Egypt mulls JF-17 co-production

[pak-yes]

ok.

Guys Please visit the link.I think it's a once in a lifetime opportunity for Pakistan.

 

[Tiger Awan]

Hahahaha good one, I wouldn't mind that Job if offered As a matter of fact I would be proud of it.


How ever if you look through chronology the past few posts were direct replies to my posts which thus were directed to me, had to answer them for that matter.


Beside i want some one else to take my and taimis Job in this thread, we already have been paid enough






Adios

Only few Pakistani members can do what you are doing right now.

Answering without aggression.


I just want some explanation of this statement if any one can give


"Range is not the only criteria to judge a AAM capability other wise Russia would be dominating the skies today over USAF."

What else?

Agility? guidance system?

 

[pak-yes]

yes resistance to jamming everything included.

 

[qsaark]

I said what I had to say; a reply to your rebuttal or whatever will add nothing more to what I have already said. Chinese still depend (albeit lesser than before) on Russian and Israeli technology and the proof lies in the fact that even PAF wants to have the second batch with Western avionics. So this much China is in the driver’s seat…

I gave the example of R-77 because R-77 is considered better than the AMRAAM and SD-10. Chinese pride, J-11 is equipped with R-77 for a reason. Some time back, there were even some speculation of J-11 for PAF, but nothing happened, why? There is ample information online. Neither the Mi-17 nor the T-84UD represents cutting edge Russian technology so this example does not substantiate anything.

Now, JF-17 will wipe out Su-30 from the third world market is kind of very interesting a prophecy. My intellectual limitations do not qualify me even to disagree on this let alone put down a rebuttal.

Lastly, wishes and hopes aside, only time will tell how certain things get materialized. One thing I would like to add though, as a career Scientist, I have found that a cautious and well-calculated approach is always preferable over optimistic one.

 

[Adios Amigo]

Chinese still depend (albeit lesser than before) on Russian and Israeli technology and the proof lies in the fact that even PAF wants to have the second batch with Western avionics. So this much China is in the driver’s seat…

Correct to some extent with regard to Russia, Incorrect with regard to Israel. Not a single Israeli Tech like Radar, Avionics,Missiles etc etc can be seen in their arsenal which make Chinese dependent on them.


For the PAF wanting second batch with western avionics, Does not mean Chinese equipment is worth less and wont do the job. Since you are a researcher, you must be knowing the difference between Capabilities and Competencies . Now figure out the logic behind it.

I gave the example of R-77 because R-77 is considered better than
the AMRAAM and SD-10.

That might be the case but R-77 was not project critical, so not on the priority list.

Chinese pride, J-11 is equipped with R-77 for a reason. Some time back, there were even some speculation of J-11 for PAF, but nothing happened, why? There is ample information online.

Wrong No official or credible source was/is available regarding such news. Under the PAF Modernization Plan 2019, PAF is not interested in a dual engine Aircraft. So a BIG NO.

There were news when Musharraf Visited Russia, that Russians have Offered Pakistan their Jet Fighters. what happened to that????

By the way Chinese pride is J-10 not J-11.

Neither the Mi-17 nor the T-84UD represents cutting edge Russian technology so this example does not substantiate anything.

Strange, are you running after cutting edge or the will of the country to sell you???

Lastly, wishes and hopes aside, only time will tell how certain things get materialized. One thing I would like to add though, as a career Scientist, I have found that a cautious and well-calculated approach is always preferable over optimistic one.

Good and showed followed like that.










Adios

 

[TaimiKhan]

I said what I had to say; a reply to your rebuttal or whatever will add nothing more to what I have already said. Chinese still depend (albeit lesser than before) on Russian and Israeli technology and the proof lies in the fact that even PAF wants to have the second batch with Western avionics. So this much China is in the driver’s seat…

I gave the example of R-77 because R-77 is considered better than the AMRAAM and SD-10. Chinese pride, J-11 is equipped with R-77 for a reason. Some time back, there were even some speculation of J-11 for PAF, but nothing happened, why? There is ample information online. Neither the Mi-17 nor the T-84UD represents cutting edge Russian technology so this example does not substantiate anything.

Now, JF-17 will wipe out Su-30 from the third world market is kind of very interesting a prophecy. My intellectual limitations do not qualify me even to disagree on this let alone put down a rebuttal.

Lastly, wishes and hopes aside, only time will tell how certain things get materialized. One thing I would like to add though, as a career Scientist, I have found that a cautious and well-calculated approach is always preferable over optimistic one.

Sir, just to add, fully Chinese built J-11B is fully compatible with Chinese weapon systems and they do carry Chinese weapon systems. What you are talking about is the J-11As, the ones built with Russian supplied kits and some parts made in China. But J-11B is fully without engines made in China. Rather to the astonishment of Russians, they have made it much better compared to the Su-27s/J-11As gotten earlier.







With WS-10 variant engine:



Your arguments are valid, but just to say, we should not be downgrading the Chinese so much. And Sir to say, they are still dependent on Russia and Israel would be a little unjustified, as it was the case previously. China has gotten enough of the tech from them to have started making their own improved versions as China knows itself they can't rely on others, so they have increased their infrastructure to have their own research and manufacturing base. The newer versions of J-11B is a perfect example to look into it, do read about the reported changes done into it. Their naval platforms, aviation platforms and land based platforms been shown in the last decade are testament that they have now a very good and large research and manufacturing base and have become independent from the Russian & Israeli influence.

 

[qsaark]

Your arguments are valid, but just to say, we should not be downgrading the Chinese so much. And Sir to say, they are still dependent on Russia and Israel would be a little unjustified, as it was the case previously. China has gotten enough of the tech from them to have started making their own improved versions as China knows itself they can't rely on others, so they have increased their infrastructure to have their own research and manufacturing base. The newer versions of J-11B is a perfect example to look into it, do read about the reported changes done into it. Their naval platforms, aviation platforms and land based platforms been shown in the last decade are testament that they have now a very good and large research and manufacturing base and have become independent from the Russian & Israeli influence.

My Dear Taimi, I am the one who has always argued that if Chinese can depend on their own technology to defend their homeland, why cant we depend on their technology to defend our country. I have always been a critic of Pakistani’s obsession towards Western technology and argued that Chinese are catching up fast. Now, I never said that Chinese are ‘dependent’ on Russian or Israeli technology. I have said that they need their input, and the Chinese have not yet reached to a level where they can turn down an opportunity of getting their hands on Russian/Israeli hi-tech avionics and armament. Chinese technology is literally developing in leaps and bounds and that day is not far way when Chinese will start developing their very own technology, BUT there is still some time to reach to that level.

Now as far a J-11 is concerned, it has been on the PAF’s wish list (although unofficially), and why not? The only aircraft that would literally put the PAF at par with the Indian Air Force is the J-11, not the J-10. I don’t buy that PAF is not expressing her interest in J-11 because its twin engine etc., PAF has been operating twin-engine fighters in the past and if a plane would dull the IAF’s sharp teeth, PAF would whole heartedly go for it albeit of the number of engines. However, the Chinese were/are just not ready to provide the J-11 to Pakistan for a number of reasons, above all, IPR issues. Yes, J-11B is fully made by the Chinese without any Russian components, still the basic idea and design is of Russian Sukhoi.

Some discussion on J-11 for PAF here: http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...offered-chinese-4th-generation-j-11-su27.html

 

[razgriz19]

Sir, just to add, fully Chinese built J-11B is fully compatible with Chinese weapon systems and they do carry Chinese weapon systems. What you are talking about is the J-11As, the ones built with Russian supplied kits and some parts made in China. But J-11B is fully without engines made in China. Rather to the astonishment of Russians, they have made it much better compared to the Su-27s/J-11As gotten earlier.







With WS-10 variant engine:



Your arguments are valid, but just to say, we should not be downgrading the Chinese so much. And Sir to say, they are still dependent on Russia and Israel would be a little unjustified, as it was the case previously. China has gotten enough of the tech from them to have started making their own improved versions as China knows itself they can't rely on others, so they have increased their infrastructure to have their own research and manufacturing base. The newer versions of J-11B is a perfect example to look into it, do read about the reported changes done into it. Their naval platforms, aviation platforms and land based platforms been shown in the last decade are testament that they have now a very good and large research and manufacturing base and have become independent from the Russian & Israeli influence.

in the third pic, is j-11 carrying sd-10..??

 

[TaimiKhan]

in the third pic, is j-11 carrying sd-10..??

Lots of pictures of recent J-11Bs are being seen carrying SD-10s/PL-12s.

It has become operational with PLAAF.

 

[SBD-3]

Lots of pictures of recent J-11Bs are being seen carrying SD-10s/PL-12s.

It has become operational with PLAAF.

It looks like Every achievement become history for Chinese in a single year....Sit tight gentlemen...cuz PLAAF will be testing 50-100 new prototypes this year

 

[sancho]

If Pakistan is 50% owner of the JF-17, then it will get 50% of the profit (= price - cost), not revenue. Also, I expect PAF will charge a fee/commission for integration of Western avionics into JF-17.

In any case, this is all speculation. The profit-sharing details will probably remain secret between Pak-China.

Yes, of those parts of JF 17 Pakistan owns and my question was which parts that would be?
I agree, that the clear ammount of profit/revenue won't be made public, but it seems that China will make the most profit out of this deal.
Imo, they will get 50% of selling the airframe, gear, cockpit...parts, which was co-developed with Pakistan. But 100% of weapons, most parts of the avionics and if JF will get a Chinese engine later, also from this part. Which actually shows again how clever they are, because all former customers of cheap Russian fighters, has now the option of low cost JF 17, or even the more capable but still low cost J10 and no matter whichever will win, China benefits the most!

 

[pak-yes]

Yes, of those parts of JF 17 Pakistan owns and my question was which parts that would be?
I agree, that the clear ammount of profit/revenue won't be made public, but it seems that China will make the most profit out of this deal.
Imo, they will get 50% of selling the airframe, gear, cockpit...parts, which was co-developed with Pakistan. But 100% of weapons, most parts of the avionics and if JF will get a Chinese engine later, also from this part. Which actually shows again how clever they are, because all former customers of cheap Russian fighters, has now the option of low cost JF 17, or even the more capable but still low cost J10 and no matter whichever will win, China benefits the most!

Ok Chinese will get more share of Profits so What?????

Oh Khuda ka Banday chand siko kay liya kia ham apni strategic alliance khatam kar day.

 

[Adios Amigo]

Yes, of those parts of JF 17 Pakistan owns and my question was which parts that would be?
I agree, that the clear ammount of profit/revenue won't be made public, but it seems that China will make the most profit out of this deal.
Imo, they will get 50% of selling the airframe, gear, cockpit...parts, which was co-developed with Pakistan. But 100% of weapons, most parts of the avionics and if JF will get a Chinese engine later, also from this part. Which actually shows again how clever they are, because all former customers of cheap Russian fighters, has now the option of low cost JF 17, or even the more capable but still low cost J10 and no matter whichever will win, China benefits the most!

You don't get his answer. Let me brake it down for you to make you understand the difference between revenue and profit.

Revenue is the amount in dollars that will be generated through the sale of Jf-17. Lets suppose it 20 million dollars.

Profit is the amount of dollars which will be the outcome as a result of deduction of the cost incurred on making/producing the Jf-17, from the Revenue generated.

Now lets suppose the total cost is about 15 million dollars to make a piece.

So
Profit > Revenue - Cost

profit : 20 - 15


Profit : 5 million dollars


This 5 million will be divided between the both countries equally. i.e Pakistan will get 2.5 million per peace in this case.


But the case is not that simple. there are concepts of gross and net. suppose china makes a part which costs them 1 million but the offer the part to international market for 1.5 million in this case to jf-17( obviously they wont be offering a part for the cost it takes to produce it) now that .5 million will be purely the earning of china and would not be regarded as profit of the thunder. Same is the case if Pakistan produces and provides some parts for the thunder.

The Cost to produce the whole Aircraft will be considered as the cost at which the parts are available and not at which they are produced.
Adding these Market/tag price of the parts will form the total cost.

Now its obvious that China will be making more out of the deal as
the will provide the majority of parts and sub systems. And its good because they deserve it.


But their is a hidden advantage for Pakistan too.If china sells the air craft to a third party and all the parts i.e I mean everything From A to Z is made in china. and Pakistan has no contribution still it would get its 50% of the net Profit.i.e that 2.5 million I explained earlier










Adios

 

[sancho]

Now lets suppose the total cost is about 15 million dollars to make a piece.

So
Profit > Revenue - Cost

profit : 20 - 15


Profit : 5 million dollars


This 5 million will be divided between the both countries equally. i.e Pakistan will get 2.5 million per peace in this case.

That is what I am curious about, because the $20 million are the price of the total JF with Chinese techs and weapons, but these wasn't funded, or co-developed by Pakistan, so why should they provide 50% profit of the sale of these to Pakistan too?
That's why I said, isn't it more realistic that Pakistan gets only profit of those parts that it co-funded/co-developed?
Btw, I quoted revenue only from a post of another member, it's not about exact numbers for me, I'm just interested in how that deal would really go through, with who will provide what parts for exports and which of them will really produced in Pakistan.

 

[TaimiKhan]

That is what I am curious about, because the $20 million are the price of the total JF with Chinese techs and weapons, but these wasn't funded, or co-developed by Pakistan, so why should they provide 50% profit of the sale of these to Pakistan too?
That's why I said, isn't it more realistic that Pakistan gets only profit of those parts that it co-funded/co-developed?
Btw, I quoted revenue only from a post of another member, it's not about exact numbers for me, I'm just interested in how that deal would really go through, with who will provide what parts for exports and which of them will really produced in Pakistan.

Plz read the JF-17 thread and see the stages of local production set to be achieved in coming years.

In a few years time period, 100% airframe production and nearly 100% avionics would be manufactured at PAC.

But for now all we can do is speculate as to what the arrangement is between China & Pakistan, which offcourse has been kept a secret and would be that way for now and in coming time also.

So keep bragging about this issue is futile. Even if we get 40% of the profits, it is more then enough for us, as not only we will earn money in the initial profit, but also by providing the servicing to the sold aircraft we would earn.

PAC would likely get the overhauling capability of the engine in future, as manufacturer it will have no issue in overhauling the airframe, thus another source of income.

Whatever the arrangement is, its best for us, looking at our capacity and the money invested.