Egypt mulls JF-17 co-production

[DESERT FIGHTER]

I think this deal may proceed coz of several reasons:
1)F-16s are more expensive and lack BVR.
2)They cant be used against US lapdog isre..
3)Egyptians can trust a muslim country in time of need.
4)No spare part problems.
5)Its a new baby and upgrades like AESA,engine and other feaures will be offered in near future so yes it has the potential to be a true 4.5 gen fighter.

 

[DMLA]

IMO, Pakistan should look at any possibility of export. There is no doubt that jf-17 is a great aircraft in its class, the fact is that with time, we will be seeing more and more systems which are in direct competition with the thunder. Over the next few years (maybe a decade), the JF-17 may no longer be a viable option as a brand new purchase (atleast large orders). With new generation aircrafts and other aircrafts coming into the fray, it would surely face competition. Thus, it would make perfect sense for pakistan to collaborate with France et al. and come up with good export deals for countries like Egypt.

It makes no sense to loose such opportunities!

just my 2 cents!

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

IMO, Pakistan should look at any possibility of export. There is no doubt that jf-17 is a great aircraft in its class, the fact is that with time, we will be seeing more and more systems which are in direct competition with the thunder. Over the next few years (maybe a decade), the JF-17 may no longer be a viable option as a brand new purchase (atleast large orders). With new generation aircrafts and other aircrafts coming into the fray, it would surely face competition. Thus, it would make perfect sense for pakistan to collaborate with France et al. and come up with good export deals for countries like Egypt.

It makes no sense to loose such opportunities!

just my 2 cents!

Lol man if ur talking about LCA no chance.
In coming years it will be improved and hence planned Blocks will follow it soon and PAF will leave no stone unturned to keep up with the pace and we didnt plan to make a un viable fighter tht is to be disposed in just a few years.
Its here and its here to STAY..

Just like F-16 whose critics called it a underdog and un viable in few years and yet it turns to be one of the best jets and choice of 25 countries since mid 80s.

.Also if ur talking about 5th gen fighters it still a decade for them to be even inducted and they wont replace all 4th or 4.5 gen fighters as they wont be dozen a dime even for countries like USA.

 

[All-Green]

I think this deal may proceed coz of several reasons:
1)F-16s are more expensive and lack BVR.
2)They cant be used against US lapdog isre..
3)Egyptians can trust a muslim country in time of need.
4)No spare part problems.
5)Its a new baby and upgrades like AESA,engine and other feaures will be offered in near future so yes it has the potential to be a true 4.5 gen fighter.

Dear PN,

First of all F-16 are currently the best multirole platform at a medium cost, nothing competes in my mind.
Also they are BVR capable, I do not think that Egypt would buy BLK15s...newer F-16s boast hell of an avionics package that put a lot of fighters to shame.
F-16 has AESA provisioning as well...but cost naturally goes up with all the bells and whistles...

Spare part availability is a genuine point and will factor in the Egyptian decision making plus the reliability is accurate to the extent that Pakistan has not clash of interests with Egypt and is a friendly nation.

Let us not bring Israel into this, we all hope that the issues are resolved in middle east but let us not be emotional...let us be practical and businessmen like for a change.

Thanks...

 

[bc040400065]

Well it is great i think. we should go for this. it will be an image builder as well it will open new markets, people will see that thunder is right there now in the market and also local assembly is not something complete transfer of production and rights etc, it mean that u will sell them parts and they will assemble them as egypt has done will K8, they assembled it i think about 80 and we supplied them parts, as i read it there need is about 120 to 140 so even if the order is 48 we should go for it and try to get more order in future. Egypt needs to replace there F7 and mirrage5 and some other older types so this is a great opportunity we should grab it with both hands.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Flight of the pheonix

 

[mjnaushad]

I think we should go with the deal. But not transfer them Full technology. Some crucial things should stay with Pakistan. Also this TOT should have a clause that its for Egypt only. The planes manufactured in Egypt cannot be sold to other nations.

If these are included then i have no problem.

 

[DMLA]

Lol man if ur talking about LCA no chance.
In coming years it will be improved and hence planned Blocks will follow it soon and PAF will leave no stone unturned to keep up with the pace and we didnt plan to make a un viable fighter tht is to be disposed in just a few years.
Its here and its here to STAY..
Just like F-16 whose critics called it a underdog and un viable in few years and yet it turns to be one of the best jets and choice of 25 countries since mid 80s.

.Also if ur talking about 5th gen fighters it still a decade for them to be even inducted and they wont replace all 4th or 4.5 gen fighters as they wont be dozen a dime even for countries like USA.

I need not talk about LCA (why should I?) Being an Indian, I have been tought not to do so in a pakistani forum . Just to give you a few examples of systems which could very well compete with JF-17:

1) Mig-35
2) J-10A/B
3) F-16 blk52/60

Please remember that any upgrade package (example the french) will lead to an increase in the cost and thus eliminate much of the cost advantage.

I am not saying thunder will see no future sale. I am saying no country with a defence industry can afford to miss opportunities like these. If pakistan decides to not allow for certain things, there are other vendors out there who are more than willing to compensate the buyer adequately (be it ToT or discounted pricing!)

anyhow, I see my discussion here to be pointless.... all the best to thunder!

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Dear PN,

First of all F-16 are currently the best multirole platform at a medium cost, nothing competes in my mind.
Also they are BVR capable, I do not think that Egypt would buy BLK15s...newer F-16s boast hell of an avionics package that put a lot of fighters to shame.
F-16 has AESA provisioning as well...but cost naturally goes up with all the bells and whistles...

Spare part availability is a genuine point and will factor in the Egyptian decision making plus the reliability is accurate to the extent that Pakistan has not clash of interests with Egypt and is a friendly nation.

Let us not bring Israel into this, we all hope that the issues are resolved in middle east but let us not be emotional...let us be practical and businessmen like for a change.

Thanks...

1)The BVR is useless against egypts sole enemy thanks to USA and so a per agreement signed by egypt .
2)Egypt isnt a super rich country like saudis or others they cant buy F-16 with all the best goodies like AESA and others.
3)Nor do i think USA would even give them such technology coz of the israeli lobbists.
4)Im 100% for the egypt-pakistan deal in every field of life not just defence.

 

[bc040400065]

No , any assebly lines should not be setup on forign states

a) Second Assemly line should be setup in GWADAR area
b) Local population and pakitani engineers should be hired

The second assembly facility would fullfill Egyptian orders and also
it will assit to develop planes and upgrades for forigne orders ... while
our other facility will be exclusively for local productions.
c) Egyptian engineers should be welcomed to come and get trained
on limited skills for frist few years

If the order is for 200-300 JF17 Thunders, great its a great start to cooperation between Pakistan & Egypt - it can open doors for future cooperation.

The second production facility can also be then used to upgrade planes with new features - or produce fighters for new customers like Argentina etc or Vanazuella etc

You cant just give the production facility to 3rd paty country ? like come on ...

We invested like 2-3 billion dollars with inflation in mind etc

And to offer that to Egypt who has not done any strategic cooperation with us , worth more then few million dollars all of sudden is a bit too much

Don't get me Wrong ... I love the aspect of selling the craft but I think the idea of production line moving to Egypt is a bit early, 4-5 years too early

When you have close relation like

Only after that we can consider this idea -

If they are serious about their defence they will have to buy planes anyways

But if they would like to Invest in Future plane with Pakistan/China they can be considered - this is how it should be

well sir assembly line is different from production line. well egypt assembled 80 K8 and plan for 40 more, what about that?? i think u should object that as well.... please production and assemble of parts is totaly different. Lets pray we get this deal it will be great for us and thunder's future prospects. thanks

 

[Thunder Omni Role]

I think we should go with the deal. But not transfer them Full technology. Some crucial things should stay with Pakistan. Also this TOT should have a clause that its for Egypt only. The planes manufactured in Egypt cannot be sold to other nations.

If these are included then i have no problem.

We don't have full ToT ourselves, pray tell what will happen when RD-93 faces supply problem from Russia? Will the Egyptians be content using Chinese avionics if we ourselves are perceived to be scrambling for western products to put inside me? ToPT is all we can give them and it will be one hell of a deal for Egypt and two hells of a deal for Pak if this can be pulled off. I myself have started doing 10 Rakat Nafal.

PS - where the heck are all the old knowledgeable members, I was a daily visitor from 2008 - 09 now everyone here seem new.

-Thunder

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

I am losing my patience, not because you cant understand but because you do not want to understand.







What kind of a fizzy logic is that???? shall we laugh???




Local population and engineers for what ??? are we building a god damn Hydro Power DAM, or something like that which needs intensive labor.

Aeronautical Engineering is different then the rest of forms of engineering, We only have one such institute at Risalpur, which is producing hardly enough graduates to fulfill the current needs. Forget about establishing 10 lines in different locations(not to mention the logistical night mare its gonna create), we simply cant do that.








why should they agree on such a lousy deal, why not to go somewhere else and have the desired assembly line with some sort of sense of ownership??? Their are plenty that would like to do that for them, Russia , France wont hesitate to get such a lucrative order.





really nice, they would let you play that kind of a joke with them








We have invested and its time harvest, if we know how to do. the rest of the world is far ahead in the race, we must not get out the race if we cant win the gold, we should follow them at least we might win a bronze or a certificate at least.

If our providing them the line is too much then, they are planning to invest billions that's also too much.







Listen nothing bad is going to happen but good if they have the production facility, i mentioned that in my earlier posts. Why is Russia providing production lines to India for its top SUs??? why is France ready to give away production facilities for Rafael to any one with money??? Even turkey is have the production line for potent F-16s for many decades now,, it doesn't mean they have stared producing their own jets and stole technology of America. A hell lot of examples are there but if you just look arround.












Adios

Unfortunately , most countries , start off by developing close relationships with fellow countries MOU and other good stuff trade pacts and other perks , before they ask for TOT ...

Egypt is a No Factor when it comes to pakistan what have they bought few trainers from us ?

If Pakistan developed solid partnership with china , that is priceless , so we got to keep JF17 platform , manufacturing

Local engineers need jobs and Pakistan need to hire these engineers and grow the industry locally - there is a new city GWADAR we can easily setup a second , aircraft assembling industry - it will also enhance our own production capacity from 25 planes to 40 planes/ year - growing the engineering power of nation is as important as cash making from sales

I would like to keep the production manufacturing jobs in Pakistan -

I doubt anyone is offering Egypt anything lol ....

I think business has to be done on equal footing , first develop a solid trust foundation

They are lucky we are selling them 4.5 generation plane to begin with ... they should be thankful and fly our flag first ..

That is how it works - you don't give them your prized asset - JF17 thunder

Egyptians would not get any offers from any one setting up their own production facilities form any nation you can forget about that notion -

Any new airplane sale does not automatically comes with transfer of production lines

India gets their production lines becasue they purhcase good for 10-20 billion dollar range...

If Egyptian order is of that magnitude by all means give them the production lines

200 JF17 thunder planes , is a great potential , and its welcomed , the production lines issue , well I am really in favour of all production to be done in Pakistan in second assembly line in Pakistan , Egyptian engineers can come and get trained first infact - we can even co produce next generation fighters

I would say - to Egypt , look , we love you we can do the "Co-Operation" TOT type project in future - but for now , you can get complete "Made in Pakistan" , let us start our defence cooperation !!! in 2010 ... and lets take it step by step toward the direction of helping you setup production lines in Egypt

We can definity discuss the production lines but after we deliver the frist 200 planes

But :Eypt: has to start off slowly - so our forigne policy and strategic goals are similar

Any secondary orders can be delegated for debate of future joint productions

 

[Thunder Omni Role]

Egypt needs my services because she is tired of being told what to do and how to fly by her American bosses. Egypt knows there is big threat of fall out from possible Iran - Israel war involving any amount of nations. F-16 against Israel is useless, like throwing snow at Santa Clause. Thunder will have big dog's bite in the name of SD-10 BVR and a light weight nuisance that has RCS twice as small than F-16

 

[Adios Amigo]

Unfortunately , most countries , start off by developing close relationships with fellow countries MOU and other good stuff trade pacts and other perks , before they ask for TOT ...

Egypt is a No Factor when it comes to pakistan what have they bought few trainers from us ?

If Pakistan developed solid partnership with china , that is priceless , so we got to keep JF17 platform , manufacturing

Local engineers need jobs and Pakistan need to hire these engineers and grow the industry locally - there is a new city GWADAR we can easily setup a second , aircraft assembling industry - it will also enhance our own production capacity from 25 planes to 40 planes/ year - growing the engineering power of nation is as important as cash making from sales

I would like to keep the production manufacturing jobs in Pakistan - if you don't understand hat can't help it

I doubt anyone is offering Egypt anything lol ....

They are lucky we are selling them 4.5 generation plane to begin with ... they should be thankful and fly our flag first ..

That is how it works - you don't give them your prized asset - JF17 thunder

Egyptians would not get any offers from any one setting up their own production facilities form any nation you can forget about that notion -

Any new airplane sale does not automatically comes with transfer of production lines

India gets their production lines becasue they purhcase good for 10-20 billion dollar range...

If Egyptian order is of that magnitude by all means give them the production lines

AZADPAKISTAN2009


Well dear you win, I loose, I am no match for you, but remember things on International stage do not work the way you think.

The problem here is, many members are not aware of meanings of some very basic terminologies, such as TOT ,TOPT , Assembly lines, Production Capacity, Technology Absorption etc etc.








Adios

 

[Hyde]

Azad Pakistan & Pakistani Nationalist are extra-patriotic Pakistanis....... calm down man relax

I am sure the peoples involved in dealing with Egypt are not stupid. They will finalize the deal keeping the benefits of Pakistan in their mind and at one place we say we need orders and second place we cry for not providing ToT? Indians are doing 126 MMRCA deal and see how much Transfer of Technology they are getting....... so do egypt not deserve ToT if they acquire similar number of aircrafts?

Relax yara