Does Pakistan Need Secularism?

[Kompromat]

The jirga is an assembly of village elders and reflects the rituals of the Pashtun traditional assembly in which village and valley notables gather to discuss and resolve disputes and make collective decisions about important social issues.
Where as "shura" is a council and is limited to advisory activities only.The ruler can consult them,and the state is not ruled by them.anyways,neither in a "shura",nor in a "jirgah",the concept of election from grassroot level is present.

Now you understand

The two tribes that you mention were dominant tribes in and around Mecca at the time of advent of Islam.They did not have democratic elections to choose their own leaders.

Depends on what you call democratic , those leaders were trusted by their people and consolidation over important issues did exist thats what kept them in power otherwise the thousands years old tradition would go bust as dictatorship doesn't last long.

Okay,no more side reading....

Thats nice of you.

 

[rickshaw driver]

with 98 percent muslims population i dont think u need secularism

 

[nForce]

There is -- as per our constitution the head of the state has to be a Muslim but he wont be a spiritual leader in current state.

Now you understand



Depends on what you call democratic , those leaders were trusted by their people and consolidation over important issues did exist thats what kept them in power otherwise the thousands years old tradition would go bust as dictatorship doesn't last long.




Thats nice of you.

Okay Aeronaut,I feel that we have reached towards the end of our,rather entertaining discussion.
I dont think either of us have anything else to contribute.So,its better that we put an end to this discussion now.
So far as the topic is concerned,yes,there will be differences,for there cannot be absolute uniformity. (lol..I am actually quoting Bhagwad Gita here)
In spite of various issues,the state of Pakistan is doing quite well,amidst all the hurdles,that very few country in this World could have handled and still stand united.Kudos to you,the people of Pakistan,and best of luck....
It was nice talking to you.Stay around,we might have another debate on some other topic,someday.

 

[EjazR]

The current government headed by zardari is very secular..look at their achievements.
Infact it is soo secular that our FM cannot even recite Surat ul Ikhlas properly!

Secularism in the Indian context is not anti-religion. It is about giving equal respect of all religions and equality in the eyes of the law. And there is nothing unIslamic about this.

You don't have to NOT know the Quran or NOT pray to be secular. You can be devout muslim or a devout hindu and still be secular.

If Pakistanis keep thinking about being secular as the French style of secularism they will always be confusion. If you look at the Indian point of view of secularism, it will be more helpful in understanding this.

The main benefit of secularism is that people don't use religion for political benefit which is the bane of Pakistan.


The way the right is shouting and blabbering such incorrect information that it is unbelievable. The misconception of the audience is also just out of this world. The people can't understand the SIMPLE fact that being secular and being a devout muslim is exclusive. The fact is that it is totally inclusive.

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

Are you sure, do you never read news some times of westerns not permitting Azans , sometimes not permitting constructing Masjid in an Area without any solid reason.
how can a muslim Family can live entirely in an Islamic way there ,will the outside Vulgar culture never disturb them ,their friends ,co-leagues, their parties, schools,colleges will upset their Islamic system
the Truth is that a specific area or Location always have an effect on your mind and Soul And Perhaps on your whole life
when you are in MACCAH (KA-ABA Shreef) your mind is different
and when you are in a N Club your views are Different
the same is the case for Pakistan and India
in India even there are large number of muslims but the major area of India is inappropriate for Muslims to live

Bro its not that they never permitted azan but they tell everyone to keep the loudness of Adhan within the premises so that those who are not Muslims and live near the mosques don't get disturb because of Fajar azan or late night prayers or sermons. This rule is not just for Muslims but for temples, churches and for all other religious places. All mosques have got time tables and you exactly know the times of five prayers and you can hear the vioce of azan inside mosque but vioce of azan is not as loud as you normally hear in Pakistan

Secondly i agree with you that society can influence the minds of peoples but only those peoples who are weak in their faith and Pakistani society is also not perfect although I love Pakistan more than any other country with all its imperfections but there is nothing wrong to accept the truth even if its hurt.
I have been living in many western countries from last seven years and i have never been in any clubs, never drink, smoke or never participated in all other activities which are against my beliefs. I have seen many devout Muslims in western countries and many western minded peoples in Pakistani society. Its all depend on your personal commitment with your deen. Living in Islamic country don't make you good Muslim but you need to do some effort to implement islam in your personal life and you can do this in England as well as in Pakistan. Why i said pakistan is not islamic state buceuase i dont see the islam in society

Basic responsibility of any Islamic state should be the protection of life and honour of its citizens, should provide quick justice to its peoples, should provide basic needs to those who are disable or cannot work for whatever reasons and to be honest these all Islamic concepts are well implemented in western secular countries and i am sure you know the situation in Pakistani courts and what justice our police provide to our peoples. Bribe and corruption is very common in ever single department of Pakistan. Might is right there. If you have power and money then you can break laws and can escape easily. Its not bad to learn the positive things from western society. Character of Muslim is what missing in Pakistani society. I even see some girls feel insecure to go to bus stop/college without their father or bro with them because of fear of harassment. So i would ask you that where is weakness? Why we don't see the practical Islam in Pakistani Muslim society ?

 

[kingkobra]

Are you sure, do you never read news some times of westerns not permitting Azans , sometimes not permitting constructing Masjid in an Area without any solid reason.
how can a muslim Family can live entirely in an Islamic way there ,will the outside Vulgar culture never disturb them ,their friends ,co-leagues, their parties, schools,colleges will upset their Islamic system
the Truth is that a specific area or Location always have an effect on your mind and Soul And Perhaps on your whole life
when you are in MACCAH (KA-ABA Shreef) your mind is different
and when you are in a N Club your views are Different
the same is the case for Pakistan and India
in India even there are large number of muslims but the major area of India is inappropriate for Muslims to live

thing is like this..there are two types of hindus and two types of muslims...
hindus and muslims who are always ready to fight each other for small things and hindus and muslims who are extremely liberal...
thats why you will see that in india no one lives in muslim dominated areas except muslims...while hindu dominated areas have jains,budhists,christains,sikhs etc...

but most of India has areas were people of all religion live together irrespective of their financial condition...
eg. rich hindus and muslims live together in posh highrises while extremely poor hindus and muslims live together in dharavi at the same time...
so its matter of how people think...i live in building were both hindus and muslims and sikhs live happily...but most jains will never ever ever live in same building as of Muslims..

 

[Omar1984]

I think its impossible for Pakistan to be secular like Turkey, but I dont believe Pakistan is truly an Islamic country like Saudi Arabia or Iran either. Just turn on Ary channel and watch nach le, those are Pakistani Muslim girls dancing erotically with Pakistani Muslim boys on national television.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

pakistan is both Secular and Islamic
na DEEN ke rahe na Dunya ke
Sir history Parhen
when Tereek-e-Pakistan was going on Secular-Islamic Ulama joined Congress and Full-Islamic joined Quiad and Muslim League
in our first Assembly ,there was a good number of Ulamas in there and with there hard work and involvement our first CONSTITUTION is totally Islamic ,this is the Paper we are Proud of, it is compulsory for Govt as said by that Paper to Follow that "KIRARDD-e-MAQASID" in every future constitution!
now all the remaining history of Pakistan shows that Govt and Political Parties changed constitutions for their own purposes and Ease
but still now they are not able to totally change the Pakistanis minds They knew their true Identity ,their ultimate Path they knew that our country is

ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF PAKISTAN​

The problem there my friend is that a state can either be Islamic or a Republic... not both at the same time

---------- Post added at 08:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:47 AM ----------

I think its impossible for Pakistan to be secular like Turkey, but I dont believe Pakistan is truly an Islamic country like Saudi Arabia or Iran either. Just turn on Ary channel and watch nach le, those are Pakistani Muslim girls dancing erotically with Pakistani Muslim boys on national television.

Saudi and Iran are not Islamic countries

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

haha...

I see some funny comments here by some indian members... Secularism is equality blah blah... why do people comment on things that they dont understand...

Secularism guys is the idea that religion should not have anything to do with the affairs of the State... It worked for the Christian Europe because the Church was oppressive and in cahoots with the Monarchies sucking the blood and wealth of their people... Now a debate on Secularism in the context of Islam is absolutely useless and nonsensical because firstly we do not have anything like the Christian clergy or Church as an institution who are supposed to be in power... i.e no such thing as theocracy in Islam because Islam gives authority to the people instead of the clergy and secondly when Islam was implemented Muslims actually progressed... our legacy and history is proof of that... But most importantly... the secularist fools within our ranks dont understand the simple fact that if you talk about removing Islam from the affairs of the state then all the rules and laws that Islam has given to Muslims to follow in the affairs of the State and public issues, they all have to be sidelined and corrupt and man made laws are to be implemented in their place... How can you separate Islam from the affairs of the State when Islam commands the abolishment of Riba and actually declares those who deal in Riba to be at war with God and God's messenger?? If you accept this rule then you are not a Secularist... if you reject this rule you are not a Muslim... there is no two ways about this...

People who talk about Secularism in Pakistan are of two types...

Paray likhay Jahil who have in most probability never read the Quran with meaning and understanding in their entire lives...

Paid agents of the west

They form a minority in Pakistan and are mostly from the elite class of our country... This includes both the Military and the Civil sections of our society...

 

[DaRk WaVe]

but I dont believe Pakistan is truly an Islamic country like Saudi Arabia or Iran either.

why do you want Pakistan to become KSA or a deluded Iran? Zia's mentality is still haunting this nation, you consider suppression of basic rights as 'good' then good luck.

Do i need to tell you the apparent difference that exists b/w God's Muslim countries & purely secular countries, the difference is clear & all visible you just need to take a look at it.

Just turn on Ary channel and watch nach le, those are Pakistani Muslim girls dancing erotically with Pakistani Muslim boys on national television.

So why do you even see 'em, Use the power weapon 'remote' & switch the channel & stop caring about what others are doing!

 

[DaRk WaVe]

Secularism my foot !

says a person living in Australia, a secular country with a Female Atheist Prime Minister. Why do most of the people with Secular Phobia live in countries which are purely Secular. I guess you have all the resources to move to KSA or Iran

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

says a person living in Australia, a secular country with a Female Atheist Prime Minister. Why do most of the people with Secular Phobia live in countries which are purely Secular. I guess you have all the resources to move to KSA or Iran

Just coz someone is living in a secular country means he has to be secular? Or there is a problem with his character?

Are you bingo the clown like that moderator Santro here?

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

I generally come across intelligent discussion on this forum... but some members here (both indian and pakistanis) are simply unbelievable... It must have to do with the quality of education... indeed we have suffered in this field... its terrible...

 

[DaRk WaVe]

Just coz someone is living in a secular country means he has to be secular? Or there is a problem with his character?

huh! I never that HE needs to be secular, I am just saying that he's enjoying all the facilites & rights in a secular country. If he's shooo Islamic he need to live in KSA or go join Jihad is A-stan, is it so hard to get

Are you bingo the clown like that moderator Santro here?

yeah, I am, what are you? Hizb Khalifa Delusional-ist

 

[DaRk WaVe]

I generally come across intelligent discussion on this forum... but some members here (both indian and pakistanis) are simply unbelievable... It must have to do with the quality of education... indeed we have suffered in this field... its terrible...

I guess a different POV from a delusional idea of Khalifat & more a practical realistic approach is certainly regarded as lack of education by Khilafat Delusional-ists