Evolution question.

[Chogy]

look mate don't hurt religious sentiments due to your ignorance. Christianity ,Islam . and Judaism all believe in the fact we are direct descendent's from Adam and eve. (scientifically you can argue otherwise ) but don't ever hurt religious sentiments.

Could not Adam and Eve be the first human "creatures" given souls? When Cain killed Abel, he was afraid of the "others" out there... and he got the mark on his forehead. Who were the others? Obviously, other primitive people.

I find the debate, the reconciliation, between faith and evolution to be a fascinating and worthy topic. There's no reason it cannot be intelligently debated.

You mean mutations ?

I honestly don't know. Years ago, I was struggling with all of this. The evidence for evolution was (and remains) incomplete, as in, how and through what mechanism do new species pop up? And why do some, like the stegosaur, stay the exact same creature with no changes for millions of years? You think there'd be slow and steady change, but there's not.

One theory states that everything remains pretty stable for millions of years, and then, maybe due to a strong radiation event or geophysical change, a species changes form abruptly, and these changes are almost impossible to find in the fossil record.

It's hard to put a number on it, but I remember reading that becoming a fossil is amazingly rare for a creature. The odds of being fossilized in a recognizable form must be like 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000. We've got 8 or 10 complete T-Rex skeletons. How many of them lived? millions? Billions? So maybe we are simply missing the transitional fossils.

 

[kdelphi1983]

The evidence for evolution was (and remains) incomplete, as in, how and through what mechanism do new species pop up? And why do some, like the stegosaur, stay the exact same creature with no changes for millions of years? You think there'd be slow and steady change, but there's not.

I think change only happens when needed. If an organism has evolved to perfectly fit it's niche in the ecosystem, it wouldn't need to continue to change - Crocodiles and alligators comes to mind.

On the other hand, if the envoironment demands it, these organisms will have to change, or die out.

 

[MilSpec]

You make good points. I've often wondered why a stegosaur from 150 million years ago looks exactly the same as one from 100 million years ago. 50 million years of ZERO progress. Yet the evidence behind evolution is overwhelming. We just don't understand the mechanism. Perhaps there are short time periods of great change?

Maybe climatic conditions had to do with this. Different primate lines in different goegraphical conditions facing different climate must have had unique evolution patterns

 

[gubbi]

For me Adam and Eve were the first Human's-

No evolution at all-

So how did we reach a population of 7 billion people?

Incest? Isnt that a sin?

 

[Gold1010]

^ouch.

Are animals adapting to humans?

Most animals will avoid humans even predators is this a evolutionary thing?

 

[Skull and Bones]

So how did we reach a population of 7 billion people?

Incest? Isnt that a sin?

You owned him.

 

[kdelphi1983]

So how did we reach a population of 7 billion people?

Incest? Isnt that a sin?

Haha.. questions like these show how vital it is to separate science and religion.

 

[T90TankGuy]

Why is it not okay to discuss or criticize religion? If it is so superior, then it should be no problem to defend. The problem is religion totally abandoned logic and reason and falls apart when being looked at critically.

for one its a banned topic on this forum . second while you and i can discuss the merits or demerits of any said faith , to most people religion is very personal .

 

[JonAsad]

So how did we reach a population of 7 billion people?

Incest? Isnt that a sin?

Yes- and that was not a sin then-
tbh i can live with that- but cannot consent to- that our ancestors were stinky monkeys- animals-

You owned him.

You should up the anti little bit- Such petty things doesn't raise a hair-

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

Why is it not okay to discuss or criticize religion? If it is so superior, then it should be no problem to defend. The problem is religion totally abandoned logic and reason and falls apart when being looked at critically.

Do you know the difference between religion and science? Can we use science to 'verify' Gods existence or non-existence? No, certainly not so such a question or excercise is unscientific in the extreme. If you cannot refute something by empirical observation then why not at least admit it as a possibility to remain open to considering all possibilities about the unknown?

even if through the application of the scientific method, we were somehow eventually able to learn all that can be known about our universe from the moment of the Big Bang onwards, we would still be left with many unanswered existential questions. For example, why does our universe exist at all, instead of the continuation of the nothingness prevalent before the Big Bang?

It is possible to reply by invoking quantum fluctuations but such an answer only pushes the boundaries of the mystery a step further since one can then wonder why the physical laws are structured such as to allow quantum fluctuations. Why do the physica laws and fundamental constants of our universe favor increasing complexity as manifested by the structuring of matter into galaxies, solar systems, and planets and at least on Planet Earth also the emergence of life and consciousness? Does what we perceive as quantum mechanical indeterminacy lead to free will and emergent creativity and perhaps even enable the action of a transcendent Creative Force (Deity) in the framework of a rigorously scientific description of our universe?

Obviously such "why" questions are not in the realm of science. Any answers cannot either be supported or refuted by empirical observations and hence they are in the realm of religion. Furthermore, could our universe be just a component (or layer) of a more complex reality? In particular do other universes exist? If they do, how and why might they have come into being? Might any of them be connected to our universe via something like a "spacetime warp"? Might any of them be detectable by us? How might their physical laws, fundamental constants, and complexities compare with ours?

 

[Developereo]

You make good points. I've often wondered why a stegosaur from 150 million years ago looks exactly the same as one from 100 million years ago. 50 million years of ZERO progress. Yet the evidence behind evolution is overwhelming. We just don't understand the mechanism. Perhaps there are short time periods of great change?

Oh, I never questioned the existence of evolution. All I am saying is that, like you said, we don't understand the mechanism. At any point, there are millions, nay billions, of mutations. Some of them 'make it' and we end up with a chain of mutations leading up to new, 'beneficial' features. The conventional explanation is that these mutations 'win' because they provide better adaptation to the environment, but that is silly. Mutations are miniscule changes in the genetic code -- there is no single mutation that creates a photosensitive membrane or bipedalism or poison glands. Even the intermediate stages require a series of mutations. Something preserves the miniscule mutations, so they can eventually add up into a beneficial feature.

Now, it is not unreasonable to assume that the same kinds of mutations that pushed the primates onward also happened in the dinosaur lines. And, since they ruled the roost for 150 million years, it is also reasonable to assume that, at least some of them, lived in similar geographic and climatic conditions as early primates. But, for the dinosaurs, these mutations all came to naught. Why?

It is also worth noting that primate evolution is also highly punctuated. Species remained more or less static for hundreds of thousands of years. The first homo genus out of Africa, homo erectus, spread out over the globe but never evolved much for over a million years, and was eventually replaced by the newer genus, homo sapiens, who came -- once again -- out of Africa.

It seems that all the evolutionary bursts leading up to humans happened in Africa, and they were punctuated bursts. If I had the talent, I would write a science fiction story about a buried alien artifact in Africa that activated itself every million years or so and triggered the next burst of evolution, creating a superior species that replaced the existing one.

 

[A1Kaid]

Evolution exist.

 

[Shardul.....the lion]

Oh, I never questioned the existence of evolution. All I am saying is that, like you said, we don't understand the mechanism. At any point, there are millions, nay billions, of mutations. Some of them 'make it' and we end up with a chain of mutations leading up to new, 'beneficial' features. The conventional explanation is that these mutations 'win' because they provide better adaptation to the environment, but that is silly. Mutations are miniscule changes in the genetic code -- there is no single mutation that creates a photosensitive membrane or bipedalism or poison glands. Even the intermediate stages require a series of mutations. Something preserves the miniscule mutations, so they can eventually add up into a beneficial feature.

Now, it is not unreasonable to assume that the same kinds of mutations that pushed the primates onward also happened in the dinosaur lines. And, since they ruled the roost for 150 million years, it is also reasonable to assume that, at least some of them, lived in similar geographic and climatic conditions as early primates. But, for the dinosaurs, these mutations all came to naught. Why?

It is also worth noting that primate evolution is also highly punctuated. Species remained more or less static for hundreds of thousands of years. The first homo genus out of Africa, homo erectus, spread out over the globe but never evolved much for over a million years, and was eventually replaced by the newer genus, homo sapiens, who came -- once again -- out of Africa.

It seems that all the evolutionary bursts leading up to humans happened in Africa, and they were punctuated bursts. If I had the talent, I would write a science fiction story about a buried alien artifact in Africa that activated itself every million years or so and triggered the next burst of evolution, creating a superior species that replaced the existing one.

Yes, scientists claim that evolution is not steady process.
It has occurred in bursts where sudden new species or new improvements were found in shorter time period and long stagnation periods were also found.

 

[Mosamania]

I am a man of science I am a doctor who is research minded I splice RNA of viruses at my university as a pass time but I have to say even though evolution is an "Interesting theory" It is still not scientifically proven yet. When you study medicine you have to wonder "How the hell is this coincidence"?? Grey matter makes an impulse through a very complicated nervous (Electrical) system to parts of the body and then gets feedback in such an absolutely clever way that is down to the molecular level. How come our bodies use Sodium and Potassium in all the right places in such a perfect manner. If we are constantly evolving does not that mean that there is always something wrong with us that need fixing?? If not then wouldn't we all be deficient in something and that not everything is as perfectly organised in such a way down to the DNA level.

I guess what I am trying to say is the question of all science philosophy and religion are trying to answer. (Why?)

I read about a lot of religions from Shintoism to Mormon Christians. All their interpretations are flawed but Islam's one is the one that makes the most sense for me. Seriously do not look at it from a biased point of view the story of creations and everything may sound like fairy tales in the modern world but it is the one that makes the most sense for me currently.

 

[gubbi]

Oh, I never questioned the existence of evolution. All I am saying is that, like you said, we don't understand the mechanism. At any point, there are millions, nay billions, of mutations. Some of them 'make it' and we end up with a chain of mutations leading up to new, 'beneficial' features.

In DNA synthesis, there is a protein which synthesizes the DNA molecule. It has what wee biochemists call - proof reading ability, in the sense that it "reads" or rechecks what it just synthesized. If there is a mistake (remember that these proteins are extremely fast in their work but the mistakes they make is something like 1 base in a million in a simple organism like E. coli bacteria!), there are other proteins which promptly jump in to correct the mistake ensuring that the mutation does not get replicated and passed on to the progeny.

The conventional explanation is that these mutations 'win' because they provide better adaptation to the environment, but that is silly. Mutations are miniscule changes in the genetic code -- there is no single mutation that creates a photosensitive membrane or bipedalism or poison glands. Even the intermediate stages require a series of mutations. Something preserves the miniscule mutations, so they can eventually add up into a beneficial feature.

Actually your first point is somewhat true and explains what you wrote in the follow up.

Now, it is not unreasonable to assume that the same kinds of mutations that pushed the primates onward also happened in the dinosaur lines. And, since they ruled the roost for 150 million years, it is also reasonable to assume that, at least some of them, lived in similar geographic and climatic conditions as early primates. But, for the dinosaurs, these mutations all came to naught. Why?

It is also worth noting that primate evolution is also highly punctuated. Species remained more or less static for hundreds of thousands of years. The first homo genus out of Africa, homo erectus, spread out over the globe but never evolved much for over a million years, and was eventually replaced by the newer genus, homo sapiens, who came -- once again -- out of Africa.

Nice. I like it.

It seems that all the evolutionary bursts leading up to humans happened in Africa, and they were punctuated bursts. If I had the talent, I would write a science fiction story about a buried alien artifact in Africa that activated itself every million years or so and triggered the next burst of evolution, creating a superior species that replaced the existing one.

Beautiful plot line. But then again, if you have seen the first 30 mins of Stanley Kubrick's 2001: A Space Oddessy, that is exactly what happens!!