Featured Ex PN Chief Zafar Mehmood Abbasi highlighted PN modernization

[Zarvan]

Actually I hope they don't build 20 more Azmats. I'd rather see enhancement than more of the same. 6-8 of one design is enough.

And I hope they build more Azmat missile boats as well as indigenous gun boats. Azmat missile boats could become the ultimate beauty for us if we just do one thing, and I know if we have the will we can do it. That is Harbah missile which we have built, and which these Azmat class carries, if we can just increase its range to 1000 KM it would turn Azmat class ships to India's biggest nightmare. Trust me a Missile with 1000 KM range, and which can be fired from a Missile boat and can hit fixed targets on land as well moving enemy ships with equal precision. The kind of damage you can do with that, and psychological impact it would have on your adversary is incredulous and inconceivable.

@Tipu7 @Path-Finder @Arsalan @The Eagle @waz

 

[maverick1977]

Alhamdolillah. Finally. PN is getting what it deserved since long.

I have written extensively on Indian Ocean, Naval Aviation Trends etc. when i was associated with a think tank back in 2010-12. It is good sign that now we are finally moving from a Brown Water navy to a Green water navy. (Blue water is still far away and in new strategic alignment that must not be our goal either). My only concern is once all 13 LRMPA became part of PN, how PN is going to escort them in offensive missions? Certainly, we will see fighter squadrons becoming part of Air Arm of PN. On Surface fleet, I think once current planned acquisitions completed, Destroyers will be next logical thing especially equipped with ballistic/guided missiles.

Lastly, I have read too many times on this forum that money is a problem for PN or PAF. After what Ex-ACM Aman and Ex-CNS Abbasi achieved, we must understand the simple fact, vision is more important then anything else. Like PAF. PN will counter/deter all the capabilities possessed by our enemy (read India) InshaAllah. This also shows, that current government is supportive to all modernization programs be it army, air force or navy.

@PakShaheen79 , Thank you for you post. Can you share based on current trajectory and vision, where would we see PN till 2040? i am positive our Military thinks from long term perspective, 20 years is not too far away when we talk about acquisition cycles? Any thoughts?

My friend.
When we are importing the-steel for ship building from China or elsewhere and most sub assemblies will also come from outside we cannot be very indegenous-either. So the phrase goes.
People who live in glass houses should---------
My response is -----undress in the dark.
Enjoy and think.

In the absence of a requisite number of frigates and-smaller ships Destroyers will not be a priority. Please understand PN has no desire to become a blhe water navy. Force projection outside of our supply lines is not our aim and to attribute a-wrong aim will lead to wrong conclusions and consequently disasterous consequences. We need to look at the constriants of our budget and act accordingly. Even if all goes well Pakistan will not be out of tbe debt trap till 2030 and on sound economic footings. All that you are hearing may well change if the economy takes a nose dive for any reason. So be circumspect in your analysis and dissect out things without going overboard which will help in making a more sound analysis.
Kind regards
A

why cant we upgrade our Steel mill, make a semi autonomous entity for Profit and sell steel to internal entities and then open if for overseas projects? internal consumptioin will be more than sufficient, i am not sure on the data of usage of steel in pakistan and not sure how much does it produce.

 

[Dreamer.]

So what do you think the CNS meant with the 20 gun boats?

The term 'gunboats' can sometimes be used loosely also. I think he meant 20 smaller ships not necessarily all of the same type. He didn't elaborate further so we don't know more than that.....

Regarding Azmat, I personally think it is a good design but a little older now. We should look at building something more modern.

 

[Armchair]

And I hope they build more Azmat missile boats as well as indigenous gun boats. Azmat missile boats could become the ultimate beauty for us if we just do one thing, and I know if we have the will we can do it. That is Harbah missile which we have built, and which these Azmat class carries, if we can just increase its range to 1000 KM it would turn Azmat class ships to India's biggest nightmare. Trust me a Missile with 1000 KM range, and which can be fired from a Missile boat and can hit fixed targets on land as well moving enemy ships with equal precision. The kind of damage you can do with that, and psychological impact it would have on your adversary is incredulous and inconceivable.

@Tipu7 @Path-Finder @Arsalan @The Eagle @waz

I think the biggest danger for such gunboats would be air attack from combat aircraft, fighters, drones, helicopters.

If one could improve the air defenses, and perhaps add a small locally developed sonar system, you could have a very competitive product.

 

[Tipu7]

And I hope they build more Azmat missile boats as well as indigenous gun boats. Azmat missile boats could become the ultimate beauty for us if we just do one thing, and I know if we have the will we can do it. That is Harbah missile which we have built, and which these Azmat class carries, if we can just increase its range to 1000 KM it would turn Azmat class ships to India's biggest nightmare. Trust me a Missile with 1000 KM range, and which can be fired from a Missile boat and can hit fixed targets on land as well moving enemy ships with equal precision. The kind of damage you can do with that, and psychological impact it would have on your adversary is incredulous and inconceivable.

@Tipu7 @Path-Finder @Arsalan @The Eagle @waz

A new type of FACM will be procured...

 

[Dr-who]

No idea when a dedicated naval air force will materialize. Our missile boats and to am extent f-22 p are vulnerable to air attack

 

[Armchair]

In the world of drone wars, these ships would be sitting ducks without proper air defense...

 

[Rafi]

No idea when a dedicated naval air force will materialize. Our missile boats and to am extent f-22 p are vulnerable to air attack

The PAF and PN are being linked and are going net centric, if a Naval fighter wing was established it would just be PAF in all but name, with the pilots, engineers, maintenance all coming from PAF.

@Zarvan your desire of 'biggies' will full fill. UVLS modules which can carry cruise, Ballistic, torpedo & air defense missiles will come to PN provided that everything goes as per plans.

And 20 Major ships (destroyers + frigates) and 30 smaller ships (corvettes + OPVs + FACM) is very sensible target.

Any further expansion, if needed, (and is needed) will take place after 2030. It's worth noting we are not becoming a Blue Water Navy. We are just preparing ourselves for future threats which can endanger Pakistan and Sino-Pak shared interests in the region.

@Rafi Chief didn't disclose deals involving additional subs of four different types. Two are pre 2030 and two are post 2030 programs. Looks like he still don't want to show his underwater cards. The best surprise is the one which enemy never expects coming.

The Undersea development programme is the most secretive of all military projects other than the nuclear program. Because of the 2nd strike capability.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Does anyone guess what the 20x gunboats could be like? I'm hoping they are Azmat class vessels indigenously built.

They're an indigenous design using COTS inputs (e.g., engine, waterjets, etc).

Since they want to construct 20 such ships, they clearly want to build internal expertise of this boat across design and production. It would be a good idea to try designing a new ASCM/LACM/LWT-equipped FAC from this design.

 

[PakShaheen79]

@PakShaheen79 , Thank you for you post. Can you share based on current trajectory and vision, where would we see PN till 2040? i am positive our Military thinks from long term perspective, 20 years is not too far away when we talk about acquisition cycles? Any thoughts?

Thank you sir.

IMHO. The maritime power projection competition between the USA and China has direct impact on Pakistan's security situation. Indo-US pacific partnership is a catalyst in this already explosive geostrategic milieu. Now, China alone will never be able to counter QUAD across the IOR. Starting from the pacific rim of Indian ocean, in far east, it is obvious that a big maritime showdown will take place there between China and QUAD. Now among QUAD, India is a major player which is ambitious to become a global player and for that She wants to compete with China alone in BoB and Arabian Sea regions of Indian Ocean. This is something which ushered strategic constraint for PN as well and we have seen the consequent major upgrade plans by PN as outlined by Ex-CNS Abbasi. My only regret is that PN has to do such acceleration now because it seems that this sister force was completely ignored in last 3 decades. Apart from 3 Agosta-90s in 90s, and 4 F-22Ps in 2000's there was nothing acquired of significance in last 3 decades. These assets are now require upgrade as well. We saw real thrust in last 3 years in shape of various weapons systems and now an elaborate plan of major acquisition has been unveiled. In this plan too, most of the work was done in last 4-5 years.

Going back to strategic constraint, PN has been scrambled hard to rectify some grave shortcomings and consequently the entire force is being reshaped (3 task forces for 3 regions). This shows that these constraints are severe and war gaming done keep in mind the trajectory of ongoing events in IOR, PN has reached the conclusion that it has to be reformed (Technology), reshaped (Structure and Size) and re-branded ( Indigenization).

Naturally, PN will look for technologies from everywhere it can get but China will remain our main ally and supplier as She has her own reasons to support us with latest of their system. A Strong PN in Arabian Sea means proportionally less competitive IN against PLAN in other regions of IOR. In naval diplomacy, China needs allies like Pakistan to counter weight QUAD like strategic constructs.

If these geo-strategic events remain on the same pace and trends, PN modernization will be faster than usual for all above mentioned reasons. In 2040, PN will have AAW Destroyers (local design), Guided Missiles frigates/ destroyers even submarines (follow up of Hangoor Class) and Fighter squadrons as well. Hyper-sonic missiles will be part of PN and more than 1 such weapons will be part of surface fleet. Longer range SLBM will be part of PN as well (to ensure 2nd strike capability). In 2040, hypersonic will be what supersonic today is. Exact force projection in 2040, will directly depend how situation changes in this volatile region.

Many members here are perplexed by the vision of a div size Marine force and Brigade size SSGN force. I think this is v logical step.Offense is best defense and expeditionary forces sends clear message to the enemies. Plus we have sir creek and run of kuch like terrain where heavy armor will not work, By 2040, I believe PN will have a complete Marine Corps. (2 to 3 div sized force) equipped with all necessary gear and by default Landing ships/docks will be part of PN as well. To me, major task of Marine Corps will be to disrupt enemy plans to make surprise landing on shores and hitting key targets and infrastructure in enemy territory. Similarly, SSGNs will be multiple independent brigades carrying out missions deep inside enemy waters / territories using its own small fleet of smaller submarines. We might also see preparations for complex BEL ops carried out by joint task forces comprising on elements from Marine, SSGNs, PN Air wing etc.

Lastly, In future fighter squadron, Project AZM will be a key factor in Air-Sea battle scenario. IN already has a impressive fighter arm in its air wing and we must assume it will only get stronger till 2040. Considering Pakistan is looking for large number of AEW, MPA, platforms, the need of a platform which can make ingress/egress quickly in a naval battle where PN will always has numerical disadvantage, will always remain there. UCAV's role in Indo-Pak scenairo will be an interesting thing but till the time, these platforms got autonomous guidance, their true potential will remain untapped. Ideal scenario will be PN operating AZM (based on J-31) with 3-4 heavy UCAVs with autonomous guidance as wing men. Air Dominance over our EEZ must be the goal.

 

[Yasser76]

They're an indigenous design using COTS inputs (e.g., engine, waterjets, etc).

Since they want to construct 20 such ships, they clearly want to build internal expertise of this boat across design and production. It would be a good idea to try designing a new ASCM/LACM/LWT-equipped FAC from this design.

It's not a bad idea. One advantage (or disadvantage depending on how you look at things) is PN knows the approximate area of where we need to fight IN. Defending Pakistani waters does not require us to attack Koltota orAndaman Islands. We know the fight will be in the North Arabian Sea, we know likely assets, and routes enemy will use (not exact ones but approximates), we do not have the problem of say the PLAN trying to find US carriers over thousands and thousands of miles of the Pacific or or the US hunting Russian subs across the entire arctic. The area we have to defend is small (in naval terms), this meas we do not require many vessels that are large or need much food, fuel and lots of crew to have a very signficant impact, in fact I would argue, in a networked age, many of these FACs will not even need powerful radars. They can essentially act as simple mobile platforms for missile launches. A fleet of 20 means in war we could say use 6-8 to form a defensive line say 400km from Pak coast, arm them with 400km Anti-ship Harbour missiles cued and guided by MPA aircraft flying ahead. Then with just a small fleet of small boats you can have a defensive shield that can effectively target surface vessel that comes within 800km of the coast...

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

It's not a bad idea. One advantage (or disadvantage depending on how you look at things) is PN knows the approximate area of where we need to fight IN. Defending Pakistani waters does not require us to attack Koltota orAndaman Islands. We know the fight will be in the North Arabian Sea, we know likely assets, and routes enemy will use (not exact ones but approximates), we do not have the problem of say the PLAN trying to find US carriers over thousands and thousands of miles of the Pacific or or the US hunting Russian subs across the entire arctic. The area we have to defend is small (in naval terms), this meas we do not require many vessels that are large or need much food, fuel and lots of crew to have a very signficant impact, in fact I would argue, in a networked age, many of these FACs will not even need powerful radars. They can essentially act as simple mobile platforms for missile launches. A fleet of 20 means in war we could say use 6-8 to form a defensive line say 400km from Pak coast, arm them with 400km Anti-ship Harbour missiles cued and guided by MPA aircraft flying ahead. Then with just a small fleet of small boats you can have a defensive shield that can effectively target surface vessel that comes within 800km of the coast...

Interestingly, the radars may become more affordable in the long-run, albeit at the low-altitude, short-range element. It may not help with targeting, but you'd get dozens of gap-filling radars at sea (especially in littoral waters). If these are optimized to track small targets, it could make enemy infiltration and FAC ops very difficult.

 

[Yasser76]

Interestingly, the radars may become more affordable in the long-run, albeit at the low-altitude, short-range element. It may not help with targeting, but you'd get dozens of gap-filling radars at sea (especially in littoral waters). If these are optimized to track small targets, it could make enemy infiltration and FAC ops very difficult.

This leads me to think that in the Northern Arabian Sea area would a SOSUS type system be viable with Chinese help? Maybe we already have it in place....

 

[Dreamer.]

It's not a bad idea. One advantage (or disadvantage depending on how you look at things) is PN knows the approximate area of where we need to fight IN. Defending Pakistani waters does not require us to attack Koltota orAndaman Islands. We know the fight will be in the North Arabian Sea, we know likely assets, and routes enemy will use (not exact ones but approximates), we do not have the problem of say the PLAN trying to find US carriers over thousands and thousands of miles of the Pacific or or the US hunting Russian subs across the entire arctic. The area we have to defend is small (in naval terms), this meas we do not require many vessels that are large or need much food, fuel and lots of crew to have a very signficant impact, in fact I would argue, in a networked age, many of these FACs will not even need powerful radars. They can essentially act as simple mobile platforms for missile launches. A fleet of 20 means in war we could say use 6-8 to form a defensive line say 400km from Pak coast, arm them with 400km Anti-ship Harbour missiles cued and guided by MPA aircraft flying ahead. Then with just a small fleet of small boats you can have a defensive shield that can effectively target surface vessel that comes within 800km of the coast...

While you are planning all that, do take into account the fact that CNS said, "20 locally designed and built gunboats will be inducted by 2025". That means 4 ships a year. Now what class of ship do you think Pakistan is capable of building at that speed? Remember even Azmat class is not built at even close to this speed.

 

[Yasser76]

While you are planning all that, do take into account the fact that CNS said, "20 locally designed and built gunboats will be inducted by 2025". That means 4 ships a year. Now what class of ship do you think Pakistan is capable of building at that speed? Remember even Azmat class is not built at even close to this speed.

It depends on the capacity of our shipyards, if this has been expanded, and from all reports it has, then it would fair to assume that 4 vessels a year in the 250-300 ton class maybe possible.