Egypt mulls JF-17 co-production

[Adios Amigo]

That is what I am curious about, because the $20 million are the price of the total JF with Chinese techs and weapons, but these wasn't funded, or co-developed by Pakistan, so why should they provide 50% profit of the sale of these to Pakistan too?

It seems you are un aware of the way these sales are made. The figure of 20 million which I quoted was an assumption not a true figure.

When ever a such a deal is made then the aircraft's worth is determined in advance and so is the case of Armaments. Together they form a price for the whole package. Lets suppose the Price of Jf-17 per peace is 20 million. And the Price for complete package of armament per aircraft is 5 million. Together the 20+5 i.e 25 million dollars will be the Price determined for thunder. suppose if Egypt wants to by 10 of them, then it will cost them 250 million dollars.

Now this 25 million/peace wont be divided between Pakistan and china. The figure of 20 million i.e the original price of the aircraft will be considered and its net profit will be divided. The 5 million dollars for armament will go to the country which produces and provides it. that wont be divided.

I think except SD-10s, Pl-9s and may be PGMs all other Armament is Produced by POF, so Pakistan will earn its Fair share even in this case.

That's why I said, isn't it more realistic that Pakistan gets only profit of those parts that it co-funded/co-developed?

I can not make it more simple then what I explained earlier. The whole aircraft is co-funded.

Btw, I quoted revenue only from a post of another member, it's not about exact numbers for me, I'm just interested in how that deal would really go through, with who will provide what parts for exports and which of them will really produced in Pakistan.

Currently Pakistan is producing 58 percent of the Air frame and 80% of the Avionics and The Armament and Munition I have already explained.

It is be believed that Pakistan will be able to produce 100% of air frame by 2011. And so will be the avionics share of production increased.





Hope have answered your Queries








Adios

 

[Luftwaffe]

I was thinking it is likely in months we might hear the news of the deal its a promising one i hope to see Ra'ad ALCM being exported..would there be any possibility of Ra'ad ALCM sales time will tell..

 

[Adios Amigo]

I was thinking it is likely in months we might hear the news of the deal its a promising one i hope to see Ra'ad ALCM being exported..would there be any possibility of Ra'ad ALCM sales time will tell..

Its a nice question you have raised. Currently we don't have any Information/confirmation if Ra'ad has been integrated/tested from Jf-17 platform. But I don't think It would be much of a problem, If our older Mirages can do that, why not the Latest thunders.

The more Important aspect is the range of the Cruse Missile. As per my knowledge according to International Laws, any cruise or ballistic missile whose rage is more then three hundred kilometers cannot be exported to any other country.


If these issues are handled carefully, no wonder it will give a big plus to Thunders and more bigger and serious countries will form the customer base.

In case ALCM, will surely raise the costs by a significant amount.














Adios

 

[asq]

Do you have any estimates as to how long it would take before the Egyptian government receives the JF-17s? I have heard recently that currently the entire production facilities are focused on fulfilling requirements of Pakistani air force.

it is a trade/National secret, and only Patriotic pakistanis are privy to it.

Someone may tell you about it, we therefore are a very open, plurilistic society and are much more open than those who claim to be the biggest democracies. ane yet keep everything so secret that it boggles one mind.

In my openion those who kep it secret have somthing to hide, wonder what?

 

[graphican]

Mashallah.. this deal is opening 10s of horizons at the same time. I never thought about export of Ra'ad but it is very much of a possibility. I don't think reducing its range to comply international rules would be a problem for us. Increasing missile's length is a demanding task but reducing it is not. I think this is where we can make Israel turn its neck and think few times before confronting country equipped with these armaments.

Good going Pakistan and Alhamdolillah Alhamdolillah Alhamdolillah that God gave us enouogh resources to reach the stage where we stand today.

 

[Luftwaffe]

informative inputs adeos amigo and graphican...where americans have restricted egyptian air force with what to sell what not keeping Israel is armed still above egypt seriously 216 F-16s without ALCMs and bvrs in such a hostile arena has really kept egypt handicapped..with hope to see 150 Thunder and later souped up with possibility of Aa'ad exports Israel will certainly think twice..

 

[Developereo]

I never thought about export of Ra'ad but it is very much of a possibility. I don't think reducing its range to comply international rules would be a problem for us. Increasing missile's length is a demanding task but reducing it is not.

Also we should remember that no country, friend or foe, sells their top-of-the-line technology to anyone. Even China keeps some things for itself.

The missiles we sell to Egypt or anyone else will not be our best. Some things will remain top secret for ever.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Truthfully, I believe that we are in for a firestorm. Israel and its lobby is going to try its best to destabilize this agreement. There will be so much pressure put on egypt and different ways found to get to pakistan. Because this procurement will take egyptian air force to a different pleateau. From being just a defencive and impotent air force, it will look up to be somewhat offencive airforce in the future with some freedom to act.

They say that payback is a bi--tch. Now we have something that we can sell to israel's neighbours---a more potent defencive weapons system at least. Let us see what comes out of it. You sell to my neighbour, I will sell to your's.

 

[nwmalik]

lets not get ahead of us. Like we did for U214.
Wait till the ink is dry then rejoice.

 

[SBD-3]

Hi,

Truthfully, I believe that we are in for a firestorm. Israel and its lobby is going to try its best to destabilize this agreement. There will be so much pressure put on egypt and different ways found to get to pakistan. Because this procurement will take egyptian air force to a different pleateau. From being just a defencive and impotent air force, it will look up to be somewhat offencive airforce in the future with some freedom to act.

They say that payback is a bi--tch. Now we have something that we can sell to israel's neighbours---a more potent defencive weapons system at least. Let us see what comes out of it. You sell to my neighbour, I will sell to your's.

Mastan,
I think if we see the current egyptian AF inventory, it seems preety decent, (centainly as compared to PAF)
25 Phantoms (good plane even now)
216 Flacons (82% C/D versions 18% A/B)
18 Mirage 2000
60 Mirage V (lets consider this in old catagory)
103 F-7/Mig-21 (91 in "Fighter" configuration)
Total High end -259

They have a decent force....capable of more than defending....
Looking at IdAF
68-F-15s (Strike and A,Dom versions 25 A/B)
299-F-16s (72 F-16 A/Bs rest 75% advanced versions)
total High end-270
I think they are Nicely balanced against IdAF interms of power punch....Israel doen't fear them because Egypt is an ally of Israel now rather than "classical times-Pro Arab" enemy...JF is more to replace the Low end fighters....considering they go all out for JF we can expect a final requirment around 200 units....my 2 cents

 

[TaimiKhan]

Egypt may be an Ally of Israel, but recently the Israeli govt was worried on some defence selling to Egypt by US and objected that in nearly every Egyptian wargame exercises, Israel is the enemy in them.

CNSNews.com - Egyptian War Games Cause For Concern in Israel, Lawmaker Says

Congressman: Egypt preparing for war with Israel

And with US equipment and the proximity of US Israel relations, it can be safely said in case of a war, these Egyptian US planes can be very susceptible.

And Israel has many other tricks up the sleeve to counter these Egyptian F-16s and other US made aircraft. Plus, as said above, Egypt is not BVR capable, but Israel is.

So the Egyptians need another fighter, less prone to the limitations as on the US equipment.

 

[SBD-3]

Egypt may be an Ally of Israel, but recently the Israeli govt was worried on some defence selling to Egypt by US and objected that in nearly every Egyptian wargame exercises, Israel is the enemy in them.

CNSNews.com - Egyptian War Games Cause For Concern in Israel, Lawmaker Says

Congressman: Egypt preparing for war with Israel

And with US equipment and the proximity of US Israel relations, it can be safely said in case of a war, these Egyptian US planes can be very susceptible.

And Israel has many other tricks up the sleeve to counter these Egyptian F-16s and other US made aircraft. Plus, as said above, Egypt is not BVR capable, but Israel is.

So the Egyptians need another fighter, less prone to the limitations as on the US equipment.

look israel even don't consider US in its good books....looking at your link....

Egypt’s military buildup in preparation for a future war with Israel can and must be halted by cutting off US aid to Cairo, Congressman Tom Lantos said this week.

....here the trick is not about US cutting Egypt's funding......but US increasing Israel's funding. At current Israel leads the aid table in ME with 3 Bio USD followed by Egypt 2.2 Bio and Palastine about 1 Bio. And all the aid is millitary.....Israel knows that what could be the consequences of getting Eygpt's aid...to both US and Israel...you may know that Israeli millitary regularly uses suez..............to get stretegic depth in mediterranean sea. So obviously they wont like this at all. Secondly Eygpt can fuel hamas through rafah crossing...So the bottomline would fall on increasing Israel's chunk rather than cutting Egypt's.
You would also know that US Mil aid can only be spent on purchasing US arms...so egypt has no other way but to go to US.....Otherwise they could have gone for "Suuukoooooiiii" (I love it when Aussies pronounce it like it) or Fulcrums with BVR.They had Mig-21's.........So it would not be that egyptians would go for only BVR...its more about replacement...and israel is worried about every single sale in ME. It knows the fact that it is too small a country...the only refuge is nuke capability.Here is a link.
Israel wary of U.S.-Arab arms deals - Haaretz - Israel News

 

[bc040400065]

I was thinking it is likely in months we might hear the news of the deal its a promising one i hope to see Ra'ad ALCM being exported..would there be any possibility of Ra'ad ALCM sales time will tell..

Dear not only Ra'ad don;t forget AWC is producing more weapons for the airforce which can be included in the deal for export with thunders. here is the list of AWC's products .

Air-launched weaponry
Practice bombs (6 kg, 11 kg)
250 kg Pre-fragmented bomb
250 kg Mk.82 general purpose bomb
250 kg GBU-12 laser-guided bomb
500 kg Mk.83 bomb
500 kg GBU-16 laser-guided bomb
1000 kg Mk.84 bomb
1000 kg GBU-10 laser-guided bomb
Mk.80 series general purpose bomb tail units (low drag or high drag speed-retarding devices)
HAFR-1 and HAFR-2 anti-runway weapons (variants of the Matra Durandal)
Ra'ad ALCM

 

[Mani2020]

.However, the Chinese were/are just not ready to provide the J-11 to Pakistan for a number of reasons, above all, IPR issues. Yes, J-11B is fully made by the Chinese without any Russian components, still the basic idea and design is of Russian Sukhoi[/url]

Sir i dun think that this has been the case coz China has done it b4 and they can do it again for example F-7 the chinese copy of mig-21 and f-6 the chinese copy of mig-19...so china didnt have problem with that as it is famous about them that "They do everythng on their own terms and conditions" it might have been another issue

 

[MastanKhan]

Mastan,
I think if we see the current egyptian AF inventory, it seems preety decent, (centainly as compared to PAF)
25 Phantoms (good plane even now)
216 Flacons (82% C/D versions 18% A/B)
18 Mirage 2000
60 Mirage V (lets consider this in old catagory)
103 F-7/Mig-21 (91 in "Fighter" configuration)
Total High end -259

They have a decent force....capable of more than defending....
Looking at IdAF
68-F-15s (Strike and A,Dom versions 25 A/B)
299-F-16s (72 F-16 A/Bs rest 75% advanced versions)
total High end-270
I think they are Nicely balanced against IdAF interms of power punch....Israel doen't fear them because Egypt is an ally of Israel now rather than "classical times-Pro Arab" enemy...JF is more to replace the Low end fighters....considering they go all out for JF we can expect a final requirment around 200 units....my 2 cents

Hi,

They have no bvr's---secondly their american atoa missiles are useless agains the israelis---first, they are not allowed to use them against israel, even if they do, second, the israelis have source code for them---so all this stuff they have is just for show---the only thing they can use is the french and russian missiles in close combat.

Let us wait and see how conscious the pak millitary and the egyptyians are of this scenario. The egyptians ready to say goodbye to u s aid!