Egyptian Armed Forces

[Mamajama]

What do you guys think of BM-21 Grads on ships for amphibious landings? Russians use it for ships as well to soften the beach to allow landings of forces. Egypt produces Sakr rockets that can be used on ships.

 

[Gomig-21]

The Egyptian M2000 are not -5 or -9. So not possible to easily integrate MICA. MICA need a data link for mid course fine targeting. No such data link on Egyp M2000. The RDM radar of these M2000 can only follow one target...

And these M2000 are old. Not really interesting to upgrade them now. But it is possible.

The fate of the EAF's Mirage 2K lies pretty much with what happens with this supposed upcoming Italian deal which includes the 24 Typhoons AS WELL as France's counter for 24 Rafales (12 of those are included in the original EAF option which Egypt already elected to pick up but the two parties couldn't come up with a happy financial deal that worked well for both sides.) So their fate is intertwined in a series of events. The Italians offered the 24 Typhoons (which I think is the 2nd best case scenario) and then you fellas came out and said let's reopen the talks about the option for the additional 12 Rafales plus another 12 and maybe more. This was all the result of cooperation in Libya that fueled up the warming of Franco/Egyptian relations.

The additional Rafales is most certainly what the EAF wants primarily and is on the top of the list. Should some package deal work out, we'll not only see the Typhoons drop out of the Italian mega deal, but not sure what that makes of the 24 M-346 trainer jets that was also part of the Italian deal and if that was contingent on the purchase of the Typhoon as the trainer jets might've been a major factor strictly for the development of future Egyptian Typhoon pilots, or if they were to simply serve as a general purpose trainer even though the EAF has plenty of excellent trainers. I think the M-346s are an advanced trainer that would help greatly in the final stages of pilot development prior to them getting their wings to fly any of the western or even Russian aircraft.

So the M-346 is also tied into this whole affair with the Typhoons and the Rafales which ultimately will seal the fate of the EAF Mirage 2K. There are only 15 of them that are active, anyway. Hardly a force multiplier and like you mentioned, they're almost 40 years old and while are still relatively potent in their own right, especially after we got a great close-up look at a fully armed one during the Sisi's Red Line speech, they look like they can still blow up some great targets at a good distance as well as dogfight with the best of them.

But if France works in more Rafales, they'll be retired almost immediately. If the EAF can't work out a satisfactory deal for more Rafales, then they should and I hope they do decide to procure the Typhoons along with the M-346s and this scenario will also ensure the almost immediate retirement of the Mirage 2000s and so I don't see them hanging out much longer nor do I see them packaged in some sold deal like the 36 5s were with Pakistan.

 

[Gomig-21]

What do you guys think of BM-21 Grads on ships for amphibious landings? Russians use it for ships as well to soften the beach to allow landings of forces. Egypt produces Sakr rockets that can be used on ships.

An amphibious landing means the usage of the Mistrals without a doubt. So I think most of us are still wondering what they're doing and which way they're leaning in installing a CIWS for both LHDs. That seems to be a much bigger priority as they don't seem to be getting anywhere with that and the Avengers (which was and is a brilliant temporary setup) is still on the two ships and so that means that not only a missile defense system is not installed, but neither is a fast firing CIWS like the Phalanx or any other installed either.

Those two combined with what they've done with the satellite communications systems that the French removed or they weren't in there in the first place (can't imagine France selling Russia the French NATO SAT Comms systems lol) so I'm guessing there never was and the agreement was that Egypt was to use it's own satellite systems which are also part of the Italian mega deal package, even though Egypt already has its own Military satellites for military comms but we know nothing about the system being fully functional in the Mistral yet or not. And that is a SUPER critical aspect of those two ships. So between their defensive systems and Sat Comms, we need to know that those are taken care of and tested several times over prior to thinking about any type of amphibious landings.

Also, another important factor that needs to be considered for amphibious landings is the helo package. I know the EAF and EN have great helos between the attack versions and troop transport as well as logistical, but the maritime-specific attack helos that are supposed to equip the Mistrals are still not even put into a deal yet. Yes they have the 50 Ka-52 Nile Crocodiles, but those don't have the folding rotors so they can't be brought down below deck and so that means only 8 of them can be carried above deck. Now that number gets reduced because you need troop transport helos also as well as SAR helos and that latter of all of those has just been arriving in the AW-139s/149s that the EAF just ordered. So the SARs (and possibly light transport) are just arriving in Egypt and so training and all that stuff still has a long way to go before any well-planned amphibious landing can be performed at all.

So putting all of that together (and there is more too lol) it's hard to think of any neat artillery and ground softening pre-amphibious landing operations TBH. But it sounds and looks good. I believe there is already something similar in the Egyptian Navy ships.

 

[BON PLAN]

The fate of the EAF's Mirage 2K lies pretty much with what happens with this supposed upcoming Italian deal which includes the 24 Typhoons AS WELL as France's counter for 24 Rafales (12 of those are included in the original EAF option which Egypt already elected to pick up but the two parties couldn't come up with a happy financial deal that worked well for both sides.) So their fate is intertwined in a series of events. The Italians offered the 24 Typhoons (which I think is the 2nd best case scenario) and then you fellas came out and said let's reopen the talks about the option for the additional 12 Rafales plus another 12 and maybe more. This was all the result of cooperation in Libya that fueled up the warming of Franco/Egyptian relations.

The additional Rafales is most certainly what the EAF wants primarily and is on the top of the list. Should some package deal work out, we'll not only see the Typhoons drop out of the Italian mega deal, but not sure what that makes of the 24 M-346 trainer jets that was also part of the Italian deal and if that was contingent on the purchase of the Typhoon as the trainer jets might've been a major factor strictly for the development of future Egyptian Typhoon pilots, or if they were to simply serve as a general purpose trainer even though the EAF has plenty of excellent trainers. I think the M-346s are an advanced trainer that would help greatly in the final stages of pilot development prior to them getting their wings to fly any of the western or even Russian aircraft.

So the M-346 is also tied into this whole affair with the Typhoons and the Rafales which ultimately will seal the fate of the EAF Mirage 2K. There are only 15 of them that are active, anyway. Hardly a force multiplier and like you mentioned, they're almost 40 years old and while are still relatively potent in their own right, especially after we got a great close-up look at a fully armed one during the Sisi's Red Line speech, they look like they can still blow up some great targets at a good distance as well as dogfight with the best of them.

But if France works in more Rafales, they'll be retired almost immediately. If the EAF can't work out a satisfactory deal for more Rafales, then they should and I hope they do decide to procure the Typhoons along with the M-346s and this scenario will also ensure the almost immediate retirement of the Mirage 2000s and so I don't see them hanging out much longer nor do I see them packaged in some sold deal like the 36 5s were with Pakistan.

Italy made some moves recently too near the Turkish position. That and the fact that EF2000 role is already fulfilled by SU35 made another batch of Rafale the sole real option.
A second batch of Rafale was near the inking, but some financial problems and the fact that USA don't accept to sell SCALP (with a US component) to Egypt. Add to that a diplomatic hiatus during the President Macron viit in Cairo... Now that France is clearly in the Egyptian side vs Turkey, the fact that SCALP missile is now US component free : all seems clear for a second batch.

M2000 can't be sell without Paris agreement. In this case no more support, so a weapon without future. In case of a sell, I see Dassault purchasing it, refurbishing it for a sale to India.

 

[Mamajama]

An amphibious landing means the usage of the Mistrals without a doubt. So I think most of us are still wondering what they're doing and which way they're leaning in installing a CIWS for both LHDs. That seems to be a much bigger priority as they don't seem to be getting anywhere with that and the Avengers (which was and is a brilliant temporary setup) is still on the two ships and so that means that not only a missile defense system is not installed, but neither is a fast firing CIWS like the Phalanx or any other installed either.

Those two combined with what they've done with the satellite communications systems that the French removed or they weren't in there in the first place (can't imagine France selling Russia the French NATO SAT Comms systems lol) so I'm guessing there never was and the agreement was that Egypt was to use it's own satellite systems which are also part of the Italian mega deal package, even though Egypt already has its own Military satellites for military comms but we know nothing about the system being fully functional in the Mistral yet or not. And that is a SUPER critical aspect of those two ships. So between their defensive systems and Sat Comms, we need to know that those are taken care of and tested several times over prior to thinking about any type of amphibious landings.

Also, another important factor that needs to be considered for amphibious landings is the helo package. I know the EAF and EN have great helos between the attack versions and troop transport as well as logistical, but the maritime-specific attack helos that are supposed to equip the Mistrals are still not even put into a deal yet. Yes they have the 50 Ka-52 Nile Crocodiles, but those don't have the folding rotors so they can't be brought down below deck and so that means only 8 of them can be carried above deck. Now that number gets reduced because you need troop transport helos also as well as SAR helos and that latter of all of those has just been arriving in the AW-139s/149s that the EAF just ordered. So the SARs (and possibly light transport) are just arriving in Egypt and so training and all that stuff still has a long way to go before any well-planned amphibious landing can be performed at all.

So putting all of that together (and there is more too lol) it's hard to think of any neat artillery and ground softening pre-amphibious landing operations TBH. But it sounds and looks good. I believe there is already something similar in the Egyptian Navy ships.

Don't the French use Mistrals on their platform anyway? I mean maybe installing Pantsir-M is a possibility, but only maybe.

Russians will have foldable wing KA-50s soon probably by the date of their new helicopter carriers get in service that Egypt can buy and I would hope Egypt would buy radar carrying helicopters for picketing against anti ship missiles.

And yeah, communication satellites are necessary and I'm hoping that the Egyptian make a good deal with the Italians or others to buy satellites.

 

[Gomig-21]

Italy made some moves recently too near the Turkish position. That and the fact that EF2000 role is already fulfilled by SU35 made another batch of Rafale the sole real option.

Spoken like a true Frenchman! What role is that of the Typhoon which you think the Su-35 fulfills? Are you suggesting the Typhoon is a heavy, air superiority fighter? That's amazing that you would think the EF2000's capabilities would come close to those of the Su-35. That's giving the EF2000 a lot of props for sure.

A second batch of Rafale was near the inking, but some financial problems and the fact that USA don't accept to sell SCALP (with a US component) to Egypt. Add to that a diplomatic hiatus during the President Macron viit in Cairo... Now that France is clearly in the Egyptian side vs Turkey, the fact that SCALP missile is now US component free : all seems clear for a second batch.

Have you heard about this new "talks in progress" between France and Greece for 18 Rafales? Just saw it on Twitter but not sure of the veracity.

M2000 can't be sell without Paris agreement. In this case no more support, so a weapon without future. In case of a sell, I see Dassault purchasing it, refurbishing it for a sale to India.

If giving them back to you makes the deal for the new 24 Rafales complete, so be it. No issues with that at all and that's exactly what I was saying, that the fate of the M2Ks was mostly hinged on any new Rafale deal. Also would love to see more integration of HMCS with these new Rafales but no Trojan systems or anything tied to Israeli industries. And there are several other excellent options out there but it seems Dassault is only working with the Trojan system which they offered in the Qatari and Indian Rafales and of course, the EAF wanted nothing to do with any of that. However, I think the EAF should have a clause in this next contract that not only are the meteors guaranteed, but that there is a willing to allow the EAF to integrate one of the other HMCS available in the market to all of its Rafales.

 

[Mamajama]

It isn’t deployed yet, SD Arabia says that there is a chance we can see it in EDEX 2020. With a capacity of 8 crews, made for amphibious assault and airdrop it can also be provided to the paratroopers.

It’s a modified one, pretty much a defensive upgrade to counter ATGMs and RPGs. What I think the army needs is ST-100s because Egypt has had problems with militants on all its land borders, the ST-100 is the really good for the situation nowadays, tested in Egypt and the US for pretty much all types of terrain in the MENA and has good bullet resistance, IED resistance and is capable of having many avionics/weapons including a gun that can be controlled from inside decreasing the risk of exposure to fire. The Sinai 200 excels in amphibious assault only IMO.

It may be a modified copy in mein opinion, Egypt can produce most of the optical components for this vehicle and the hull and inside should be very easy with an experienced company that produced the M1A1 and M88 Herclues bodies. Tracks and roadwheels come from BMP-1 or BMP-2 but with a shortened body and engine is a lot stronger.

Add a BM-3 Shurm turret which ist licensed and make it airdroppable from IL-76 and amphibous and it will be a much better platform than an airdropped jeep or amphibious humvee with much more protection and firepower.

 

[Gomig-21]

Don't the French use Mistrals on their platform anyway?

What do you mean? I may be misunderstanding you so I apologize for that but the LHD itself is called the Mistral. But if you meant whether they use the Avenger system, the answer is no and not sure why the EN didn't want to have the French system installed instead of taking bear defenseless LHDs? The French system would've been just as good IMO.

I mean maybe installing Pantsir-M is a possibility, but only maybe.

I think that is what everyone was thinking because that was the Russian plan for them anyway. So we all thought and still think that is the way they'll eventually go but it's been almost 5 years now. These things should be fully armed and ready to go by now and there shouldn't be any kind of delay like this. Having the Avenger system is causing complacency IMO and slowing the full potential deployment capability of the 2 LHDs. I don't know how my other Egy Brothers feel about this, but this lagging on what I think is a very important issue is very frustrating to me. It's definitely not a financial issue as we see very well. So what's the problem?

Russians will have foldable wing KA-50s soon probably by the date of their new helicopter carriers get in service that Egypt can buy and I would hope Egypt would buy radar carrying helicopters for picketing against anti ship missiles.

Well, supposedly the plan, besides the Ka-52K (Katrans) attack helos was to have a few of these Ka27PS ASW/SAR and troop transport capable which was what Russia was going to use also when it was going to equip these Mistrals when she got them.

Currently the EN is using the Kaman SH-2G Super Seasprite for ASW with all it anti sub fighting equipment etc. So not sure if they will upgrade that count of buy something else with a much larger and newer naval fleet so augment that ever so critical role. They often work in tandem with the EN's Sea Kings.

So who knows what the EN is thinking ATM except we do know that they went out and bought 30 Augusta Westland from Italy, (24) AW-149 multi-military role helicopters + (8) AW-189 helicopters.

Supposedly this AW-149 is a medium-lift military helicopter which has multi-military roles as Combat SAR/CAS/SOF OPs/ISR/MEDEVAC as well as Armed Escort & Troops transportation.

So my guess is that we're going to see these on the Mistrals for at least troop transport and SAR roles.

And yeah, communication satellites are necessary and I'm hoping that the Egyptian make a good deal with the Italians or others to buy satellites.

Currently EGY military is using TIBA-1 communications satellite funded by Egypt and developed by Airbus and Thales Alenia Space (TAS) left the Airbus Defence and Space clean rooms in Toulouse. I believe it was launched late last year and is in orbit for the next 15 years.

Besides this used strictly for military comms from what I understand is also Egypt has EgyptSat-1 and EgyptSat-2 are remote earth-sensing satellites developed by Egypt and Ukraine and Russia also put into orbit originally by the Ukraine but I believe EgySat-2 was put into orbit by a Russian co. if I'm not mistaken. But interesting joint effort in the production of the two satellites.

So the military coms should be all set at the moment or being integrated and worked into Tiba-1 from most likely another remote slot that was being temporarily used. Egypt has actually reserved an orbiting slot for a while many years ago but missed the deadline to launch a satellite to be able to use it. But because of extenuating circumstances, the slot was allowed to be kept by Egypt through Geneva because much of the fault for getting the satellite up into orbit was not Egypt's fault. So I think we caught a huuuuge break there. You can imagine what a prime, satellite orbiting slot is worth nowadays?

 

[ARCH٤R]

A second batch of Rafale was near the inking, but some financial problems and the fact that USA don't accept to sell SCALP (with a US component) to Egypt.

Actually I believe Egypt has SCALP missiles, I have no photo or solid proof but someone who met a delegation from Dassault did, the figure is ~50 at least and the Egyptian Rafale is the F3 standard - which they believe has a better ‘avionics outfit’ than anything else in the region (thus the whole world). I believe Egypt is waiting for the F4 standard before pressing the Enter button @Gomig-21. Add to that Egypt is pushing for the best naval deal it can get from Italy and/or France (possibly even Germany, the F-125s).

It may be a modified copy in mein opinion, Egypt can produce most of the optical components for this vehicle and the hull and inside should be very easy with an experienced company that produced the M1A1 and M88 Herclues bodies. Tracks and roadwheels come from BMP-1 or BMP-2 but with a shortened body and engine is a lot stronger.

Add a BM-3 Shurm turret which ist licensed and make it airdroppable from IL-76 and amphibous and it will be a much better platform than an airdropped jeep or amphibious humvee with much more protection and firepower.

View attachment 665053

I’ll put my 2 cents; Egypt has a good national optics industry and IMUT has a good potential when it comes to systems, we’ll see how it’ll go with the ST-100 when ATGMs and loitering munition get added, if it succeeds then the chance of having a decent Sinai 200 would be realistic and worth the money IMO.

Have you heard about this new "talks in progress" between France and Greece for 18 Rafales? Just saw it on Twitter but not sure of the veracity.

I think that’s on the table, and it could make Greece flush the F-35 down the toilet...

 

[The SC]

What do you mean? I may be misunderstanding you so I apologize for that but the LHD itself is called the Mistral. But if you meant whether they use the Avenger system, the answer is no and not sure why the EN didn't want to have the French system installed instead of taking bear defenseless LHDs? The French system would've been just as good IMO.



I think that is what everyone was thinking because that was the Russian plan for them anyway. So we all thought and still think that is the way they'll eventually go but it's been almost 5 years now. These things should be fully armed and ready to go by now and there shouldn't be any kind of delay like this. Having the Avenger system is causing complacency IMO and slowing the full potential deployment capability of the 2 LHDs. I don't know how my other Egy Brothers feel about this, but this lagging on what I think is a very important issue is very frustrating to me. It's definitely not a financial issue as we see very well. So what's the problem?



Well, supposedly the plan, besides the Ka-52K (Katrans) attack helos was to have a few of these Ka27PS ASW/SAR and troop transport capable which was what Russia was going to use also when it was going to equip these Mistrals when she got them.

Currently the EN is using the Kaman SH-2G Super Seasprite for ASW with all it anti sub fighting equipment etc. So not sure if they will upgrade that count of buy something else with a much larger and newer naval fleet so augment that ever so critical role. They often work in tandem with the EN's Sea Kings.

So who knows what the EN is thinking ATM except we do know that they went out and bought 30 Augusta Westland from Italy, (24) AW-149 multi-military role helicopters + (8) AW-189 helicopters.

Supposedly this AW-149 is a medium-lift military helicopter which has multi-military roles as Combat SAR/CAS/SOF OPs/ISR/MEDEVAC as well as Armed Escort & Troops transportation.

So my guess is that we're going to see these on the Mistrals for at least troop transport and SAR roles.

Currently EGY military is using TIBA-1 communications satellite funded by Egypt and developed by Airbus and Thales Alenia Space (TAS) left the Airbus Defence and Space clean rooms in Toulouse. I believe it was launched late last year and is in orbit for the next 15 years.

Besides this used strictly for military comms from what I understand is also Egypt has EgyptSat-1 and EgyptSat-2 are remote earth-sensing satellites developed by Egypt and Ukraine and Russia also put into orbit originally by the Ukraine but I believe EgySat-2 was put into orbit by a Russian co. if I'm not mistaken. But interesting joint effort in the production of the two satellites.

So the military coms should be all set at the moment or being integrated and worked into Tiba-1 from most likely another remote slot that was being temporarily used. Egypt has actually reserved an orbiting slot for a while many years ago but missed the deadline to launch a satellite to be able to use it. But because of extenuating circumstances, the slot was allowed to be kept by Egypt through Geneva because much of the fault for getting the satellite up into orbit was not Egypt's fault. So I think we caught a huuuuge break there. You can imagine what a prime, satellite orbiting slot is worth nowadays?

Cairo earlier declined the offer to furnish the Mistral helicopter carriers with European or American helicopters. Russia later offered Egypt modern armament, electronic warfare and communications systems for installing them on the Mistrals.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/ar...n-reach-deal-on-egypt’s-mistral-carriers.html

 

[Gomig-21]

Cairo earlier declined the offer to furnish the Mistral helicopter carriers with European or American helicopters. Russia later offered Egypt modern armament, electronic warfare and communications systems for installing them on the Mistrals.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/release/3/196828/russia-hopes-to-soon-reach-deal-on-egypt’s-mistral-carriers.html

And that's pretty much my point, that was almost 2 years ago and the Mistrals have been active with the Egyptian Navy since what, late 2016? 4 years now and no defensive system yet? I realize they're trying to package the whole deal into one with the helos etc., and while they're at it, they've been able to agree on 50 Ka-52s, 50 MiG-35s, 7 batteries of S-300VM, our favorite stealth radars, satellites, Su-35SEs and so on and yet this ever so important element is still without any official resolution.

I'm just pointing out to mamajama that before we even consider any amphibious operations of any kind, since they would almost undoubtedly include both Mistrals, is that the two LHDs be completely operational from head to toe with tons of pre-invasion and amphibious landings exercises taken place as well as the helicopters effectiveness on and off deck and storage along with the CIWS systems and the COMMs and the hospital and the this and the that etc. etc. There is A LOT to have those at their tip-top readiness for any amphibious landing operation and frankly, they are not even close to any of that yet. They're not even ready for any at seas only operations, I'm afraid.

 

[ARCH٤R]

Between 22nd of July and 30th of August; 317 hideouts were destroyed, tens of terrorists killed, several soldiers killed or wounded.
Mind that Bir El Abd was evacuated displacing thousands.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1300119390961258496

And then I get this in my head: After all these years of Gaza blockade, co-ordination with Israel (intelligence wise) and terrorists killed over the years, what else can we do?
Even a wall is being built on the borders with the Gaza Strip...

 

[BON PLAN]

Have you heard about this new "talks in progress" between France and Greece for 18 Rafales? Just saw it on Twitter but not sure of the veracity.

a new source my dear.... In french. Use google translate !

L'hypothèse d'un achat d'avions Rafale par la Grèce refait surface - Zone Militaire

En 2008, le groupement d'intérêt économique composé de Dassault Aviation, Safran Aircraft Engines et Thales, avait ouvert un bureau à Athènes afin de

www.opex360.com

or a greek source ?

Πολεμική Αεροπορία: Το ζήτημα της απόκτησης Rafale είναι υπαρκτό - Defence Review

Το ζήτημα της απόκτησης μαχητικών Rafale πάντα ήταν στην εξοπλιστική ατζέντα της Πολεμικής Αεροπορίας η οποία γνώριζε εξ αρχής πως πρόκειται για μια ολοκληρωμένη σχεδίαση με σύγχρονες τεχνολογίες αιχμής και κυρίως με τέτοια επιλογή συνοδεύονταν από στρατηγικά όπλα κρούσης. Που όμως βρίσκεται το...

defencereview.gr

 

[BON PLAN]

Spoken like a true Frenchman! What role is that of the Typhoon which you think the Su-35 fulfills? Are you suggesting the Typhoon is a heavy, air superiority fighter? That's amazing that you would think the EF2000's capabilities would come close to those of the Su-35. That's giving the EF2000 a lot of props for sure.

EF was studied as mainly a pure air superiority fighter. The Su35 is at least that kind of beast.
Once you have F15 or SU27/20/25, no need of average EF2000.

 

[BON PLAN]

Actually I believe Egypt has SCALP missiles

NO. Mr Trump blocked the sale due to ITAR. Just a single component. Now replaced in the SCALP.