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DRDO official sees good export potential for Tejas

If Tejas comes in competition with any US fighter jet - US wont let Israel go the deal through & thats after IF Tejas wins against F-16C/D which it wont.

Can you quote the price from authentic source?? How much is F-16C/D cost....
as per my knowledge F-16C/D lacks in most of the things even with BVR??...
If you take the F-16 C/D and rip of everything and put the technologies that Tejas has it cost double that what Tejas is...
 
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If Tejas comes in competition with any US fighter jet - US wont let Israel go the deal through & thats after IF Tejas wins against F-16C/D which it wont.


By that logic we should buy the MMRCA from the USA and all your F16s are gone. Poof!
 
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Can you quote the price from authentic source?? How much is F-16C/D cost....

Depending on the package you buy , the cost of F-16 Block52+ is around 30 to 35 million per unit which is same as LCA II - 30 to 32 million per unit.

as per my knowledge F-16C/D lacks in most of the things even with BVR??.
..

You need to educate yourself a bit more then , this is my advice to you.

Air-to-Air Missiles:
AIM-120B AMRAAM
AIM-9M-9 Sidewinder
AIM-9X Sidewinder

Guided Missiles:
AGM-154A JSOW
AGM-154B JSOW
AGM-154C JSOW
AGM-158A JASSM
AGM-65G Maverick
AGM-65H Maverick
AGM-65K Maverick
AGM-88D HARM

Bombs:
GBU-10 Paveway II
GBU-12 Paveway II
GBU-16 Paveway II
GBU-24 Paveway III
GBU-27 Paveway III
GBU-31 JDAM
GBU-32 JDAM
GBU-35 JDAM
GBU-38 JDAM

Power plant:
F100-PW-229

Sensors & Communications:
AN/ALR-93
AN/APG-68
AN/ASQ-213 HTS
DB-110
LITENING AT
PANTERA
RACR
Sniper XR
TARS SAR

Guns & Missile Launchers:
M61A1

Protection Systems:
AN/ALE-47
AN/ALE-50
AN/ALQ-187
AN/ALQ-211 SIRFC

Tell me when India can provide better package than above in the same price to get competitive advantage.

If you take the F-16 C/D and rip of everything and put the technologies that Tejas has it cost double that what Tejas is...

No it doesn't .

---------- Post added at 10:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:27 AM ----------

By that logic we should buy the MMRCA from the USA and all your F16s are gone. Poof!

What have you been smoking lately ?
 
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True, but we won't sell LCA MK1 now, the plan is to sell LCA MK2 to export customers, that means beyond 2015 and in that time it will look pretty different:

1: Engine - Kaveri / Snecma engine instead of GE 414

French Engine & France is a NATO member , just imagine in 2016 Iran asks to buy 250 LCA - France wont let you sale their engines in because Iran is under sanctions.


2: Avionics - already mainly Indian, or co-developed

Mainly Israeli i would say.

3: Radar - indigenous MMR, or co-developed AESA

Good luck with that , India seems to make good progress in this one.

4: Ew suite - Mayavi is co-developed as well

Why are you buying EW suites from Elisra (Israeli) then?

5: Ejection seats - check rpraveenkum post below

Surely would be sorted out by 2015 , no doubts on this one.

6: HMS - Dash V now, Topsight I is produced in India

Elbit (Israel) provides DASH & HOTAS. Producing is one thing , having technology to build under your own resources and expertise is another.

7: MFDs/MMIF - already Indian

Currently Israeli Elbit provided MMIF/MFD for Tejas , i do hope to see Indian variants or at least home produced ones by 2015.

8: Data link - Indian

Indian datalink on Israeli Avionics --- wow ! :rolleyes:

9: Armament inc LGB-BVRAAM-WVRM-GBs-ALCMs. - Sudharshan LGB, Astra BVR missile + Russian, Israeli, or European weapons are available

Dude , i have never said that India can't develop such weapons , what i have said is that for winning customer confidence you need to come up with armaments which could outclass all other options.

other than that , having to use Russian or Israeli weaponry not only adds a lot to the cost but also involves political strings attached to them. India needs to have its own competitive arms package which at the moment is no where in sight.


As you can see, there is nothing that would be a big problem for exports, mainly because we are not as dependend on the US, like the Gripen for example. We have several independent alternatives for those parts, that are not at least co-developed and that's what gives us an advantage.

Sweden is not the same as India they have their own Engine called RM-12 based on GE so they don't have much issues but still they wont bite on where US wants to.



First of all, check the price PAF is paying for the Block 52 and compare it again with the price for LCA.

see below

Secondly, CFTs are not needed, because LCA MK2 will carry comparable fuel internally (the rest see above).

CFTs allow 440 gallons of extra fuel , its an advantage you cant deny.

If LCA and F16 will be offered for the same export country, LCA has good chances to be ahead in regard to operational terms and cost, but falls short at political advantages, just like it is the case with western counterparts as well, but that doesn't mean there are no export potentials. Especially in several South American, African, or Asian countries, LCA would be very interesting, because it offers similar techs and capabilities like western fighters, but at lower costs and that for the next 40 years. The only 4th gen single engine fighter that will be on offer in that time will be JF 17 and J10, Gripen NG only if they get an export order soon.

are you trying to say that LCA is better than F-16C/D Block52+ in operational capability ?

5: Ejection seats

Escape systemsAlthough two-seat variants of the LCA are planned, the examples built to date are crewed by a single pilot on a Martin-Baker zero-zero ejection seat. The British Martin-Baker ejection seat is planned to be replaced with a locally-developed alternative.[67] To improve pilot safety during ejection, the Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE), Pune, India created a new line-charged canopy severance system, which has been certified by Martin-Baker.

Thanks for posting wikipedia , i have answered it already.

Unit cost:
F-16 is $17 million.
Tejas is $31 million.


How much was India planning to sell Tejas for export ?[/QUOTE]

Those are the numbers from 1998, by now it will be around $30M if we add inflation. F-16 B52 goes for $55M a piece and the ones they offered to India cost around $65M.

PS:Morocco bought 24 F-16 B52 planes for $2.4B which translates to $100M a plane.

From this link

F-16


Seems Pakistan paid around $75M a piece for F-16 Block 52 which is much more than the present price of LCA. We will come to know the export price when we got the first order.

yes u r right..it was $18.8 million USD in 1998..but now the latest F-16 costs with spares,logistics,simulator..will cost u around $50-$55 million USD

Can you quote the price from authentic source?? How much is F-16C/D cost....
as per my knowledge F-16C/D lacks in most of the things even with BVR??...
If you take the F-16 C/D and rip of everything and put the technologies that Tejas has it cost double that what Tejas is...


Here is the original price.
Fullscreen%20capture%209032011%2090502%20AM.jpg


Some of you have come up with ridiculous prices which made me laugh.
Pakistan can't afford to buy a Jet priced at 75 Million a unit , if we could we would have bought F-15s.

Best Regards:
 
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it doesnt matter if the components are imported the plane was made in india for india,developing technology takes time so why should one use a lower technology when a better technology is available for use,jf 17 is running on russian engine so does it mean it is not a chinese plane
 
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Hi Guys,

As I went through the post and got to know everyone are concerned about LCA’s engine.

Let me make it clear for you guys.

The entire exported engines (404IN and 414IN) are only for the current demand of LCA from the IAF and Navy.

HAL has no plan to export LCA with American engine.

Some people asked about the other part as it is exported from other country.

Guys as you know that LCA is build indigenously, and the part you are talking… surely India can make it, the only point… it will be done when it will start building in bulk….coz this parts are costly cannot be build in few numbers…It will simply increase the cost.

Guys DON be loaded. We will come out with the flying colors…AS you know India is not stealing the technology…we don have Chori Chakari department.

Thanks,
-Shree
 
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We are exporting Mind to whole world not terrorist…So surely we can make it.

Just an example to make you understand:


Thanks,
-Shree
 
Last edited by a moderator:
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French Engine & France is a NATO member , just imagine in 2016 Iran asks to buy 250 LCA - France wont let you sale their engines in because Iran is under sanctions.

Your whole article is based on premise that India will sell LCA to Iran, You should know that India will not sell any weapons to Iran. Your hypothetical argument didn't hold true if it sell to countries which are not embargo nations by NATO. There are many south east asian nations, african nations who are potential LCA customers.
 
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French Engine & France is a NATO member , just imagine in 2016 Iran asks to buy 250 LCA - France wont let you sale their engines in because Iran is under sanctions.




Mainly Israeli i would say.



Good luck with that , India seems to make good progress in this one.



Why are you buying EW suites from Elisra (Israeli) then?



Surely would be sorted out by 2015 , no doubts on this one.



Elbit (Israel) provides DASH & HOTAS. Producing is one thing , having technology to build under your own resources and expertise is another.



Currently Israeli Elbit provided MMIF/MFD for Tejas , i do hope to see Indian variants or at least home produced ones by 2015.



Indian datalink on Israeli Avionics --- wow ! :rolleyes:



Dude , i have never said that India can't develop such weapons , what i have said is that for winning customer confidence you need to come up with armaments which could outclass all other options.

other than that , having to use Russian or Israeli weaponry not only adds a lot to the cost but also involves political strings attached to them. India needs to have its own competitive arms package which at the moment is no where in sight.




Sweden is not the same as India they have their own Engine called RM-12 based on GE so they don't have much issues but still they wont bite on where US wants to.





see below



CFTs allow 440 gallons of extra fuel , its an advantage you cant deny.



are you trying to say that LCA is better than F-16C/D Block52+ in operational capability ?



Thanks for posting wikipedia , i have answered it already.




How much was India planning to sell Tejas for export ?










Here is the original price.
Fullscreen%20capture%209032011%2090502%20AM.jpg


Some of you have come up with ridiculous prices which made me laugh.
Pakistan can't afford to buy a Jet priced at 75 Million a unit , if we could we would have bought F-15s.

Best Regards[/QUOTE]

> ever heard about SAMTEL ,a delhi based company is now making Su 30mki and LCA MFD which will even present a proposal for touch screen based Display soon.....Indian-Made MFD System Cleared For Su-30MKI | AVIATION WEEK

I got lot of info in my pandora box but soo... lazy to work out. :lol:;) get over your delusion mate ,you always eat half baked cookie .......
 
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AVIONICS


The avionics system enhances the role of Light Combat Aircraft as an effective weapons platform. The glass cockpit and hands on throttle and stick (HOTAS) controls reduce pilot workload. Accurate navigation and weapon aiming information on the head up display helps the pilot achieve his mission effectively. The multi-function displays provide information on engine, hydraulics, electrical, flight control and environmental control system on a need-to-know basis along with basic flight and tactical information. Dual redundant display processors (DP) generate computer-generated imagery on these displays. The pilot interacts with the complex avionics systems through a simple multifunction keyboard, and function and sensor selection panels.
A state-of-the-art multi-mode radar (MMR), laser designator pod (LDP), forward looking infra-red (FLIR) and other opto-electronic sensors provide accurate target information to enhance kill probabilities. A ring laser gyro (RLG)-based inertial navigation system (INS), provides accurate navigation guidance to the pilot. An advanced electronic warfare (EW) suite enhances the aircraft survivability during deep penetration and combat. Secure and jam-resistant communication systems, such as IFF, VHF/UHF and air-to-air/air-to-ground data link are provided as a part of the avionics suite. All these systems are integrated on three 1553B buses by a centralised 32-bit mission computer (MC) with high throughput which performs weapon computations and flight management, and reconfiguration/redundancy management. Reversionary mission functions are provided by a control and coding unit (CCU).

Most of these subsystems have been developed indigenously.

The digital FBW system of the Tejas is built around a quadruplex redundant architecture to give it a fail op-fail op-fail safe capability. It employs a powerful digital flight control computer (DFCC) comprising four computing channels, each powered by an independent power supply and all housed in a single line replaceable unit (LRU). The system is designed to meet a probability of loss of control of better than 1×10-7 per flight hour. The DFCC channels are built around 32-bit microprocessors and use a safe subset of Ada language for the implementation of software. The DFCC receives signals from quad rate, acceleration sensors, pilot control stick, rudder pedal, triplex air data system, dual air flow angle sensors, etc. The DFCC channels excite and control the elevon, rudder and leading edge slat hydraulic actuators. The computer interfaces with pilot display elements like multi-function displays through MIL-STD-1553B avionics bus and RS 422 serial link.















Following are the important avionics components:


Mission Computer (MC): MC performs the central processing functions apart from performing as Bus Controller and is the central core of the Avionics system. The hardware architecture is based on a dual 80386 based computer with dual port RAM for interprocessor communication. There are three dual redundant communication channels meeting with MIL-STD-1553B data bus specifications. The hardware unit development was done by ASIEO, Bangalore and software design & development by ADA.

HUD: The Head-up-Display of the LCA is a unit developed by the state-owned CSIO, Chandigarh. The HUD is claimed to be superior to similar systems in the international market. According to Mr. CV M L Narasimham, head of CSIO's Applied Optics division, compared to Israel's HUD, the CSIO equipment is noiseless, silent, and offers a better field of view. It is compact, reliable, non-reflective and designed for high-performance aircraft. It was first put on the PV-2 version of the LCA.


:azn:









Control & Coding Unit (CCU): In the normal mode, CCU provides real time I/O access which are essentially pilot's controls and power on controls for certain equipment. In the reversionary mode, when MC fails, CCU performs the central processing functions of MC. The CCU also generates voice warning signals. The main processor is Intel 80386 microprocessor. The hardware is developed by RCI, Hyderabad and software by ADA
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Display Processors (DP): DP is one of the mission critical software intensive LRUs of LCA. The DP drives two types of display surfaces viz. a monochrome Head Up display (HUD) and two colour multifunction displays (MFDs). The equipment is based on four Intel 80960 microprocessors. There are two DPs provided (one normal and one backup) in LCA. These units are developed by ADE, Bangalore.

Mission Preparation & Data Retrieval Unit (MPRU): MPRU is a data entry and retrieval unit of LCA Avionics architecture. The unit performs mission preparation and data retrieval functions. In the preparation mode, it transfers mission data prepared on Data Preparation Cartridge (DPC) with the help of ground compliment, to various Avionics equipment. In the second function, the MPRU receives data from various equipment during the Operational Flight Program (OFP) and stores data on Resident Cartridge Card (RCC). This unit is developed by LRDE, Bangalore.

USMS Electronic Units: The following processor based digital Electronics Units (EU) are used for control and monitoring, data logging for fault diagnosis and maintenance: Environment Control System Controller (ECSC), Engine and Electrical Monitoring System Electronics Unit (EEMS-EU), Digital Fuel Monitoring System Electronics Unit (DFM-EU) and Digital Hydraulics and Brake Management System Electronics Unit (DH-EU)
Changes in PV-2: The production standard cockpit has no electro mechanical standby instruments. The cockpit is dominated by three 5"x 5" AMLCD MFD's, two Smart Standby Display Units (SSDU) and the indigenous HUD. The HUD has an Up Front Control Panel (UFCP) which is a significant man machine interface (MMI) enhancement which allows the pilot to program, initialize the avionics and enter mission and system critical data through an interactive soft touch keyboard. Although the FOV of this HUD is slightly less than that of contemporary units on other aircraft of this generation it is not considered significant because the ELBIT, Israel furnished DASH helmet mounted display and sight (HMDS) will form an integral part of the avionics suite.
The four utilities system monitoring LRUs have been reduced to two dual redundant units. These units perform the control, monitoring, data logging for fault diagnosis and maintenance functions.
A HAL Korwa developed Flight data recorder will be fitted after the initial flights.
The PV2 is a much lighter aircraft and possesses advanced software technology, unlike the Test Demonstrator I, II and PV1. There is an advancement in the build standard of PV2, which is a software intensive fourth generation combat aircraft built to production standard. Besides having a high percentage of composite materials in its airframe structure, it incorporates a state-of-the-art, integrated, modular avionics system with open architecture concepts to facilitate easy hardware and software upgrades and re-usability.


http://www.lca-tejas.org/avionics.html

read it Mr. Researcher :rolleyes:
 
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Benny it gets more complex than just having an indigenous engine which still has to prove itself.

1: Engine
2: Avionics
3: Radar
4: Ew suite
5: Ejection seats
6: HMS
7: MFDs/MMIF
8: Data link
9: Armament inc LGB-BVRAAM-WVRM-GBs-ALCMs.

My point is , none of the above of these aircraft is manufactured by India at the moment which means that you would have to listen to the demands of your suppliers when negotiating this air craft with a country mind you your customer can come in direct conflict with your supplier.

Just imagine , Iran asks to buy this a/c how would US and Israel two largest suppliers of this a/c would respond ? -- they simply wont let you sale this a/c to Iran and many other countries.

I am not saying that India can't develop those capabilities but it will take a very long time , more r&d hence adding into the original cost of the a/c and consequently into the unit price/ac.

To market it aggressively India needs to be independent in developing those technologies , then comes the question of being competent enough to be in that unit price range and competing with other jets technically and in terms of operational capabilities.

Put it this way , India won't be able to produce SNIPER Targeting pod - JHMCS - LINK-16 - CFTs which come as a package with an air craft like F-16C/D and at lesser price than Tejas . As a customer what would you go for?

Take care.


God how many times do I have to explain the R and D process of a airplane here. When you clearly dont know how manufacturing works then why do you comment on things ? Please refer back to the LCH thread to learn how a development process works. You dont have to make every single part inhouse to claim indigenous development. The modern procurement model is a global model and making everything in house is an outdated process.

6a00d8356fb76c69e200e553a06c7d8833-800wi


This is how the DRDO saves cost, by outsourcing parts that are cheaper to procure from outside, it saves on R & D which have a higher run on effect.

procurement_diagram1.jpg


npd_f2b_process.gif



image_005.png


Please go through each and every diagram to understand how the procurement process works.

To claim a parent or a trademark, US laws only ask for the first two phases of the development phase to be in house. Which means that only the initial roadmap and Research assessments needs to be done by a country. The roadmap will consist of things such as the BOM, all first stage drawings etc, parts to complete those requirements can come from anywhere in the world. India has full access to world markets therefore your argument about the availability of parts is just stupid.

If we go by the same logic you are putting up, the JF-17 is a purely Chinese development with Pakistan contributing nothing in the first two phases. The JF-17 is a much more riskier investment than a Teja mainly because procurement is too centralized and prone to supply gaps and quality issues.

Im sure you will come up with a stupid comeback just like your old friend growler, but its obvious that neither of you know even a zit of the manufacturing process.
 
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http://www.hal-/aircraftnasik/products.asp#ES

EJECTION SEAT



The Ejection Seat is installed to provide safe escape to the Pilot from the Aircraft while catapuling is effected with the help of a combined Ejection Gun. The Division has the facilities and expertise in the manufacture and overhaul of ejection seats for both MiG-27M and MiG-21 variants.


DEFEXPO 2004 - Part 3
to the cockpit, the production LCAs are to feature an indigenous ejection seat in lieu of the Martin Baker Mk.16 on the prototypes
 
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You should get some more infos on LCA!

French Engine & France is a NATO member , just imagine in 2016 Iran asks to buy 250 LCA - France wont let you sale their engines in because Iran is under sanctions.

First of all, Kaveri is an Indian engine, it just gets a French core and France don't pose EUM on us.


Why are you buying EW suites from Elisra (Israeli) then?

We aren't Mayavi is co-developed with Elsira, not bought from them.


Producing is one thing , having technology to build under your own resources and expertise is another.

Your claim was that India is not producing these techs and weapons in India, so how come it doesn't matter now?
Regarding the other avionics, just check PANDORAs posts


Dude , i have never said that India can't develop such weapons , what i have said is that for winning customer confidence you need to come up with armaments which could outclass all other options.

other than that , having to use Russian or Israeli weaponry not only adds a lot to the cost but also involves political strings attached to them. India needs to have its own competitive arms package which at the moment is no where in sight.

Not neccesarily, because we can offer techs and weapons for a cost-effective price too, that's the biggest problem that the Europeans have for example. They have high tech weapons but at way too high costs, that's why they often have a disadvantage compared to the US. For India as I said, we can offer a variety of cost-effective and capable weapons and techs. The customer don't have to choose expensive European, or downgraded US weapon (Aim 120 C5 and Aim 9M that PAF gets for example), but could choose latest Indian, Russian, or Israeli weapons as well. That will give a big advantage on export markets and for those markets that I mentioned, there wouldn't be problems with Israelis. Russians wouldn't complain anyway, because that's a possibility to sell their weapons to places that normally wouldn't buy them with Russian fighters.
 
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Depending on the package you buy , the cost of F-16 Block52+ is around 30 to 35 million per unit which is same as LCA II - 30 to 32 million per unit.
Yes what does that contains.. and dont compare that with your PAF and Israel one... because US gives consistent discount.. while the block 60 cost more than $65 million (fly away cost) in MMRCA and will cost more in future because of the production coming to an end... while 52+ will be around 45 million(fly away) for sure shot with the technologies that Tejas provides... while Tejas has not started its production it cost around $30-35 million .... when the production actually starts it will actually go down.. while LCA provides fair good deal with almost all technologies the basic Block 52 provides and being the smallest fighter it is a good one in the light category to say to the category of M2K and its performance beating it at any time.

Tell me when India can provide better package than above in the same price to get competitive advantage.
while India cannot compete on technology on a platform that is going to die and which has matured considerably over 3 decades but it can surely reach to the level in decades time... while the export may not be as good as we hold but still it will have all latest technologies affordable by the countries.... to Add spice HAL has been able to provide a competitive Dhruv for export... at a very cheap cost by competing with Europe and US firms.. India has been competitive in price because unlike US and Europe who spend more on finding technology we are doing catch up with a good know-how... that is the difference that India is able to produce cheap goods.. At any time i bet India will provide Competitive technology for export with 70-80% of the cost of US and European firms... while this can go down when we produce components internally (logically we wont because setting the industry will cost more and increase unit cost)...
 
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