Egyptian Armed Forces

[Frogman]

@The Eagle ^

 

[The Eagle]

@WebMaster or any other moderators, could you kindly approve post #3403 or let me know what the issue is? I'm guessing because it's a long post? It's been in limbo for about 24 hours or so waiting for moderator approval. It's a reply to several points made by other members so it is a bit lengthy, sorry if that's the case. Thx.

Post approved. Starting line wasn't appropriate hence, removed. However, it is advised that these dedicated threads only be utilized for Armed Forces (Updates, News & Discussions). Hopefully, off-topic posts wouldn't be made.

@The Eagle ^

 

[Lord Of Gondor]

Maybe some Indian fellows can enlighten us a bit about that story?

The aircraft is still one of the most potent fighter type in the subcontinent. But as is the case with newer and highly complex aircraft, there will definitely be teething issues. MiG has had a lax approach towards India but it has changed with them establishing maintenance facilities in India to support the type.
India is the most experienced non CIS/Russian operator of the type as it was the first export customer of the MiG 29 and is the launch customer of the MiG 29K and MiG might have realised that.
Here is a good video about the type in the Navy:

Coming to the issues of which there are many

The Indian Navy's primary fighter operating from the aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya faces operational deficiencies due to defects in engines, airframes and fly-by-wire systems, according to a report by India's autonomous auditor, the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG).

Arun Prakash, who served as chief of the Indian Naval Staff, evaluated the aircraft in 1999 before the purchase from Russia. The retired admiral said: "There are the only two fighters — MiG-29K and Sukhoi-33 — in the world capable of operations from a Short Take-Off But Arrested Recovery, a system used for the launch and recovery of aircraft from the deck of an aircraft carrier like INS Vikramaditya. There is no better fighter available to replace the MiG-29K."

However, Prakash is highly critical of what he called the "lethargy" by the Russians in the manufacturing and maintenance of the aircraft.

On problems with the engine, the CAG report said: "Since induction in February 2010, 40 engines (62 percent) of twin-engined MiG-29K have been withdrawn from service/rejected due to design-related defects."

Additionally, the serviceability of the warplanes was low, ranging from 21.30 percent to 47.14 percent, according to the report.

"The roots of these problems (serviceability and defects) lie in the extremely poor quality control in the Russian military-industrial complex and dismal product support being rendered by the Russian industry to the Indian Navy for the past 25 years," Prakash said. "This is in spite of the fact that the development of the MiG-29K has been totally funded by the Indian Navy."

On how the aircraft could affect combat worthiness of the Navy, the CAG report said: "The service life of MiG -29K is 6,000 hours or 25 years (whichever is earlier) but the deficiencies and snags in the aircraft is likely to reduce the operational life of the aircraft, thereby affecting combat worthiness of [the Indian] Navy."

Detailing the defects of the engine on MiG-29K, the report noted that "even as the RD-33 MK engine (mounted on MiG-29K) was considered an advancement over the engine of the MiG-29K, its reliability remains questionable."


"The engine-design defects should be rectified with the utmost urgency at the Russians' cost," Prakash said. "Any respectable company, conscious of its reputation, would attend to this. But the oligarchs who control the Russian military-industrial complex are too brazen, for two reasons: (a) they know that India has not choice and (b) they are confident that Indian politicians will never turn the screw on them."

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...india-mig-29k-aircraft-navy-defects/88510782/
http://www.janes.com/article/62063/indian-navy-reports-problems-with-russian-carrier-aircraft
Some notable appearances in the press:
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/when...mig-fighter-plane-stands-in-warehouse-1405266
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...-takeoff-at-vizag-naval-station/1/751348.html
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...at-mangaluru-airport/articleshow/57396206.cms

And the Harriers have been retired:

And keep the thread going, the images shared are bloody awesome!

 

[DavidSling]

I think it's fair to identify the elephant in the room and get it out of the way - Israel. Despite the treaty and the unlikely-hood of war breaking out with it because of that, the reality is, it's the standard for a perceived, regional enemy. That's out of the way.

Some would argue that's a terrible way to look at it and it shouldn't be done like that and that Egypt should identify its actual, ground needs that pertain to its defense and the conventional way that a typical, strong, regional power should build its military on and not base it on that of confronting a single and potential enemy which it has a peace agreement with. Well, yes, that's how it should be done but by structuring it relative to that force - and let's admit it - it's against a qualitatively and quantitatively superior potential enemy's forces (with perhaps the exception of the navies), the standard is elevated. It raises the bar, sets higher expectations which follow with better results. It's in fact the best way to do it. If the standard is based on the strongest adversary in the region, then the others are taken care of by default, including power projection. So it's not a negative way of thinking.



LOL! That was good. I never realized the level of your disdain towards the MiG-29/35 until I pointed out the unfortunate, double canopy use for the single-seater and how they just fill the backseat with covers and other things. Dassault actually does something similar with the Rafale, but the back section is a bit smaller in glass surface area in the EM than the DM. At least they make an effort, considering the canopy is a huge hindrance to smaller RCS. It seems like such a shameful shortcut with the MiG that only benefits the production line and not the operator.

I'm glad it prompted you to express your dislike about the EAF buying the MiG-35 because it opens the doors to discuss this very important issue in the EAF. Not only the overall network incompatibility issues it creates, but the actual deficiencies of that particular aircraft. You mentioned the engines at the time and it reminded me of an article I read regarding the Indian Air Force and it referred to a retired admiral or general or some high level delegate who was interviewed about the RDMK-33 in the Indian MiG-29K and he said that they had MAJOR issues with it. He said the maintenance on that engine was overwhelming because they had a lot of failures in several components. He really tore it apart and I can't remember if it was due to the high salt and moisture content that naval aircraft need to endure in that environment, but he also brought up the RDMK-33's propensity for corrosion and other issues. He was basically VERY disappointed with the quality of that Russian engine. In fairness, the current admiral reciprocated and said that all of that was untrue and never happened. Hard to tell at this point what's true or not, but it raises concerns as to how reliable the RDMK-33 really is and what trouble can be expected of it. MiG corp did claim that this current version that's going in the Egyptian birds is a "slightly improved" one but then, MiG has claimed a lot of things that haven't been true such as the availability of the AESA radar etc. We can take that Indian story about the engines for whatever it's worth, but it's something to be weary of. Maybe some Indian fellows can enlighten us a bit about that story?

Another thing to be a bit concerned about (or at least keep an eye on) is the fact that we are the first customer of this particular variant. Does that mean that we should expect some, maybe a lot of bugs that will show up and go wrong and will need to be worked out? Or is it really similar to the K so maybe all the bugs have already been worked out, for the most part?


No question about it. This brings me back to Israel -- their airforce consists of all-American fighters and only American fighters and the BEST American fighters, in very large numbers. F-16's, F-15's and now F-35's. There's no way to make that any more network-centric. Not only network compatibility, but weapons are easily interchangeable between all 3 platforms. Being able to bring the entire airforce into a single network is critical for obvious reasons. There's no disconnect, which simply loses wars. Your point is about as accurate and relevant as can be.

Is fairness and on the other hand, to look at the situation from all angles, the EAF has been in a conundrum since 1980 because of having no choice but to settle for a relatively impotent F-16 as the front-line fighter. Being the 4th largest operator of that fighter and being forced to have the weakest form of it, is truly a shame. The CISMOA and whether it would've had an impact on the AIM-120 being part of the fleet armament, or not, is another matter. But the fact the fighter was neutered from the start put the EAF in a horrible and almost impossible position to get out of. Not having BVR capabilities in the true sense of BVR range has been a back-breaker. It reduces the air force's capability by 1/2! There's no other way to put it. In comes the Rafale and the MICA IR, but in reality, as we all know, it's just a glorified version of the AIM-7 Sparrow so we haven't really jumped into the true BVR world! It's a small improvement but we're still neutered. In comes the MiG-35 and maybe this is the plus-factor in the Russian aircraft? Was this the only way to get true BVR - since now there is something close to the AIM-120 in the R-77?



You forgot T-REX. This is exactly what the next purchase needs to be. We're never getting the F-35, let's just agree on that. What's the next, best option? They need to start negotiating with the Russians to get in line for the PAK-FA. There's no such thing as "we're not in a hurry to get a 5th gen fighter," that attitude is what causes you to fall behind amidst everyone around you. Terrible way of thinking IMO. If not for that, for the fact that the waiting list will only grow as time goes on and that puts you even further behind.



Spot on. The BVR issue is the only positive I see in a scenario where this dual, parallel fleet is needed and becomes no option. But like you said, it creates that separate grouping of forces which is a very dangerous thing and will most certainly guarantee losing the air battle against a capable enemy UNLESS you have the best way of integrating everything.

Here's some food for thought; let's take the Indian Air Force as a comparison for the sake of this "two-party" airforce argument. Through the last few decades, they've operated with probably the most diverse group of fighters on the planet.

Breaking it down:
Russian:
MiG-21 Bis
MiG-29/MiG-29K
MiG-27
Su-30MKI
British:
Jaguar
Sea Harrier (I think they still operate them)
French:
Mirage 2000
Rafale (upcoming)
Indigenous:
Tejas
They also use the Israeli Harpy UAVC as an attack fighter bringing back the point of prioritizing UAVC's.

So how do the Indians incorporate all these different makes and models into a network centric environment? They update/upgrade their avionics suites and supplement it with a solid, high quality mixture of GC and AWACS.

It can be done, but not with 6/8 E2-C Hawkeyes and current GC networks. Not only does all of this need to be on the same playing field in terms of awareness and cooperation, but the air defense branch also needs to be an intricate part of that network so that both are being used effectively at the same time without any confusion. Unlike the old days where the AD would need to be shut down for the aircraft to operate and vice-versa. That's a killer and can never be considered in today's warfare. Both need awareness and real time fighting capabilities and being able to quickly and easily identify friend or foe and relate that information in real time which brings in a whole other dimension in having adequate, all-around IFF systems capabilities. This is such a large and important factor that tends to get overlooked because it's easier to focus on the sexy fighters alone. It's not as simple as some might think. So what think, how do the Indians do it?



And TBH, the Mirage 2000 is really not an effective platform with any real bite, considering it's low numbers (18?) and it's age and tech and weapon's sweet. It's handicapped and should only be considered as an escort fighter of some sort.



SC, no Su-35, 45, 65 or anything like that pleeeeeeaaaaaase bruh! We need to stay away from that big hulk as much as possible! If the MiG-35 wasn't already in the mix, I would say fine, but not as the current situation stands. There's really no advantage whatsoever despite how most feel about that AC. What needs to be done is a push to acquire the PAK-FA or the T-50 or the Su-50 whatever it's real name is. It's time to think about a 5th generation and that's really the smartest option at this point considering there's no American one and a Chinese one puts us back into the excessive mix we're trying to avoid since the MiG-35 is already here. It's time to jump up to 5th gen and not stay below that for number's sake, like you and Frogman basically indicated. It's 5th gen time and also a major time to really start focusing on UACV's, in a big way. Sorry for the long post!

Sorry for offtopic, but Israeli/U.S jet fighter are hybrid machines.
While from the outside, they look like mostly common U.S fighter, from the inside they contain Israeli weapons,softwares, electronic warfare, idf network communication which connect them to wide range of information from ground, naval and other air assets and many other systems.
Now, if we'll take the Israeli case to the egyptian air force, beside from the logistic nightmare having multiple platforms from many countries, they'll need to integrate advance local systems.

F16I (sufa ) for example
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/f-16i/
http://israeli-weapons.com/weapons/aircraft/f-16i/F-16I.html

 

[Frogman]

It raises the bar, sets higher expectations which follow with better results. It's in fact the best way to do it. If the standard is based on the strongest adversary in the region, then the others are taken care of by default, including power projection.

Agree.

Maybe some Indian fellows can enlighten us a bit about that story?

Another thing to be a bit concerned about (or at least keep an eye on) is the fact that we are the first customer of this particular variant. Does that mean that we should expect some, maybe a lot of bugs that will show up and go wrong and will need to be worked out? Or is it really similar to the K so maybe all the bugs have already been worked out, for the most part?

The Indians have had problems with all their Russian fighters. Russian quality control during the build process and follow on support is crap compared to Western standards.

Egypt will have problems with already "proven" systems as well as the new kit they ordered on the 29/35.

. In comes the Rafale and the MICA IR, but in reality, as we all know, it's just a glorified version of the AIM-7 Sparrow so we haven't really jumped into the true BVR world! It's a small improvement but we're still neutered. In comes the MiG-35 and maybe this is the plus-factor in the Russian aircraft? Was this the only way to get true BVR - since now there is something close to the AIM-120 in the R-77?

I think you're vastly underestimating the MICA IR and ERs capabilities compared to the AIM-120.

This is one thing I simply refuse to accept at face value. The Egyptian Armed Forces and the political administration have done themselves zero favours in attempting to lift restrictions on US equipment.

Egypt has racked up the most third party violations of any country. Not done much there to prove it can or should be trusted with sensitive kit.

The political administration has repeatedly allowed chances to go to waste. Serious participation in Afghanistan during the initial invasion and with ISAF, participation in the NFZ/overthrow in Libya, and operations against the Islamic State/AQ in Libya/Iraq/Syria could have been used to cement a strategic relationship between the two countries.

Now I know some would be uneasy with this but think about it. All of them were carrying out UNSC mandates and were ultimately in the interest of Egypt as part of the GWOT. Ghaddafi was a pariah who had supported terrorist organisations that repeatedly targeted Egypt although this seems to have been forgotten in a bout of national amnesia.

If there was participation an argument could be made that the US is allowing Egyptian forces to operate within the same AO with its arm tied behind its back and thus endanger coalition troops as a whole. It would also go a long way in Congress as many in the US are asking what US aid itself is getting them in return, of course many don't understand why it is nessecary but if we're seen to be fighting side by side then I dare say it wouldn't be questioned at all.

I would point to the UAE deploying to all three of the above and still being able to maintain an independent foreign policy.

What's the next, best option? They need to start negotiating with the Russians to get in line for the PAK-FA

PAK-FA or participate in one of the many fifth gen projects going on right now.

So what think, how do the Indians do it?

They don't, not really. They operate an insane number of types in all departments to support this mixture. Their two or three tone air force does make a bit of sense when you look at their history and threat perceptions.

And TBH, the Mirage 2000 is really not an effective platform with any real bite, considering it's low numbers (18?) and it's age and tech and weapon's sweet. It's handicapped and should only be considered as an escort fighter of some sort.

Back in the day. It's at the end of its life now even though it still has some utility.

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Egyptian Army Special Forces takes part in Annual Warrior Competition at KASOTC Jordan with two teams.

 

[MICA]

@Frogman

 

[Frogman]

@Frogman

View attachment 394357

They've done the numbering wrong. It should be 55555555555555555!

 

[Hell NO]

@Frogman

View attachment 394357

What is dead may never die.
And Mr X has no end.

 

[Gomig-21]

Post approved. Starting line wasn't appropriate hence, removed.

Thanks. Just to clarify, that first line was used in the context of a metaphor, along the lines of a term of endearment. It was not to be taken literally the way it was written. That's not how the saying goes. There were no profanities or insults of any kind and I've seen countless other posts on the forum that explicitly use actual profanity, which this was nowhere even close. I'm a little perplexed but I respect any moderator's decision. Just find it strange and a bit inconsistent.

However, it is advised that these dedicated threads only be utilized for Armed Forces (Updates, News & Discussions). Hopefully, off-topic posts wouldn't be made.

Well, it would be nice to clarify if any of the above was related to my post or are you referring of another one? I ask because that entire post was nothing but a discussion of points related to the Egyptian armed forces. If you're referring to the first line, it would be a shame if there can't be some friendly and loose interactions here and there.

 

[MICA]

New patrol police cars

 

[The Eagle]

Thanks. Just to clarify, that first line was used in the context of a metaphor, along the lines of a term of endearment. It was not to be taken literally the way it was written. That's not how the saying goes. There were no profanities or insults of any kind and I've seen countless other posts on the forum that explicitly use actual profanity, which this was nowhere even close. I'm a little perplexed but I respect any moderator's decision. Just find it strange and a bit inconsistent.



Well, it would be nice to clarify if any of the above was related to my post or are you referring of another one? I ask because that entire post was nothing but a discussion of points related to the Egyptian armed forces. If you're referring to the first line, it would be a shame if there can't be some friendly and loose interactions here and there.

System picks the line/words automatically and put same for moderation/approval. I just explained the reason that how post went into approval queue and did not mean that you offended directly however, such words are not ethical though system hides the same from others to view/read before approval.

Rest about others using profanity etc by misspelling words, even sometimes to dodge the system, kindly report such posts wherever you find and will be taken care by Mods.

The second part is mentioned in general that anyone else may not take this discussion of you two, for further derailing. There was no such intention of shaming or blaming at all. Carry on your discussion on topic and enjoy.

Regards,

 

[Gomig-21]

System picks the line/words automatically and put same for moderation/approval. I just explained the reason that how post went into approval queue and did not mean that you offended directly however, such words are not ethical though system hides the same from others to view/read before approval.

Rest about others using profanity etc by misspelling words, even sometimes to dodge the system, kindly report such posts wherever you find and will be taken care by Mods.

The second part is mentioned in general that anyone else may not take this discussion of you two, for further derailing. There was no such intention of shaming or blaming at all. Carry on your discussion on topic and enjoy.

Regards,

Got it. Makes sense, thank you.

The aircraft is still one of the most potent fighter type in the subcontinent. But as is the case with newer and highly complex aircraft, there will definitely be teething issues. MiG has had a lax approach towards India but it has changed with them establishing maintenance facilities in India to support the type.
India is the most experienced non CIS/Russian operator of the type as it was the first export customer of the MiG 29 and is the launch customer of the MiG 29K and MiG might have realised that.
Here is a good video about the type in the Navy:

Coming to the issues of which there are many


http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...india-mig-29k-aircraft-navy-defects/88510782/
http://www.janes.com/article/62063/indian-navy-reports-problems-with-russian-carrier-aircraft
Some notable appearances in the press:
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/when...mig-fighter-plane-stands-in-warehouse-1405266
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...-takeoff-at-vizag-naval-station/1/751348.html
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...at-mangaluru-airport/articleshow/57396206.cms

And the Harriers have been retired:

And keep the thread going, the images shared are bloody awesome!

Thanks for responding with all that info. That was a great video. Indian pilot was excellent!

So the problems and issues were true. That's very worrisome, but not very surprising. Issues with not only the engines but with the FBW system is not a good combination, even with redundancy. That's a combination for a crash waiting to happen! Hopefully, these things have been worked out.

IIRC, there was also the issue of that large batch of R-73's or R-77's that deteriorated while in storage, right? IIRC, the Russians claimed the extensive humidity in India and alleged, improper climate control in the storage facilities were the contributing factors but the Indians said they were stored correctly. Egypt doesn't have the harsh humidity like India, but temperature is certainly a factor. Something to keep an eye out on with this Russian hardware.

The Indian variant of that MiG-29K is pretty much the same as the one Egypt is getting, aside from the deployable hook and maybe Israeli avionics you folks have in them, but essentially the same. It doesn't look like the K has the rear-mounted MAWS that the Egyptian MiGs do (at least I can't see it) but probably has some missile warning system. It has the same, sawtooth edge on the radar, that's nice.

I think you're vastly underestimating the MICA IR and ERs capabilities compared to the AIM-120.

How so? AIM-7 (depending on which variant) has a max. range of between 32km and 50km. MICA IR/ER have a max. range of 50KM. The latter has fire and forget and might have slightly better target acquisition capabilities from the RB-2E and it's homing and seekers might be a little better, but as far as range, it's not a great improvement, really.

This is one thing I simply refuse to accept at face value. The Egyptian Armed Forces and the political administration have done themselves zero favours in attempting to lift restrictions on US equipment.

Egypt has racked up the most third party violations of any country. Not done much there to prove it can or should be trusted with sensitive kit.

The political administration has repeatedly allowed chances to go to waste.

Typical, isn't it? I never understood the refusal to sign the CISMOA. It never made sense because why did they need to commit 3rd party infractions? Yekhrebethom w'bet abuhom. The benefit seems rather minuscule but certainly not inconsequential. And with whom, the Chinese? It made absolutely no sense! Hoping the one in charge now is different and much smarter.

PAK-FA or participate in one of the many fifth gen projects going on right now.

Chinese? With the MiGs already a done deal, seems like a better option to stick with the same source. I think any others are just way too far in their infantile stage.

 

[Lord Of Gondor]

IIRC, there was also the issue of that large batch of R-73's or R-77's that deteriorated while in storage, right? IIRC, the Russians claimed the extensive humidity in India and alleged, improper climate control in the storage facilities were the contributing factors but the Indians said they were stored correctly. Egypt doesn't have the harsh humidity like India, but temperature is certainly a factor. Something to keep an eye out on with this Russian hardware.

The R77 missiles had serious problems that led India to procure R27s in the interim.

Putting a big question mark on the performance of the Russian beyond visual range (BVR) air-to-air missiles with the Indian Air Force, an audit report by the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) has noted that nearly half the missiles tested either did not home in on targets during evaluations or failed ground tests because they were ageing much before their shelf lives.

The R 77 (RVV-AE) BVR missiles, fitted on board the Su-30 MKIs, MiG-29s and MiG-21 Bisons, were bought from Russia starting 1996. More than 2,000 missiles were ordered after the Kargil conflict and 1,000 have been delivered.

The CAG report, which will be released soon, is based on evaluations of the missile — its range is close to 90 km — during ground tests, inspections and test firing by the IAF. The missiles were bought at a "cost of Rs 2 crore each" but their failure during tests, says the CAG report, has affected the "operational preparedness" of the IAF.

"All figures in the report are based on air force records. Everything is verified by the IAF," an official said.

The problem with the missiles was referred to Russia and several teams subsequently visited India to rectify faults. IAF officers familiar with the missiles confirmed that this has been a problem area for long. "It is a known fact that the missiles do not work as we would like them to. Periodic tests that are carried out when they are in storage show their dismal state. We also have problems with spare parts," said a retired officer who was closely associated with the matter.

http://archive.indianexpress.com/ne...ave-homing-ageing-problems-cag-report/490055/
But the long term solution is coming online:
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/indigenous-seeker-for-astra-bvraam-cleared-trials.489830/

The Indian variant of that MiG-29K is pretty much the same as the one Egypt is getting, aside from the deployable hook and maybe Israeli avionics you folks have in them, but essentially the same. It doesn't look like the K has the rear-mounted MAWS that the Egyptian MiGs do (at least I can't see it) but probably has some missile warning system. It has the same, sawtooth edge on the radar, that's nice.

Interesting observation.
I think you're right.

 

[MICA]

Police cars

 

[Frogman]

Egyptian Special Forces soldier during the Annual Warrior Competition at KASOTC Jordan. Needs to sort out his helmet. The equipment is borrowed from KASOTC.