Featured Ex PN Chief Zafar Mehmood Abbasi highlighted PN modernization

[Thorough Pro]

What r u talking about?

who said that that it has not met the specified parameters and is not ready for induction.

 

[Signalian]

I guess the PN is looking at two main tiers:

'Frigate' | 4 Type 054A/P, 4 F-22P and 6(?) Jinnah-Class

'Corvette' | 4 MILGEM and 2 Yarmouk-Class


We'll have to wait for that clarification.

Right now, the Yarmouk-class (with its optional AShW and ELINT) is more capable than the Type 21s (which we classify as 'major' surface vessels today).

PN had Brooke and Garcia class Frigates (total 8) in service on lease through FMS that were sent back to USA after Pakistan refused to roll back its nuclear plans. PN probably wanted lease to convert into sale before expiry. Luckily PN didn't give back the lone Alamgir class Frigate. The 4 x Destroyers (Gearing Class) that PN acquired in 80's were decommissioned prior to 1994 before being heavily modified for PN use.

USA has been unreliable for PN just like it has been for PAF in case of F-16s. Those 8 x Frigates could have seen their service well into 2000's but they were USA property and had to be sent back. Chinese and Turks have proved to be better suppliers than Americans, though Pakistan should step into manufacturing all ships, parts and systems itself. South Korea (Hyundai ship Building) is a related example.

Pakistan Army pilots were trained on UH-60 Blackhawks as well as OH-58 Kiowa helicopters in 1990s and they flew day/night missions on both types of helicopters. The MH-60 Sea Hawk being a variant of UH-60 could have been a future contender for PN's ASW, ASUW, SAR , CSAR etc requirement had USA been reliable however MH-60 made its way into IN where as PN had to stick with Z-9 and refurbished Mk.45 Sea Kings. Similarly PN could have jumped from P-3C Orion to P-8 Poseidon but sufficed with ATR-72 and probably a new acquisition in near future.

 

[Signalian]

I suppose they've had a head start, considering their advantages, they been extremely poor at delivering. Even now the vessels being built in India have foreign origins, which I think is very poor.

100% it looks like we have starting on a journey of domestic autonomy and independent development.

The navy chief mentioned the gas reserves in his speech. It has been missed in all the excitement. We always hear about reserves in Pakistan but rarely in such manner from a naval chief.

Listen from about 12:45

The induction of new ships, subs and weapons will enhance PN's capability but as seen from past there is more or less an interest of a foreign nation involved in dynamics surrounding Pakistan (in this case CPEC) which gives rise to opportunities for Pakistan Armed Forces to expand. In50's, 60's, and 80's, it was USA. Since 2000's and in future it will be pre-dominantly China. One could argue that French helped without any worthwhile interest to build PN's submarine force and that may hold true to a large extent and currently Turkey is doing that for Pakistan.

It has to be seen how PN will pit its armada against IN in case of a conflict. Submarines are the most potent and stealthy offensive weapon that PN can bring into picture at or before the outbreak of a hostile conflict. The category and numbers of surface vessels that PN sends against IN and into IN waters will be a factor that IN strategists and analysists will be looking at. They know that PN lacks a strong air wing and IN will use it to its advantage to limit PN LRMPAs from advancing into skies controlled by IN. Therefore the threat factor from air diminishes for IN while it grows profoundly for PN. The Destroyers or Frigates that PN sends to make contact with IN will be attacked from IN air arm long before they come face to face with IN's vessels. So its not just the numbers which will withhold IN's advantage. The advent of PN acquiring 8 new subs has made IN buy P-8 and MH-60 while progressing otherwise in anti submarine domain too. India somehow has to break Pakistan's second strike capability to hold an edge in the outcome of war.

The modernisation of navy is important so it is be able to provide a safe and secure port for the ships to dock and unload at Gwadar port. This news of inducting vessels should provide confidence to other countries to send their shipments and trading vessels to Gwadar and use the CPEC routes for conducting their business. Rapid deployment of Marines through sea/air can turn out to be a major factor in protecting sea trade routes. The increase in Marine size should ensure that the Naval bases, docks and ports are well protected from attacks by anti-Pakistan elements. The QRF formed through Marines will be an intriguing feature of countering threats to vessels entering and leaving Pakistani shores and EEZ.

The ability to produce Naval weapons, platforms and systems is very important for Pakistan before occurrence of a war. Turkey is way ahead of Pakistan in this regard. Military TOT's from China or Turkey is a very strong first step but considering the trade routes, civilian container holding and docking capability, ship breaking and ship building, submarine hull design and warfare systems etc, Pakistan needs to build a solid footing in shipping industry. Naval logistics is another side where other countries who have ship building experience and massive ports are very proficient and Pakistan has to climb that ladder. JF-17 is being marketed and sold to different countries currently but affordable submarines, warships, barges, tankers etc can be sold tomorrow with advent in all processes of shipbuilding.

 

[CriticalThought]

@PanzerKiel I wish we could hear something similar for the army:

20:11

A dedicated Naval Research and Development institute colocated with Pakistan Navy Engineering College was established in 2019 to utilize the potential of uniformed PhD scholars and research students to develop niche technologies and to resolve intricate technical issues faced by Pakistan Navy.

 

[PanzerKiel]

@PanzerKiel I wish we could hear something similar for the army:

20:11

You are right. This is something in which PAF and PN are miles ahead of the army.

 

[Tair-Lahoti]

The Pakistan Ministry of Defence Production (MoDP)’s disclosure for the year 2017-2018 had revealed that Pakistan’s Directorate General of Munitions Production (DGMP) had given a green signal for the development of a supersonic missile to be used by the Pakistan Navy.

So, if it was under development since then and Naval chief announced its development, then it must be in final stages..

 

[Bratva]

If we go by the past pattern. MODP revealed in 2015-2016 that Pakistan is developing 1 Anti Ship and Land Attack Cruise Missile. Previous Admiral in his retirement speech in October 2017 revealed HARBA. Harba was tested in January 2018 from PNS Himmat

Similarly, Super-sonic cruise missile revealed in 2017-2018 MoDP Book. Retd.Admiral in his speech revealed P-282 AsBM in october 2020. PNS Haibat will be commissioned in December 2020.

Expect a Missile test in January or February 2021 of either Supersonic cruise missile or P-282 from PNS Haibat or from land based platform

3 year development lifecycle is emerging from a pattern as it seems. @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

 

[Sidacca]

One thing I can assure, hm China se import tou krty Hain but sensors apni marzi ki lagwatay Hain aik Europe country se.... Ye tou hoga

 

[Zarvan]

Technically Harba is a refined form of Babur.
Ranges are Classified can’t be disclosed. What they claim on paper and the real range is mostly understated.
P-282 size....Can’t disclose on on open source platform.

I don't want you to reveal anything specific, USA Tomahawk Cruise Missile has three versions. One of the has range of 1350 KM the second one has 1800 and third one is 2500 KM. In my humble opinion. Pakistan should develop a version of Babur which has range of around 2000 KM and could be fired from surface ships and submarines. Also as for Harbah its range is not enough. Pakistan should work on increasing its range to 1000 KM.

@Path-Finder @Rafi @Arsalan

 

[Rafi]

I don't want you to reveal anything specific, USA Tomahawk Cruise Missile has three versions. One of the has range of 1350 KM the second one has 1800 and third one is 2500 KM. In my humble opinion. Pakistan should develop a version of Babur which has range of around 2000 KM and could be fired from surface ships and submarines. Also as for Harbah its range is not enough. Pakistan should work on increasing its range to 1000 KM.

@Path-Finder @Rafi @Arsalan

Zarvan saab, these ranges seem arbitrary, regarding our missiles the ranges are not what they are generally advertised as.

 

[araz]

I suppose they've had a head start, considering their advantages, they been extremely poor at delivering. Even now the vessels being built in India have foreign origins, which I think is very poor.

100% it looks like we have starting on a journey of domestic autonomy and independent development.

The navy chief mentioned the gas reserves in his speech. It has been missed in all the excitement. We always hear about reserves in Pakistan but rarely in such manner from a naval chief.

Listen from about 12:45

My friend.
When we are importing the-steel for ship building from China or elsewhere and most sub assemblies will also come from outside we cannot be very indegenous-either. So the phrase goes.
People who live in glass houses should---------
My response is -----undress in the dark.
Enjoy and think.

for sure destroyers are priority..


besides in a colation of new world order to project power as a blue navy, pakistan can employ more battle field strategies with marines...
Pakistan marines will expand. in warfare deploying a brigade size force in an assault is a starting, once beach heads are formed, more troops can come in... india will be forced to divert troops to the south along with air assets, check out the range or tour fighter to provide air cover with refuel...

expand the noodle and shoot for the skies, It is for sure not ridiculous, but a naysayer will want to say it otherwise.

what do u think the last pillar stands for, i am brain storming lets hear from u

In the absence of a requisite number of frigates and-smaller ships Destroyers will not be a priority. Please understand PN has no desire to become a blhe water navy. Force projection outside of our supply lines is not our aim and to attribute a-wrong aim will lead to wrong conclusions and consequently disasterous consequences. We need to look at the constriants of our budget and act accordingly. Even if all goes well Pakistan will not be out of tbe debt trap till 2030 and on sound economic footings. All that you are hearing may well change if the economy takes a nose dive for any reason. So be circumspect in your analysis and dissect out things without going overboard which will help in making a more sound analysis.
Kind regards
A

 

[Armchair]

To build a ship based ASBM, you would need superior technology than currently available with Pakistani BMs. Pak BMs are large and less efficient than top tier powers. So this suggest Pak has caught up on that game in terms of the basic propulsion technology. It also suggest they are able to do precision strikes based on data linked assets.

 

[Armchair]

Does anyone guess what the 20x gunboats could be like? I'm hoping they are Azmat class vessels indigenously built.

 

[Dreamer.]

Does anyone guess what the 20x gunboats could be like? I'm hoping they are Azmat class vessels indigenously built.

Actually I hope they don't build 20 more Azmats. I'd rather see enhancement than more of the same. 6-8 of one design is enough.

 

[Armchair]

Actually I hope they don't build 20 more Azmats. I'd rather see enhancement than more of the same. 6-8 of one design is enough.

So what do you think the CNS meant with the 20 gun boats?