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Egypt, Turkey will join nuclear arms race

Egypt is actually way ahead of Turkey in terms of their own nuclear capability.

On March 21, Haaretz correspondent Ari Shavit wrote a powerful op-ed in the New York Times that began with this stark and stunning claim: "An Iranian atom bomb will force Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and Egypt to acquire their own atom bombs." Indeed, it has become axiomatic among Middle East watchers, nonproliferation experts, Israel's national security establishment, and a wide array of U.S. government officials that Iranian proliferation will lead to a nuclear arms race in the Middle East. President Barack Obama himself, in a speech to the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) last month, said that if Iran went nuclear, it was "almost certain that others in the region would feel compelled to get their own nuclear weapon."t

Multiple nuclear powers on a hair trigger in the Middle East — the most volatile region on earth, and one that is undergoing massive political change — is a nightmare scenario for U.S. and other security planners, who have never before confronted a challenge of such magnitude. But thankfully, all the dire warnings about uncontrolled proliferation are — if not exactly science fiction — further from reality than Shavit and Obama indicate. There are very good reasons for the international community to meet the challenge that Iran represents, but Middle Eastern nuclear dominoes are not one of them.

Theorists of international politics, when pondering the decision-making process of states confronted by nuclear-armed neighbors, have long raised the fears of asymmetric power relations and potential for nuclear blackmail to explain why these states would be forced to proliferate themselves.

This logic was undoubtedly at work when Pakistan embarked on a nuclear program in 1972 to match India's nuclear development program. Yet for all its tribulations, the present-day Middle East is not the tinderbox that South Asia was in the middle of the 20th century. Pakistan's perception of the threat posed by India — a state with which it has fought four wars since 1947 — is far more acute than how either Egypt or Turkey perceive the Iranian challenge. And while Iran is closer to home for the Saudis, the security situation in the Persian Gulf is not as severe as the one along the 1,800-mile Indo-Pakistani border.

Most important to understanding why the Middle East will not be a zone of unrestrained proliferation is the significant difference between desiring nukes and the actual capacity to acquire them. Of all three states that Shavit mentioned, the one on virtually everyone's list for possible nuclear proliferation in response to Iran is Turkey. But the Turkish Republic is already under a nuclear umbrella: Ankara safeguards roughly 90 of the United States' finest B61 gravity bombs at Incirlik airbase, near the city of Adana. These weapons are there because Turkey is a NATO member, and Washington's extended deterrence can be expected to at least partially mitigate Turkey's incentives for proliferation.

But even if the Turks wanted their own bomb, they have almost no capacity to develop nuclear weapons technology. Indeed, Turkey does not even possess the capability to deliver the 40 B61 bombs at Incirlik that are allocated to Turkish forces in the event of an attack, according to a report released by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

Given the changes in Turkey's foreign policy and its drive for global influence, it is conceivable that it will want to develop a Turkish version of France's force de frappe. However, Ankara would literally be starting from scratch: Turkey has no fissile material, cannot mine or enrich uranium, and does not possess the technology to reprocess spent fuel, all of which are required for nuclear weapons development.

This does not mean that Turkey is not interested in nuclear technology. Yet Ankara's efforts, to the extent that they exist beyond the two small-scale facilities in Ankara and Kucukcekmece, are directly related to the country's predicted energy shortfall resulting from the combination of a booming economy and growing population. The Turkish government has announced plans for civilian nuclear power to provide a quarter of Turkey's electricity needs by 2040. But even this three-decade timeline seems overly optimistic given the inchoate nature of Turkey's nuclear research.

The Egyptians are way ahead of the Turks in developing nuclear infrastructure, but don't expect to see the rise of a nuclear power on the Nile anytime soon. Egypt's nuclear program is actually older than India's, and was established only three years after Israel founded its Atomic Energy Commission. The Egyptian Atomic Energy Commission, which Gamal Abdel Nasser established in 1955, was exclusively dedicated to the development of peaceful atomic energy, though there were suspicions to the contrary. The 1956 nuclear cooperation agreement with the Soviet Union transferred to Egypt a 2-megawatt light water reactor that only produced small amounts of plutonium.

There were, of course, worrying signs about the Egyptian program — specifically Cairo's refusal to open the Inshas reactor to International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) inspection until after the peace treaty with Israel. Yet neither President Anwar Sadat nor his successor, the recently deposed Hosni Mubarak, ever made any effort to develop nuclear weapons technology. Sadat signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty in 1980, and Mubarak negotiated with the United States, France, Canada, and Germany for reactors and funding for Egypt's nuclear program. Nothing, however, ever came of these discussions because of the 1986 Chernobyl disaster — and the fact that the Egyptians never signed what is known as the Additional Protocol, which gives the IAEA enhanced powers to inspect nuclear facilities. Given the trajectory of Egypt's nuclear development, Cairo's rejection of the Additional Protocol had more to do with politics and sovereignty than plans for a clandestine weapons program.

Even after Mubarak's son Gamal triumphantly declared at the ruling party's 2006 convention that Egypt was going to ramp up its nuclear development program, it is hard to believe that Egyptians ever really took him seriously. Mubarak spent $160 million on consultants to tell him where to build 10 planned nuclear power plants, and selected a location along the Mediterraneanfor the first one. But each of the power plants comes with a price tag of $1.5 billion — and this is a country that in the last 15 months has spent approximately $26 billion of its $36 billion foreign currency reserves just to stay afloat.

One has to wonder about the pundits' warning of an Egyptian bomb: Have they even been to Egypt lately? If so, they might have a better grasp of Egypt's ramshackle infrastructure and the dire state of its economy, neither of which can support a nuclear program.

What about Saudi Arabia, then, the Sunni power that is on the tip of most analysts' tongues when it comes to Shiite Iran getting the bomb? Saudi Arabia has the cash to make large-scale investments in nuclear technology. Indeed, the only factor that makes warnings about Saudi proliferation — such as that delivered by former Ambassador the United States Prince Turki al-Faisal last year — even remotely credible is the resources the Saudis can muster to buy a nuclear program. Yet, while Riyadh can outfit itself with nuclear facilities with ease, it does not have the capacity to manage them. Mohamed Khilewi, a former Saudi diplomat, claims that the kingdom has been developing a nuclear arsenal to counter Israel since the mid-1970s — but he offers no substantiated evidence to support these claims.

In fact, the country has no nuclear facilities and no scientific infrastructure to support them. It's possible that Saudi Arabia could import Pakistanis to do the work for them. But while Saudis feel comfortable with Pakistanis piloting some of their warplanes and joining their ground forces, setting up a nuclear program subcontracted with Pakistani know-how — or even acquiring a nuclear device directly from Islamabad — poses a range of political risks for the House of Saud. No doubt there would be considerable international opprobrium. Certainly Washington, which implicitly extends its nuclear umbrella to Saudi Arabia, would have a jaundiced view of a nuclear deal between Riyadh and Islamabad. Moreover, it's one thing to hand the keys to an F-15 over to a foreigner, but letting them run your nuclear program is another matter altogether.

The concern about Saudi proliferation stems from fears that the kingdom would be forced to act if both Iran and Israel possessed a nuclear arsenal. "We cannot live in a situation where Iran has nuclear weapons and we don't," an unnamed Saudi official declared to the Guardian on the sidelines of a meeting between Prince Turki al Faisal and NATO officials in June 2011. "It's as simple as that. If Iran develops a nuclear weapon, that will be unacceptable to us and we will have to follow suit."

Yet given the fact that the Saudis have very little nuclear infrastructure to speak of, this kind of statement is little more than posturing designed to force the U.S. hand on Iran. Unlike similar warnings by Israel, which has the capacity to follow through on its threat to attack Iran's nuclear sites, Riyadh's rhetoric about acquiring nuclear weapons is empty. What is amazing is how many people take the Saudis seriously. If Khilewi had been telling the truth, now would seem like a good time for the Riyadh to give Tehran a look at what the royal family has been hiding in the palace basement all these years — but so far, we have only heard crickets.

Despite its flimsiness, it is hard to ignore the utility of the Middle East's nuclear dominoes theory. For those who advocate a preventive military strike on Iran, it provides a sweeping geopolitical rationale for a dangerous operation. But the evidence doesn't bear this argument out: If Washington decides it has no other option than an attack, it should do so because Iran is a threat in its own right, and not because it belives it will thwart inevitable proliferation in places like Turkey, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia. It won't, for the simple reason that there is no reason to believe these countries represent a proliferation risk in the first place.

Saudi Arabia simply doesn't have the industrial base needed (I don't want to start a flame war here so swallow your pride and don't start a war). Also the Americans will never in a billion years let them import the man power and expertise needed, nor they will allow the import of supplies needed. It's just a crazy and laughable thought.

Turkey is a democracy and its people won't allow nukes to be built. Turks won't risk their relationship with the West. Building light water reactors for electricity production is one thing, building heavy-water reactors or centrifuges is another.

Egypt is the only one that might be able to make nukes. However can it survive sanctions like Iran did? Most likely not. Egypt is already in trouble without sanctions. It also doesn't have the leadership it would need to steer the country through sanctions and the whole headache that comes with being an independent Middle Eastern country.

Does Iran have oil? - Yes. Does Egypt have oil? - Yes.

So yes, it can survive sanctions.
 
Ray, from time to time say something that makes sense.

Iran exports 2-3 million barrels a day, Egypt exports 163 thousand. Iran also has the second biggest gas reserves in the world (some say the biggest with the new discoveries in the Caspian Sea). Our industrial base is also stronger.

So no, Egypt can`t survive sanctions like Iran did.

And your wall of text is hardly readable. Highlight bits and pieces so people can read it or provide a summary.

Edit: the value of Iran's hydrocarbon exports were above 100 billion last year. Egypt's were around 8-10.
http://www.indexmundi.com/egypt/oil_exports.html
 
Does Iran have oil? - Yes. Does Egypt have oil? - Yes.

So yes, it can survive sanctions.
We have oil, but we aren't lying on a sea of oil. We can't export as much oil as Iran, so we won't make that much money from exporting oil. Also, our economy for the time being and for like at least 5 years to come won't be able to stand any sanctions. Mubarak wrecked Egypt.
Another thing, we share a border with Israel. It will be much easier for Israel to declare a war on Egypt than Iran. Again, the economical condition of Egypt right now won't allow such a war. If a war happens, Egypt could be in a serious economic disaster.
 
Iran - close to nuclear weapons. Has capacity to develop one at this stage.

Saudi Arabia - no capability + NPT.

Egypt - Mubarak once declared "Egypt can go nuclear in weeks". Whether that was a fluke or not is not known. But considering the fact that Egypt has a highly capable bio-warfare department, they may have the capability for nuclear weapons.

Turkey - Already under NATO nuclear sharing agreement though cannot use nukes without US permission. In my view, not capable of attaining nuke by itself because of diplomatic obligations (NPT).

Does Iran have oil? - Yes. Does Egypt have oil? - Yes.

So yes, it can survive sanctions.

No it cannot, at least not in the mid term. Consumption is higher than production. Increasing capacity over the short term is very difficult, especially when you are under sanctions.
 
Ray, from time to time say something that makes sense.

Iran exports 2-3 million barrels a day, Egypt exports 163 thousand. Iran also has the second biggest gas reserves in the world (some say the biggest with the new discoveries in the Caspian Sea). Our industrial base is also stronger.

So no, Egypt can`t survive sanctions like Iran did.

And your wall of text is hardly readable. Highlight bits and pieces so people can read it or provide a summary.


We have oil, but we aren't lying on a sea of oil. We can't export as much oil as Iran, so we won't make that much money from exporting oil. Also, our economy for the time being and for like at least 5 years to come won't be able to stand any sanctions. Mubarak wrecked Egypt.
Another thing, we share a border with Israel. It will be much easier for Israel to declare a war on Egypt than Iran. Again, the economical condition of Egypt right now won't allow such a war. If a war happens, Egypt could be in a serious economic disaster.

Aside from the bold, I may have to correct myself. I thought Egypt was much like Iran who makes much of it's revenues and GDP gains by oil. I didn't pay much attention to their economy.

Italy and the USA are the top export markets for Egyptian goods and services. In the Arab world, Egypt has the largest non-oil GDP as of 2005, which in 2012 will account to about less then 10% of their GDP.
 
Aside from the bold, I may have to correct myself. I thought Egypt was much like Iran who makes much of it's revenues and GDP gains by oil. I didn't pay much attention to their economy.

Italy and the USA are the top export markets for Egyptian goods and services. In the Arab world, Egypt has the largest non-oil GDP as of 2005, which in 2012 will account to about less then 10% of their GDP.
lol sorry, but you get on my nerves with your love of indicators. I always see you posting random indicators and basing a lot of your ideas on them. I hate indicators. They're only good for the most basic deductions cuz every country is completely unique.

Another thing I can't stand are long-term predictions.

Also, looking at Egypt's export figures, Turkey seems to be a bigger exporter of oil. Egypt needs contact with the outside world. Any sanction will destroy the fabric of the country.
 
"Saudi Arabia first opened a nuclear research center in the desert military complex at Al-Suleiyel, near Al-Kharj, in 1975. Saudi Arabia reportedly offered to pay for reconstruction of the Osirak-reactor, destructed by Israel on 06 June 1981. By at least 1985 Iraqi and Saudi military and nuclear experts were co-operating closely. Saudi nuclear scientists were sent to Baghdad for months of training."

Saudi Arabia Special Weapons

And this was back in 1975 and in the 80s. I leave you guys to believe what you want to believe.
 
"Saudi Arabia first opened a nuclear research center in the desert military complex at Al-Suleiyel, near Al-Kharj, in 1975. Saudi Arabia reportedly offered to pay for reconstruction of the Osirak-reactor, destructed by Israel on 06 June 1981. By at least 1985 Iraqi and Saudi military and nuclear experts were co-operating closely. Saudi nuclear scientists were sent to Baghdad for months of training."

Saudi Arabia Special Weapons

And this was back in 1975 and in the 80s. I leave you guys to believe what you want to believe.

It is no secret that saudi arabia elped pakistan's nuclear program. According to my sources (private), Pakistan has some nuclear devices stationed in saudi arabia for use if an unconventional war breaks out (with israel). The nukes are plutonium-based and their security/maintenance is provided by pakistani retired military officials who are part of a classified group.

Other than that, Riyadh indicated they will shift oil dependancy by building nuclear reactors in the following decades. They may acquire the capability (which is decades away) but dont forget you are a signatory to NPT.
 
"Saudi Arabia first opened a nuclear research center in the desert military complex at Al-Suleiyel, near Al-Kharj, in 1975. Saudi Arabia reportedly offered to pay for reconstruction of the Osirak-reactor, destructed by Israel on 06 June 1981. By at least 1985 Iraqi and Saudi military and nuclear experts were co-operating closely. Saudi nuclear scientists were sent to Baghdad for months of training."

Saudi Arabia Special Weapons

And this was back in 1975 and in the 80s. I leave you guys to believe what you want to believe.

Leave it to Mosa to leave the most illogical and pointless post in a thread where logic and facts are needed.

Iran had nuclear facilities in the 50's. What's your point?

Mosa, do you even know how nukes are made and what the process is? We're talking about a country where 1/3 of the nation are foreign workers!! That's unique in the world and it's something to be ashamed of.

It is no secret that saudi arabia elped pakistan's nuclear program. According to my sources (private), Pakistan has some nuclear devices stationed in saudi arabia for use if an unconventional war breaks out (with israel). The nukes are plutonium-based and their security/maintenance is provided by pakistani retired military officials who are part of a classified group.

Other than that, Riyadh indicated they will shift oil dependancy by building nuclear reactors in the following decades. They may acquire the capability but dont forget you are a signatory to NPT.
Those are light-water reactors if I'm not mistaken and they're useless for nukes. They will also be built by foreigners and the fuel will never see Saudi hands.
 
Well this would be ideal if Egypt , Saudia , Iran and Tukey get nuclear weapons and relations between them improve ...

Kick America out of the region and encourage mutual inter-dependence...
 
Leave it to Mosa to leave the most illogical and pointless post in a thread where logic and facts are needed.

Iran had nuclear facilities in the 50's. What's your point?

Mosa, do you even know how nukes are made and what the process is? We're talking about a country where 1/3 of the nation are foreign workers!! That's unique in the world and it's something to be ashamed of.
.

Actually your complete ignorance of maths is what is to be ashamed of. 23 Million vs 5.2 Million. Is that 1/3?? Come talk to me when you have the knowledge of the basic principles of maths.

Again shows that you lack any sort of "Facts and logic" in your head. But that is to be expected out of you.

]Those are light-water reactors if I'm not mistaken and they're useless for nukes. They will also be built by foreigners and the fuel will never see Saudi hands.

Which is why the US keeps begging to chip in and do a Complete ToT if we give up our right to enrich it and we are so far refusing right??
Saudi has no plans to give up right to enrich uranium

But then we sign with China instead:
Saudi Arabia, China Sign Nuclear Cooperation Pact - WSJ.com
 
wow you actually believe that you can enrich uranium lol
well good luck to you
 
Actually your complete ignorance of maths is what is to be ashamed of. 23 Million vs 5.2 Million. Is that 1/3?? Come talk to me when you have the knowledge of the basic principles of maths.
1.7 Million out of the 5.2 million are Egyptians, that is a huge %. I didn't know that!!
 

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