for any other better option which they dont see as of now.