Emerging Pakistan - Part I - Views on the future of the country

[TechLahore]

So Pakistan’s per capita water availability has gone down by a third. However Pakistan’s Population in the corresponding period has gone by Five to Six Times.

I am sure you don’t need to be a Rocket Scientist to realize that there is no basis in the Pakistani Allegation that India is stealing Pakistan’s Share of the River Waters under the IWT as you will ind that Pakistan’s River Water share has gone up and not down.

Why indulge in round about arguments to go around the core issue? The simple issue is as I have stated previously; India is NOT allowed under the IWT to build reservoirs greater than .01MAF and it is not allowed to stop the flow of the three rivers in question. The Baglihar dam will violate both these tenets. The question is not about per-capita water consumption or the growth of the Indian or Pakistani population. It is a simple question of India violating the IWT to build a structure that the IWT does NOT allow.

I am sure that you would like to blame India for the 40% of the water used in Irrigation in Pakistan wasted due to water losses, caused by an inefficient canal system and theft and water-logging and salinity

What are you going on about? The fact that Pakistan's canal system is inefficient has nothing to do with the INFLOW of water coming in from the three rivers that the IWT gives to Pakistan!!! The Baglihar project is a completely separate and unrelated issue to whether or not canals in Pakistan are lined. The violation of the IWT on India's part will not go away just because Pakistan brick lines its canals. Two completely separate issues... please stay on topic.

 

[Jackdaws]

TechLahore

Baghlihar issue was resolved through international arbitration with design changes to the dam which included reduction of the height by between 1-2 meters (I don't remember exact number), reduction of poundage capacity by 15% or so and one more change. And the dam is now built according to these specifications. It is operational - so what's the fuss?


Wullar - "incidental storage" is if India is using it for storage - under the Treaty India is allowed non-consumptive use for navigation. Either way - Pakistan agreed to its construction in '91 but then linked it Kishenganga Project. So the project is stalled. Unless issue is resolved to satisfaction of both parties - India has not gone ahead and built anything.

 

[TechLahore]

Really!

Do let me know as to the Billions upon Billions of US Dollars India is begging the USA by way of a Marshall Aid Plan or from the Friends of India or for that matter from the Friends of Democratic India.

Then we will discuss further about India's poverty.

I don't want to be rude and call it 'begging' but China did just shoot down $2.6B in assistance that India had requested from the ADB.

When Pakistan borrows, Pakistan is poor and when India borrows, India is rich?

China blocks £2 billion in aid to India - Telegraph

As per the following link, India has also been receiving food aid from the US:

How U.S. Food Aid Policies Perpetuate Poverty - India Currents

And this is not a recent phenomenon. India has relied on US food aid since the past many decades as this NY Times article from the '60s will demonstrate:

Report Says U.S. Food Aid To India Is Now a 'Monster' - Free Preview - The New York Times

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

You forgot UK aid programmes for india
UK to scale back aid to India - India - The Times of India
And beggers calling others the same.....lame duck

 

[Hutchroy]

Why indulge in round about arguments to go around the core issue? The simple issue is as I have stated previously; India is NOT allowed under the IWT to build reservoirs greater than .01MAF and it is not allowed to stop the flow of the three rivers in question. The Baglihar dam will violate both these tenets. The question is not about per-capita water consumption or the growth of the Indian or Pakistani population. It is a simple question of India violating the IWT to build a structure that the IWT does NOT allow.

The core issue is the amount of water received by Pakistan as Pakistani allegations are that India is taking Pakistan's share.

If such an allegation was true then Pakistan would receive less water in totality - which is not the case.

The problem of the reduction in per capita availability of water in Pakistan is due to the heavy increase in Population.

What are you going on about? The fact that Pakistan's canal system is inefficient has nothing to do with the INFLOW of water coming in from the three rivers that the IWT gives to Pakistan!!! The Baglihar project is a completely separate and unrelated issue to whether or not canals in Pakistan are lined. The violation of the IWT on India's part will not go away just because Pakistan brick lines its canals. Two completely separate issues... please stay on topic.

The wastage of water is also a reason for the scarcity of water available to Pakistani Farmers.

Since the per capita availabilty is about One Third with the Population increasing from 34 Million in 1947 to 180 Million now should have a very great effect on the reduction of Water Availability.

Thus the Indian Authorities claim of "No Reduction in River Water Flow to Pakistan" stands.

 

[Hutchroy]

You forgot UK aid programmes for india
UK to scale back aid to India - India - The Times of India
And beggers calling others the same.....lame duck

Is the amount in Billions upon Billions of US Dollars?

 

[TechLahore]

If such an allegation was true then Pakistan would receive less water in totality - which is not the case.

Well, since you will not be the judge of how much water Pakistan was and is getting, debating this point in an orthogonal fashion and avoiding the main issue of dispute is pointless.

The IWT does not put a specific number on the flow to Pakistan, that as long as this number is met, everything is hunky dory. The parameters in the IWT are around India NOT storing more than 0.01 MAF. Which India is doing. That is a violation of the IWT and it would be a violation even if all the water in the world was flowing through to Pakistan. You continue to avoid this specific issue...

The wastage of water is also a reason for the scarcity of water available to Pakistani Farmers.

It may be, but that is not what is being debated here. And it is certainly not what Pakistan is charging India with. Improving irrigation and distribution is a constant - it always needs to be done. But whatever the state of in-country distribution, it does not provide India with the rationale to violate the IWT.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Is the amount in Billions upon Billions of US Dollars?

First of all change UK flag and put indian flags must be hard or r u ashamed?
Look at our economy till 2005?After this war Inshallah all will get fine.
Plus dont talk like a snob when every third indian is living under 50 cents a day.

 

[TechLahore]

Is the amount in Billions upon Billions of US Dollars?

Ah! So now that we've provided examples of aid being given to India you've made it a volume argument

Yes, taken over time it is billions upon billions of dollars. Just this one instance with the ADB I pointed out was $2.6B. And India has been receiving aid from international institutions since partition, in addition to food aid from UK and USA - and if I remember correctly, Canada too. Combined with aid from Russia and numerous other countries.

 

[Hutchroy]

I don't want to be rude and call it 'begging' but China did just shoot down $2.6B in assistance that India had requested from the ADB.

When Pakistan borrows, Pakistan is poor and when India borrows, India is rich?

China blocks £2 billion in aid to India - Telegraph

As per the following link, India has also been receiving food aid from the US:

How U.S. Food Aid Policies Perpetuate Poverty - India Currents

And this is not a recent phenomenon. India has relied on US food aid since the past many decades as this NY Times article from the '60s will demonstrate:

Report Says U.S. Food Aid To India Is Now a 'Monster' - Free Preview - The New York Times

So did India jump up and down and "Beg, Beg and Beg?"

Regarding Food Aid from USA : PL480 Aid is paid in Local Currency which is then used by the USA for its own "Purposes" in the Country to which PL480 Aid has been provided.

 

[Hutchroy]

Ah! So now that we've provided examples of aid being given to India you've made it a volume argument

Yes, taken over time it is billions upon billions of dollars. Just this one instance with the ADB I pointed out was $2.6B. And India has been receiving aid from international institutions since partition, in addition to food aid from UK and USA - and if I remember correctly, Canada too. Combined with aid from Russia and numerous other countries.

The ADB Aid would have been repaid like all Debts repaid by India.

India has never asked for Debt Forgiveness as has been begged by many Countries which are far far Richer than India.

 

[TechLahore]

So did India jump up and down and "Beg, Beg and Beg?"

.

Ha ha ha... why are you getting so frustrated? India has "begged" as much as any other country has "begged". And I will remind you that I didn't initiate the use of this word, nor have I used it in context of India receiving aid. This has been a term you have chosen to use. Frankly, I think it is a rude term, whether used in context of India or Pakistan.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Tech dont reply to trolls next time.Its like banging your head in a wall.

 

[Hutchroy]

Ha ha ha... why are you getting so frustrated? India has "begged" as much as any other country has "begged". And I will remind you that I didn't initiate the use of this word, nor have I used it in context of India receiving aid. This has been a term you have chosen to use. Frankly, I think it is a rude term, whether used in context of India or Pakistan.

All Debts taken, asked or whatever by India have been "Re-paid".

When ADB refused to give the latest amount then India accepted the decision.

Even the Richest Economy - yes China - accepts World Food Programme "Food Aid".

BTW : To set the record straight I have never used the term "Beg or Begging" in respect of Pakistan.

 

[TechLahore]

The ADB Aid would have been repaid like all Debts repaid by India.

As will the IMF loan being given to Pakistan. And the US "Aid", aka reimbursements are actually money spent first and reimbursed later. So technically, we are the ones floating cash to the Americans...

In a nutshell, India is and has been getting aid from a large number of countries and institutions over decades and decades. Aid received from certain quarters, such as Japan, has actually increased recently.

CRS Report: China's Foreign Policy and "Soft Power" in South America, Asia, and Africa

India has never asked for Debt Forgiveness as has been begged by many Countries which are far far Richer than India.

This is an untruth.

Here is a reference:

However, all the members of the Aid India Consortium have joined in giving debt relief to India, and the United Kingdom has made debt refinancing loans totalling £50 million over the past six years. The World Bank is now studying India's aid and debt position and expects to produce further proposals for action by the consortium.

I am producing just one reference because that is enough to refute your assertion that India has "never" asked for debt forgiveness. Look around and you will find many more... I did.

INDIA: REFUGEE AID AND DEBT RELIEF (Hansard, 11 November 1971)