Does India need ACC Killer Version of Shaurya/ Agni 1?

[Gessler]

Operating from shallow waters and small islands which are prevalent in the IOR.. they could.
even then.. with a H-6 variant providing vectors .. they could launch Missiles much further out.

Almost all islands in IOR (especially those close to Malacca Strait) are under
IN radar surveillance 24x7. Air bases in A&N islands house MKIs currently
armed with 285-km Kh-59s and 130-km Kh-35E Switchblades, and would be
the first to receive the air-launched BrahMos-A1 in the near-future with 300km.

Among all the warships I've seen in PLAN, only the Type-052C Luyang-II DDG
has any chance of surviving an MKI attack, not even the Type-054A Jiangkai-II
FFGs have the capability to successfully evade the MKI threat and cross the
Malacca Strait, as it is I see no operational aircraft in PLAAF/PLANAF that can be
considered superior to MKI even in air combat.

The Tu-142 Bear-Fs can easily reach the area and they too can be equipped with
cruise missiles if the need arises. The Tu-142M has incredibly long range and
high speed and with MiG-29K escorts it too is a potent threat.

Secondly, it's very likely that mobile land-based BrahMos launchers can be
easily taken to A&N and stationed there (not to forget that almost all islands in
the chain are within BrahMos range of one another), this, coupled with high-end
radar systems rather much make the Malacca an impregable strait for PLAN
warships.

About the FACs getting 100km within a CBG, forget it. I doubt
even if the 054A FFGs can get 100km within Viraat/Vikramaditya CBGs without
suffering considerable attrition from both sea and air attacks which will
force them to retreat even before they get to threaten the CBG.

 

[shiv]

It happened in COD.

 

[SQ8]

Almost all islands in IOR (especially those close to Malacca Strait) are under
IN radar surveillance 24x7. Air bases in A&N islands house MKIs currently
armed with 285-km Kh-59s and 130-km Kh-35E Switchblades, and would be
the first to receive the air-launched BrahMos-A1 in the near-future with 300km.

Among all the warships I've seen in PLAN, only the Type-052C Luyang-II DDG
has any chance of surviving an MKI attack, not even the Type-054A Jiangkai-II
FFGs have the capability to successfully evade the MKI threat and cross the
Malacca Strait, as it is I see no operational aircraft in PLAAF/PLANAF that can be
considered superior to MKI even in air combat.

The Tu-142 Bear-Fs can easily reach the area and they too can be equipped with
cruise missiles if the need arises. The Tu-142M has incredibly long range and
high speed and with MiG-29K escorts it too is a potent threat.

Secondly, it's very likely that mobile land-based BrahMos launchers can be
easily taken to A&N and stationed there (not to forget that almost all islands in
the chain are within BrahMos range of one another), this, coupled with high-end
radar systems rather much make the Malacca an impregable strait for PLAN
warships.

About the FACs getting 100km within a CBG, forget it. I doubt
even if the 054A FFGs can get 100km within Viraat/Vikramaditya CBGs without
suffering considerable attrition from both sea and air attacks which will
force them to retreat even before they get to threaten the CBG.

I believe you are being fairly jingoistic here and are assuming constant optimistic scenarios without understanding the nature of the threat and warfare in that zone.
The IOR offers excellent sanctuary from both Surface Radar and long range surveillance.
You are also assuming in your optimism that the airspace is not contested..
For the IAF to mount constant ASW ops with Bear-F's(or even P-8Is) and provide escort and anti-shipping with MKI's without having to contest that with Chinese Forces is a bad assumption on your part.
Assuming even that in your jingoistic scenario the IAF manages to prevail over all this contest.. It will have to do so constant hampering of its surveillance operations.


I regretfully say this, but you have given a "I win all because X(that does not exist yet) and Y(that has not happened yet) and Z(which is unlikely)" will occur.
Please rethink your analysis.

When the US with its assured air dominance is thinking of littoral combat ships...the Indian Navy will not be ignoring it either unlike you just have.

 

[GR!FF!N]

It happened in COD.

when???I played every version of it.In MW3,those were cruise missiles..

 

[EzioAltaïr]

when???I played every version of it.In MW3,those were cruise missiles..

Are you sure about that? When we use the Submarine to destroy the whole Russian fleet? It looked like a ballistic missile to me.

 

[tvsram1992]

You already have the brahmos in the pipeline and which has been designed and optimized from the outset for that role.
No need to re-invent the wheel.

You think the enemy ACC will let the launch platform(Unless it is Sukhoi) to come in a range of 300km ?

 

[Gessler]

I believe you are being fairly jingoistic here and are assuming constant optimistic scenarios without understanding the nature of the threat and warfare in that zone.
The IOR offers excellent sanctuary from both Surface Radar and long range surveillance.
You are also assuming in your optimism that the airspace is not contested..
For the IAF to mount constant ASW ops with Bear-F's(or even P-8Is) and provide escort and anti-shipping with MKI's without having to contest that with Chinese Forces is a bad assumption on your part.
Assuming even that in your jingoistic scenario the IAF manages to prevail over all this contest.. It will have to do so constant hampering of its surveillance operations.


I regretfully say this, but you have given a "I win all because X(that does not exist yet) and Y(that has not happened yet) and Z(which is unlikely)" will occur.
Please rethink your analysis.

When the US with its assured air dominance is thinking of littoral combat ships...the Indian Navy will not be ignoring it either unlike you just have.

See, I don't ignore the odds. Thing is, Malacca is too heavily barricaded by ground-based and fighter-based radar surveillance (yes, the N011M BARS can map ground/sea targets while still searching for air threats), which overall makes the Chinese warships suffer considerable attrition, although some ships may still get through, there're force levels will be too small to stage an effective assault against a CBG well into Bay of Bengal.

About the air battle, maybe you should figure out yourself which ac have superior tech, what air force has more expierience, etc. Because that's how you can stage an assumption based on a analysis. There's as much chance as a PLAN FAC attacking and destroying IN carriers as there is as an IN FAC going down to South China Sea and destroying their Varyag under re-fit. Think again.

You just cannot press on into a Strait which scores are being mowed down by the enemy, warships are not foot soldiers that could be affordable to massacre. The same applies to Indian Navy if we try to cross the Strait and enter SCS.

 

[gslv mk3]

well Brahmos II will have scram jet tech and wont have 300 KM range limit(source for bolded part> Oscar sir)

but it won come before 2017

and we can just build of ACC killer for TD and choose to to not produce it

can LRCM can be used as a anti-ship missile?
first test-2014

HSTDV maybe?

 

[Gessler]

can LRCM can be used as a anti-ship missile?
first test-2014

HSTDV maybe?

Yes. It can be used as an ASCM, but I'm not sure if it's for ship-launched VLS cells or air-launched
like French ASMP-A.

 

[DARKY]

but aren't the Agni 1/ Shaurya better for this role?

Brahmos has 290 km range, Brahmos 2, though wont have range restriction, will come in 2017

on other hand Shaurya is already under tests

A 1 is already inducted and it can pack great punch with 1,000 KG payload ( Brahmos payload>300 KG)

these missiles, thus, can be converted in ACC killer, in relatively less time and cost

Shaurya certainly a good option... however do we need them when our need is restricted to IOR limit and our own waters.
Chinese DDG aswell as SSN fleet is incapable to reach or threaten any USN CBG.
Hence they invest in DF-21... which is more of a bluff... and far from reality.

Navy should rather invest in Shaurya for LACM role and AAD for tier-3 and PDV for tier-4 airdefense role along with Brahmos-2 for anti-ship roles... mounting them on a DDG with sufficient numbers would require large tonnage in excess of 10000tons.

PLAN is too weak to challenge a USN CBG in open waters hence the DF-21 drama.

While when we look at the real player which intends to challenge USN CBGs with intent and not for Public propaganda.
We see RuN going for 4 Nuclear powered Destroyers which are modifications of Kirovs... armed with Naval variants of S-500 and S-400 for tier-3 and tier-4 roles... as well as SSGN such as Kazan with tubes to launch Hypersonic missiles and 8-10 650 mm super fast Russian torpedoes.

At present we don't have any threat from USN neither are we capable of challenging them in Open waters... however for Other smaller navies there is Brahmos-1 block 3 capable of making steep dives and killing the ship in Carrier Killer mode... It has been tested both in India and Russia many times... mount them on a Su-30MKI along with SAP-518 Jamming pods and SAP-14 ECM you have range aswell as ECM to defeat the enemy detection upto the launch range.

 

[DARKY]

Well.. the Indian CBG's need to worry less about chinese CBG's in those waters.. and more about swarms of these(and improved versions)

armed with sufficient long range SSM's.. these boats pose a greater threat to an Indian Task force in those waters than a DF-21 or the like. They wont have to get too close..
But if they can manage to get within 100km of a IN CBG.. and suddenly create 25 or more tracks on the scope..
consternation and confusion will follow.

Bad thing is that EL/M-2248 MF-STAR can track a 5-8 meter High flying Cruise missile at 80km from Frigate's mast and about 120 Km from a Destroyer's mast and can engage 16 targets at once... plus it can be used in buddy mode and once radar can assign targets to the weapons of other radar.

 

[DARKY]

Yes. It can be used as an ASCM, but I'm not sure if it's for ship-launched VLS cells or air-launched
like French ASMP-A.

Don't have to use this... better concentrate on HSTDV and Brahmos-2.
However If this comes in service then it would be capable of Vertical launch as any Anti-ship missile... air launch will have more range may be about 1000 against 600km for surface launch.

 

[DARKY]

can LRCM can be used as a anti-ship missile?
first test-2014

HSTDV maybe?

HSTDV is a Hypersonic drone and looks like this.

These are strategic projects and you can get only little information about it... that too by mistake.

 

[DARKY]

You think the enemy ACC will let the launch platform(Unless it is Sukhoi) to come in a range of 300km ?

ECM and Jamming along with saturated attack from multiple angles.
You'd be surprised to know Jaguars are very capable in sinking a Carrier.. It was demonstrated during Malabar 2007 exercises... carrier was USS Kitty hawk.

 

[ANPP]

Almost all islands in IOR (especially those close to Malacca Strait) are under
IN radar surveillance 24x7. Air bases in A&N islands house MKIs currently
armed with 285-km Kh-59s and 130-km Kh-35E Switchblades, and would be
the first to receive the air-launched BrahMos-A1 in the near-future with 300km.

Here a little correction A&N doest host any MKI so far.
Currently KALIKUNDA airbase serves for defence of A&N island series.