Emerging Pakistan - Part I - Views on the future of the country

[Halaku Khan]

"Undoing the overdo" - Ahem - fascinating. Excellent effort and you have shown great sincerity.

However I must point out a few flaws -


"Pakistan... has downplayed and not vociferously raised in international fora the presence of terrorists and extremists within the Indian Army – such as Col. Purohit – who have blown up trains and killed dozens of Pakistani citizens on Indian soil, and has even attempted to address key issues such as India’s violation of the Indus Water Treaty in an understated and diplomatic way"

Trains??? One train was blown up by Purohit and he in jail. He is not roaming around extolling war like a certain Hafiz Saeed. The allegation has against neither Purohit nor Saeed been proved but the former rots in gaol.

Violation of Indus Water Treaty???? When? Have you read the text of the Treaty? The Treaty forbids creation of a barrage for irrigation and not for navigation. And India has not built it yet and all disputes on the Treaty are mediated upon by neutral commission. How much has then West Pakistan's population grown to? Would that not contribute to less water per capita?

Hello Jackdaws, the train was blown up by Arif Qasmani of the LeT.

 

[Halaku Khan]

But in general, Pakistan is a very moderate society.

Are you serious? Were you educated in a government school? Don't you know that making speeches on Jihad and Shahadat is part of your curriculum?

But there must be an increasing number of Pakistanis who realize that what they are fed by their elites and their government is BS. Such people would indeed be moderates. As they say, you can't fool all the people all the time.

 

[Abi]

In my opinion, Pakistan's number one threat is terror groups in Pakistan. Pakistan needs to increase national security and ensure that terrorist groups don't operate from Pakistan.

You need to improve relations with India, and you need to help get rid of the Taliban in Afghanistan. You also need better relations with Iran, which isn't helped by the fact that Jundullah operates out of your country.

 

[TechLahore]

In my opinion, Pakistan's number one threat is terror groups in Pakistan. Pakistan needs to increase national security and ensure that terrorist groups don't operate from Pakistan.

Thank you for sharing your opinion.

You need to improve relations with India, and you need to help get rid of the Taliban in Afghanistan. You also need better relations with Iran, which isn't helped by the fact that Jundullah operates out of your country.

You've got all your ducks in a row it seems, since you are so liberally dispensing with advice on what you think we "need" to do.

Let me just say that I don't want to squabble with you simply because of that flag on your profile. But please don't push me. I have seen several of your comments on other threads in this forum also, and I don't much care for your views about Pakistan. Please let me stay positive about Iran.

 

[TechLahore]

Are you serious?

Yes, I am very serious. And I have already explained that regardless of what anyone says about "extremism" in Pakistan, we've never voted in a right-wing religious government to power. Unlike the BJP in India, for example.

The largest party in Pakistan is a left-leaning liberal party and has been for decades.

Were you educated in a government school? Don't you know that making speeches on Jihad and Shahadat is part of your curriculum?

So? The true meaning of Jihad (Struggle) and the importance of Shahadat (Giving your all in the Way of God) are part of Islam and there is nothing wrong with muslim children learning about Islam.

But there must be an increasing number of Pakistanis who realize that what they are fed by their elites and their government is BS. Such people would indeed be moderates.

Don't lose perspective due to your bias against Pakistan. Most people in most countries are fed BS by their "elites". Whether its Rupert Murdoch indoctrinating Americans with toxic Fox News broadcasts in the US, or Modi and co. creating the justification for the slaughter of hundreds/thousands of muslims in India.

As they say, you can't fool all the people all the time.

Some people don't need to be fooled. It is their natural condition.

 

[ejaz007]

Pakistan Ka Kia Banay Ga?
Monday, February 08, 2010
By Ansar Abbasi

ISLAMABAD: “Pakistan Ka Kia Banay Ga” (what will happen to Pakistan), is the most asked question today by the general public, who are full of scepticism and doubts about the future of their homeland.

People had been hardly as much concerned about the future of the country as they are these days. Whether you talk to ordinary folks in the streets, the top executives and high professionals in the private sector, members of the civilian or military bureaucracy, businessmen or politicians, everybody is unsure, uncertain and in a state of disbelief.

There is something seriously going wrong here. As a nation, we are on the fast track of decline. Corruption is unbridled, mismanagement is the rule of the day, law and order is deteriorating, governance has lost its meaning and the state institutions are in complete disarray.

The government, the prime minister, the cabinet and all other executive institutions are held hostage to the whims and wishes of just one man — the democratically elected President Asif Ali Zardari. The judiciary, which for the first time in the history of Pakistan has become independent, is on the target after its recent decision on the NRO. However, the judiciary is strong enough to face such attacks because of the support of the general public.

The institutions of the Pakistan Army and the ISI have been put on the defensive after being repeatedly but subtly blamed for conspiring against democracy (read president). There are not even many politicians to believe this but the kind of aspersions cast at the Khakis by no less than the president have certainly disappointed the men in uniform. Presently, both the Army chief and the DG ISI enjoy the complete trust of not only the military’s ranks and files but are also generally respected by the civvies.

The year 2010 is critical for the military. The incumbent Army chief, who did an excellent job during the last two years to re-deem the military’s respect that was at its lows when the ousted dictator handed over the command to General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani, is completing his tenure in October this year.

The incumbent ISI chief, who too did remarkably well particularly to cut some influential foreigners to size, is also retiring next month. General Pasha may get extension but it is not yet clear who would be the next ISI chief. The ISI, which served as the CIA’s extension under Musharraf, would be destroyed if this state institution gets any weak or pro-American leader after its incumbent chief’s departure.

Now the main concern in the military is: who would be the next Army chief. The right selection of a professional soldier is a must to secure the interests of Pakistan and the Army too. If the 17th Amendment is not reversed by then, President Zardari would be at liberty to appoint his choice Army chief. What would be his selection is a million dollar question but given his past decisions and choices for civilian institutions, apprehensions are bound to haunt both people in uniform and others. The condemned ousted dictator may also try to get some of his blue-eyed three star pro-American generals to brighten his chances of returning to the corridors of power.

On the civilian side, the bureaucracy is politicised like never before, totally disgruntled and disappointed. The top mandarins in the civil service have yet to get out of the shock that they had recently received following highly controversial promotions made by the prime minister.

Consequently, the top policy-making body and other key civilian institutions are badly suffering. Ad hocism is the rule of the day. Vulnerable bureaucracy, politicised decision-making and growing meddling into bureaucratic affairs are the ingredients of a perfect recipe for mismanagement, corruption and bad-governance and this is precisely what is happening in Islamabad.

The Pakistan Steel Mills is swallowing billions of rupees from the public kitty every month but still not given the attention that it deserves to save it from a complete collapse. The Pakistan International Airlines has become yet another white elephant but mismanagement and controversial appointments are continuing unchecked in it.

The Pakistan Railways is too making heavy losses but here too the unattended factors of mismanagement and corruption remain unattended. Many such institutions, including the Insurance Corporation of Pakistan, which are led by handpicked favourites instead of professionals and competent managers selected on merit through transparent procedures, are also on the fast track of joining the list of white elephants dependent on hundreds of billions of annual grants from taxpayers’ money.

With corruption attaining new heights, there is absolutely no check on it by the government that instead seems to be promoting it. NAB is flooded with complaints of massive corruption but it finds its hands tied to probe these cases of loot and plunder. The FIA is highly politicised and dances to the tunes of the rulers. It is generally believed that this is perhaps the best time to make money as no one is interested to watch you or catch you.

Privates businesses and major investors are on the run because of extremely poor conditions. There are reports of some top businessmen having being approached on behalf of some influential rulers to grease the right palms. The tales of harassment of Hashwanis and Manshas are already making rounds. Instead of facilitating them, the government regulators are making the conditions tougher and tougher for the investors.

In such a bleak scenario, people today sound more concerned about Pakistan than anything else. Pakistan cannot sustain to be run in the present fashion. It requires a change — a change in presidential style to ensure good governance, merit based appointments, a crusade against corruption, rule of law and effective role of the cabinet and parliament.

The constitutional distortions need to be removed. If the president and the prime minister are not ready for this crucial change and continue with their present misrule and none-serious attitude towards issues of national importance then it is the opposition particularly the PML(N)’s responsibility to use all democratic means, including protests and long marches, to compel the government to do what is for the good of the country. Even the demand for the mid-term polls could be a possibility.

The judiciary is doing well and it ought to continue adjudging the cases placed before it in line with law and the Constitution without any fear or favour. It should not be bothered about the negative propaganda unleashed by the government against the judiciary after the latter handed down its decision on the NRO. The military, on the other side, should remain focused on its soldering matters and start learning the art of staying away from politics.

Pakistan Ka Kia Banay Ga?

 

[TechLahore]

Pakistan Ka Kia Banay Ga?
Monday, February 08, 2010
By Ansar Abbasi

Ansar Abbasi: your neighbourhood kiraey ka ghunda dressed in the garb of a journalist.

 

[Hutchroy]

The ADB Aid would have been repaid like all Debts repaid by India.

As will the IMF loan being given to Pakistan. And the US "Aid", aka reimbursements are actually money spent first and reimbursed later. So technically, we are the ones floating cash to the Americans...

In a nutshell, India is and has been getting aid from a large number of countries and institutions over decades and decades. Aid received from certain quarters, such as Japan, has actually increased recently.

And Again All Re-paid!

CRS Report: China's Foreign Policy and "Soft Power" in South America, Asia, and Africa



This is an untruth.

Here is a reference:

However, all the members of the Aid India Consortium have joined in giving debt relief to India, and the United Kingdom has made debt refinancing loans totalling £50 million over the past six years. The World Bank is now studying India's aid and debt position and expects to produce further proposals for action by the consortium.

I am producing just one reference because that is enough to refute your assertion that India has "never" asked for debt forgiveness. Look around and you will find many more... I did.

INDIA: REFUGEE AID AND DEBT RELIEF (Hansard, 11 November 1971)

1. "Refinancing" means that the "Repayment" is prolonged - not "Debt Forgiveness"

2. This amount was given due to the Love given by the West Pakistanis to the East Pakistani Bengalees whereby India had around Ten Million Refugees.

India could not feed itself. How could it feed the Additional Ten Million Refugees from what is now Bangladesh?

+++++

Meantime please note that despite all the Wars and Terrorism perpetrated by Pakistani State or Non-State Actors India will never stop the "River Waters".

Reason : Forget World Opinion, Forget the Pakistanis, Forget the Indian Muslims as even the remaining One Billion Non-Muslim Indians will go against the Indian Government if it Stops the River Waters.

Even I, who have no rights on or in India as I am not an Indian Citizen will never support "Stoppage" of River Waters to Pakistan.

I trust you will remember when on this forum - about Iran Gas Pipe Line to India - a person, most probably an Indian, suggested that if Pakistan stops the "Gas" India would stop the "River Waters" then I ridiculed his statement.

Never Fear about "River Waters" for what India does to Pakistan China will do to India.

In such changed Circumstances there will be a precedence and as such if China stops the River Waters to India then "World Opinion" will force China to stop. If not, then you know the option that India will have in such circumstances - Precedence.

 

[Hutchroy]

Mods : My apology for this off Topic Article but it is pertinent.

TechLahore,

US has never propped up India: Gates

WASHINGTON : United States has dismissed Pakistani perceptions that it was propping India, saying that New Delhi "did not need us for that purpose" and has advocated that the two neighbours resolve their differences bilaterally.

"I would tell you that the United States clearly has not or has ever propped up India. India has not needed us for that purpose and, in fact, those familiar with the history would know that our relationship with India was fairly strained until not too many years ago," defence secretary Robert Gates has said.

Gates comments came in response to questions fired at him during his recent visit to Pakistan, full transcript of which have released by the Pentagon.

In his exchanges with Indian and Pakistani leaders, Gates said both the countries had said they would like to resolve the differences bilaterally.

"Having an open and candid and completely transparent dialogue... seems to be the best way to avoid misunderstanding," Gates said in key remarks as New Delhi and Islamabad are set to resume their stalled bilateral talks.

He said there were misgivings both in Islamabad and New Delhi on the role the two countries were playing in Afghanistan and it was essential that in any future dialogue such a misunderstanding should be cleared.

He also suggested that India and Pakistan could deal with the suspicions through back channel discussions.

Though both Islamabad and New Delhi saw no role for third party intervention in their bilateral dialogue, the US defence secretary said, "if we can be of any help and if the two parties want us to be of help, we will do what we can. We are prepared to play a constructive role, but only if both parties want us to be involved."

Gates said US had made it clear that terrorist outfits like the Taliban in Afghanistan, Taliban in Pakistan, al-Qaida, Haqqani network and Lashkar-e-Taiba were working together which is a common threat to "US, Pakistan, Afghanistan as well as India."

"There has to be a level of cooperation in countering the terrorist threat in India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, the United States and others to prevent the terrorists from doing exactly what their objective is.

"Believe me, there should be no mistake; these terrorists want to destabilise Pakistan. They would like to see Pakistan become an extremist state and that is their objective. And if they think they can provoke a conflict with India, that's what they will try to do," he said.

"All I was saying when I was in India was we all have to work together to prevent that kind of an outcome. We all have a common enemy. We all have a common purpose," he said.

Fact : The USA is a Bad Enemy and a Worse as well as an Unreliable Friend!

 

[TechLahore]

Regarding your comments above re India's loans etc., one just has to follow this thread to recognize that the position you started off with has evolved significantly... initially it was as if India didn't get aid, then it become, ok they take aid but not billions, then we demonstrated that it WAS indeed billions, then you said but they pay it back, I explained that so did Pakistan - and in fact in many instances over the last 10 years, Pakistan had been fronting money to the US, then you went on to debt forgiveness, then I highlighted that India has also benefited from debt alleviation (which, btw, includes lowered payments over the same time and is therefore the 'forgiveness' of some debt as per the original contract), now you're on to the reasons why India took debt in the specific instance I highlighted *even though* I told you this was only one example.

I cannot discuss this any longer with you. While you may not get the point here, I think any reasonable person who peruses this thread will. That is enough for me.

Mods : My apology for this off Topic Article but it is pertinent.

TechLahore,

Fact : The USA is a Bad Enemy and a Worse as well as an Unreliable Friend!

I won't even attempt a response to the above because I fail to understand why you've even brought it up here. I'll just say that I agree with you that this is a completely off-topic article!

 

[EjazR]

@TechLahore

First of all, I would like to commend on using references in most places of your article. I just found two obvious inaccuracies in my quick read that I thought I would point out.

Col Purohit targetting Pakistani nationals - This is a very common mixup. First of all, he was implicated in the Malegaon blasts were he wanted the bomb blasts to implicate muslims living there, and it happened on Indian not foreign soil.

Turkey accepts Pakistan stand on Kashmir - I'm not sure what you mean here. Turkey as most countries maintains that the issue should be resolved bilaterally. Is that what you intended to say is Pakistan stand? It does get a bit confusing on what GoP stand is as it changes based on context. But it has usually been implementing plebescite as per UN resolutions. Please provide a link where Turkey has indicated this as its stand on resolving the Kashmir issue if any and I will change my opinion

 

[sab]

@ Tech Lahor

I appreciate your confidence because it is the first building block to build a nation. But what Pakistan need is a great leader who can make people of Pakistan to participate in this dream. If you set optimistic goals and work according to a thoughtfully derived plan it would not be much difficult for Pakistan to take a turnback.

However , for achieving 100% literacy you might have to wait few generations. Because in your projection you have missed 50% of population who are illiterate. Even if all of new generation goes to schools , those 50% people have to die to get your figure of 100% literacy within next 10-15 years. However 100% literacy among new generation is very much achievable. Education up to at least 10th standard should be totally free and there must be enough scholarships for poor students of good merit. In Pakistan also mid-day meal scheme for school students can be tried. In India (It is the largest school lunch programme in world) it has given good result. You can get more information about mid-day meal scheme in internet. Beside that the authorities should be very strict about negligency of parents about the education of their children.

The next step is to build up more technical institutes, B-schools etc. Government should encourage private investment in higher education. Because without skilled people you can not do well in industrial sector. As you mentioned about improving export, there will be huge competition from developing countries like China, India and many Latin American countries. To survive you not only have to upgrade standard of your products, but you will be needed skilled workforce. So investment should be made on R&D, training institutes. Remember Indian industry got the protection from foreign competition up to 90s which helped them to build up their base and they survived foreign competition after economic liberation. But your new industries will have to face the heat from very beginning. Anyway it situation of Pakistan becomes peaceful, many foreign company will be interested to set up production units in Pakistan to tap its own market.

One more thing, while planning, those areas should be identified where Pakistan has strength and those will be more focused to get the edge in foreign market. As an example if Pakistan does not have good reserve of iron ore, it must not bother about setting iron and still plant. But if it has young English speaking population with IT education Pakistan can do well in IT and ITES. If a small country like Japan with almost zero resources can do such wonder just because of their determination and patriotism then why not Pakistan. Rather, we, the Indians should be ashamed if, with so much God-gifted resources we cant accelerate the pace of development.

 

[Chanakyaa]

@ Tech Lahor

I appreciate your confidence because it is the first building block to build a nation. But what Pakistan need is a great leader who can make people of Pakistan to participate in this dream. If you set optimistic goals and work according to a thoughtfully derived plan it would not be much difficult for Pakistan to take a turnback.

However , for achieving 100% literacy you might have to wait few generations. Because in your projection you have missed 50% of population who are illiterate. Even if all of new generation goes to schools , those 50% people have to die to get your figure of 100% literacy within next 10-15 years. However 100% literacy among new generation is very much achievable. Education up to at least 10th standard should be totally free and there must be enough scholarships for poor students of good merit. In Pakistan also mid-day meal scheme for school students can be tried. In India (It is the largest school lunch programme in world) it has given good result. You can get for information about mid-day meal scheme. Beside that the authorities should be very strict about negligency of parents about the education of their children.

The next step is to build up more technical institutes, B-schools etc. Government should encourage private investment in higher education. Because without skilled people you can not do well in industrial sector. As you mentioned about improving export, there will be huge competition from developing countries like China, India and many Latin American countries. To survive you not only have to upgrade standard of your products, but you will be needed skilled workforce. So investment should be made on R&D, training institutes. Remember Indian industry got the protection from foreign competition up to 90s which helped them to build up their base and they survived foreign competition after economic liberation. But your new industries will have to face the heat from very beginning. Anyway it situation of Pakistan becomes peaceful, many foreign company will be interested to set up production units in Pakistan to tap its own market.

One more thing, while planning, those areas should be identified where Pakistan has strength and those will be more focused to get the edge in foreign market. As an example if Pakistan does not have good reserve of iron ore, it must not bother about setting iron and still plant. But if it has young English speaking population with IT education Pakistan can do well in IT and ITES. If a small country like Japan with almost zero resources can do such wonder just because of their determination and patriotism then why not Pakistan. Rather, we, the Indians should be ashamed if, with so much God-gifted resources we cant accelerate the pace of development.

Very Correct Points.

Add to it the fact that They have a few very unique opportunities that they need to tap ::

#1. The Massive Coal Reserves recently Found, can make them a Leading Coal Exporter.

#2. They can be a Fighter Jet Exporter to Third world Countries with their Cheap JF17s.

#3. They can Make Huge Changes with Industrial Developments, as they have very good relations with the Oil producing Nations especially Saudi Arabia and Iran.

#4. Make Dedicated Programmes/Initiatves to attract Tourism in Pak, no doubt they have avery diverse Flora/Fauna waiting...

#5. They Need to Become an Economic Partner of China, You Must Think over Just Military Prodcuts and Find ways to benifit from the Massive Chinese Progress.

 

[TechLahore]

@TechLahore

First of all, I would like to commend on using references in most places of your article. I just found two obvious inaccuracies in my quick read that I thought I would point out.

Thank you!

Col Purohit targetting Pakistani nationals - This is a very common mixup. First of all, he was implicated in the Malegaon blasts were he wanted the bomb blasts to implicate muslims living there, and it happened on Indian not foreign soil.

Actually, I never said Purohit targeted Pakistanis inside Pakistan. In a previous post in this thread I did point out that the Pakistanis who were being transported in the Samjhota express were killed on Indian territory.

Turkey accepts Pakistan stand on Kashmir - I'm not sure what you mean here. Turkey as most countries maintains that the issue should be resolved bilaterally. Is that what you intended to say is Pakistan stand? It does get a bit confusing on what GoP stand is as it changes based on context. But it has usually been implementing plebescite as per UN resolutions. Please provide a link where Turkey has indicated this as its stand on resolving the Kashmir issue if any and I will change my opinion

Turkey has stated at the Presidential and Prime Ministerial levels on several occasions, that they support Pakistan on Kashmir. Frankly, I don't think it behooves a diplomat to get into the nitty-gritty of an issue and express very detailed black and white views publicly when this is not necessary. However, since Pakistan and India's positions have evolved with our ups and downs, what Turkish support specifically means to Pakistan has also oscillated. For example, during President Musharraf's time, Pakistan and India came pretty close to settling this issue only to face disappointment at the 11th hour. Obviously, both parties were taking a compromise position in these negotiations which was far removed from the publicly stated "Akhand Bharat" vs "Kashmir banay ga Pakistan" positions.

It is to be noted, however, that Turkey has continued its support of Pakistan through these negotiations with India. During President Abdullah Gul's most recent visit, the President of Pakistan again thanked him for Turkey's support on Kashmir. Turkey has always supported Pakistan within the OIC whenever the latter has raised the issue of Kashmir - including on resolutions condemning brutality etc. Net-net, if you were looking for an answer to the question of whether Turkey would 'vote' for Pakistan or India on this issue, I think the evidence points very heavily towards Pakistan.

Some references:

ISLAMABAD (May 22 2003) : President General Pervez Musharraf on Wednesday assured the Turkish Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul that Pakistan would continue supporting the Turkish position on Cyprus - till its final settlement.
[..]
Dr Gul reiterated Turkish support for Pakistan on the occupied Kashmir issue.

Pakistani Defence Forum > Musharraf Assures Turkey Of Support On Cyprus

Extract from "Why do Turks like Pakistan"

Turkish officials have always welcomed Pakistanis no matter what their political conditions were. Turkey’s strong support for Pakistan in the Kashmir case has also been a major contributor to the relationship. In spite of the problems with India, Turkey kept to its support and said: “… just because you are Pakistan.”


Why do Turks Like Pakistan?

PAK-TURKEY RELATIONS
by M Hussain
Iraq and Afghanistan. Both countries also extended useful support to each other from time to time on the Kashmir and Cyprus issues.

http://www.ciaonet.org/journals/tjir/v7i2/f_0007406_6319.pdf

 

[TechLahore]

Very Correct Points.

Add to it the fact that They have a few very unique opportunities that they need to tap ::

#1. The Massive Coal Reserves recently Found, can make them a Leading Coal Exporter.

#2. They can be a Fighter Jet Exporter to Third world Countries with their Cheap JF17s.

#3. They can Make Huge Changes with Industrial Developments, as they have very good relations with the Oil producing Nations especially Saudi Arabia and Iran.

#4. Make Dedicated Programmes/Initiatves to attract Tourism in Pak, no doubt they have avery diverse Flora/Fauna waiting...

#5. They Need to Become an Economic Partner of China, You Must Think over Just Military Prodcuts and Find ways to benifit from the Massive Chinese Progress.

Thank you for your constructive and friendly post. I agree that these and many other areas are ripe for Pakistan to benefit from... and we are doing so.

Just in IT export alone, we've been growing at 50% YoY and the industry in Pakistan is now valued by PSEB at over $3B. For a very late start, we're doing pretty well.

Defence exports, as you point out, are another area. These have grown quite rapidly and IDEAS is a widely attended defence expo now with dozens of countries participating. It has increased Pakistan's defence exports significantly. With our entry into bigger ticket items like the JF-17, we could realistically treble or quadruple exports fairly easily. Iraq, which had historically not had defence relations with Pakistan during the Ba'ath era, is also now coming to the table and wanting to purchase weapons. So the customer base is growing.

Once again, thank you for your post.