Do I have the right to remain Ahmadi?

[Irfan Baloch]

@Irfan Baloch, @jaanbaaz,

Out of curiousity, are you sure the radicalization of your society started only during the Syria crisis or that you need to go back a few more decades?

the kind of radicalization I was referring to and you are suggesting started some decades ago when KSA started exposing its faith over the entire Muslim world ... look up the figures the Saudi spend runs in billions of dollars. Abdul Kalam's so called prediction (of told you so) doesnt apply and its a bit self pitty and self blame that hey its in Muslims nature so they shouldnt get the say to decide their own fate.

Syrian conflict is just an example of this Saudi experiment that goes from Baku Haram in Naigeria to Bali bombing.. I know Abdul Kalam didnt see that coming.

Abdul Kalam Azad and Ulmah hind dismissed the creation of Pakistan and like I said.. its the same ideology that has waged war against the state of Pakistan it rubbishes the constitution of Pakistan and refuses to accept the writ of the state

so what gives? do you think it will have any sympathy towards Indian state?


Abdul Kalam's thinking and mentality is the classical example of a slave and underclass which accepts the oppression of the prevailed and blames itself.
where the victim is mocked and criticized the most.. take example of victims of rape.. where even the women are very vocal against the victims.

while you Indian guys wont lay off .. and keep questioning our right to ask for a separate homeland

I will like to put your attention to those reports where BJP blowhards are telling people to leave India and go to Pakistan if they dont wont BJP.. is that not Modi-fication?

dont tell me you chose to miss those news because we didnt.

faiths are in clash with each other, if they think we are misguided by not following their faith,.

this is true of every faith

i wont see anyone who is strong believer of his own faith actually praising the beliefs of another faith. we all start our preaching by declaring that our faith is the one and everything else is false and fabricated

why Ahmedis be any different?

what I want for them is peace and security and respect as peaceful and full citizens of Pakistan. because I fear if I wont do that... there wont be anyone left to speak for me when my turn comes


so yes its a bit of selfish and self preservation that I empathize with the oppressed be it shia, Ahemdis, Agha Khanis, Hindus, Christians or Hindus etc

 

[M. Sarmad]

By taking my words out of context you are just attacking blindly! However, the words came from @Azlan Haider himself that the interpretation differs so I asked to show me...Then he brought in Linguistics so I asked him to show me.

Yes , there are different interpretations of the verse [33:40] .... Read the previous posts . And instead of assuming things , You must try to understand what Mirza Ghulam Ahmed says himself

The Removal of a Misunderstanding

 

[Dubious]

Yes , the interpretation differs .... Read the previous posts . And instead of assuming things , You must try to understand what Mirza Ghulam Ahmed says himself :

The Removal of a Misunderstanding

Thanks will read that over the weekend...

 

[Leader]

this is true of every faith

i wont see anyone who is strong believer of his own faith actually praising the beliefs of another faith. we all start our preaching by declaring that our faith is the one and everything else is false and fabricated

why Ahmedis be any different?

what I want for them is peace and security and respect as peaceful and full citizens of Pakistan. because I fear if I wont do that... there wont be anyone left to speak for me when my turn comes


so yes its a bit of selfish and self preservation that I empathize with the oppressed be it shia, Ahemdis, Agha Khanis, Hindus, Christians or Hindus etc

again yar this is not what I was discussing, there is no doubt that we are on the same page here.. and its not that rest of the sunnis are enjoying a very luxurious life.. do you really think you can go as sunni or shia in a shop where its placed that no qadiyani is allowed and ask them to be Pakistani first and not discriminate against qadiyanis on basis of faith? ofcourse not, we live under the same fear..
Ismails dont get persecuted because clearly they neither whine nor have any political agenda, neither do they claim to be rightful heir of Islam, while all else do..

a shia cannot represent interests of the muslims on basis of his sect.
a sunni cannot represent interest of the muslims on basis of his sect.
a ahmadi cannot represent interests of the muslims on basis of his sect.

as they all are cooked up to be shia, sunni, and ahmadi and not muslims.

let alone Pakistani first.

If I have to establish rule of law and system of justice, I have to throw away the glasses of bias towards the group of my origin, I must be Pakistani first and Pakistani last..

who do you think in this thread is like it? these ahmadis are equally responsible for forwarding their sectarian agenda, this is how they strive.. unfortunately ahmadi faith is directly in clash with sunni and especially shia faith. unless we dont give a damn about sectarian faith, we wont become muslims, let alone Pakistanis !

 

[Dubious]

Yes , there are different interpretations of the verse [33:40] .... Read the previous posts . And instead of assuming things , You must try to understand what Mirza Ghulam Ahmed says himself

The Removal of a Misunderstanding

Ok I have a little bit of time:

Before I start my honest question:

Why did Mr. Ghulam get revelations in Arabic and not Sanskrit or Hindi or Urdu (whatever was his local language) as each msgr or Rasool got his revelation in his native tongue!

Next from the site you gave me:

The fact is that the holy and pure revelation which God has vouchsafed me contains such words as nabi (prophet) and rasul (messenger). These words occur in my revelations not once or twice but hundreds of times. In the face of these revelations, how can this answer be correct that such words do not occur at all. Whereas such words now occur more often with greater frequency and clarity than before.

Even the Braheen-i-Ahmadiyya, published about 22 years ago, contains such words in abundance. One of the revelations published in the Braheen is as follows: HUWALLAZEE ARSALA RASOOLAHU BIL HUDAA WA DEENIL HAQQI LIYUZHIRAHUi.e., He it is Who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth, that He may make it prevail over every other religion (vide page 498). In this revelation I have been clearly designated as rasul (messenger).

Again close to it there is still another revelation: MUHAMMADUR-RASOOLULLAH WALLAZEENA MA'AHU ASHIDDAA' 'ALAL KUFFAARI RUHAMAA'U BAINAHUM i.e., Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah. And those who are with him are hard against the disbelievers, tender among themselves. In this divine revelation I have been called Muhammad and rasul (messenger) as well. Then again on page 557 we find the revelation: DUNYA MAIN AIK NAZEER AAYA i.e., a warner came unto the world. Its second reading is: DUNYA MAIN AIK NABI AAYA i.e., a prophet came unto the world. Similarly at several other places as well in the Braheen-i-Ahmadiyya I have been addressed as nabi (prophet) and rasul (messenger).

Hard against the disbelievers?

If it is argued that the Holy Prophet is KHATAM-AN- NABIYYEEN (Seal of the prophets) then how could a new prophet come after him? The answer to this is, of course, no prophet new or old could come in the sense in which you believe in the advent of Jesus Christ and believe also in his prophethood and continuity of his revelation for forty years, a period longer than that of the Holy Prophet's prophethood. such a belief, no doubt, is a grave sin and the Quranic verse: WA LAAKIR RASOOLULLAHI WA KHAATAM-AN NABIYYEEN i.e., but he is a Messenger of Allah and the Seal of the prophets and the hadith: LA NABIYYA BA`DEE i.e., there will be no prophet after me are positive proofs of the obvious falsehood of the erroneous doctrine. I am utterly opposed to such beliefs and repose true and firm faith in the Quranic verse: WA LAAKIR RASOOLULLAHI WA KHAATAM-AN NABIYYEEN i.e., He is the Messenger of Allah and the Seal of the prophets. This verse embodies a great prophecy which has escaped the notice of my opponents. It is this that after the advent of the Holy Prophet the divine gift of prophecy will remain withheld from the world till the end of time. It will not be possible for any man, be he a Hindu, a Jew, a Christian or a so-called Muslim to justify the use of the appellation nabi (prophet) for himself. All the approaches to this exalted office have been closed except the one of sirat-i-Siddiqui which is synonymous with complete annihilation in the love of the Holy Prophet. Thus he who seeks to approach God through it is made to wear the mantle of prophethood which is nothing but a part of the Holy Prophet's own prophethood. Such claimant to prophethood does not infringe the prophethood of Muhammad. it is so because his prophethood is neither self-subsisting nor independent. He derives all that is good in him not from his self but from the Holy Prophet, the fountainhead of all grace. He is, therefore, a prophet not for self-exaltation but for the glorification of the Holy Prophet. That is why he is known in heaven as Muhammad and Ahmad.

It all comes to this that Muhammad's prophethood after all came back to Muhammad and no one else i.e., one who claims this rank professes to be his shadow reflecting all his qualities in his person and acknowledging his debt to him. Thus the verse: MAA KAANA MUHAMMADUN ABAA AHADIN MIR RIJAALIKUM WA LAAKIR RASOOLULLAHI WA KHATAM-AN NABIYYEEN i.e., Muhammad is not the father of any of your men but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Seal of the prophets may be interpreted as: LAISA MUHAMMADUN ABAA AHADIM MIR RIJAALUD DUNYAA WALAAKIN HUWA ABUR RIJAALUL AAKHIRATI LIANNAHU KHAATAMAN NA- BIYYEENA WA LAA SABEEL ILAA FAYOODULLA MIN GHAIRI TAUSATUH i.e., Muhammad is not the father of any of the men of this world but is the father of the men of the next world because he is the Seal of the prophets and there is no approach open to God's benefactions but through his mediation. In short, my prophethood is due to my being Muhammad and Ahmad and not by myself: I have been vouchsafed this rank because of my complete annihilation in the Holy Prophet, and thus the sense of the expression KHAATAMAN NABIYYEEN (Seal of the prophets) is not at all interfered with. But the advent of an independent prophet like Jesus Christ will certainly be at variance with it.

Ok so that part is similar....I will read the rest later...need to catch a train a few hrs so cant concentrate too much...

 

[Myth_buster_1]

And who are these people to decide if someone is a muslim or not ?

isn't its between us and God ?

who are we to pass on the judgement on others ?

No sir, Islam is not a matter of one person and god. Its a way of life that the entire society needs to fallow. And yes, Quran is a book of judgement so pick it up and read. Ahmadi subject can be very easily judged, when allah says, their is only one god and the final prophet is Mohammed then their is no second third opinion here its a FACT! if you dont accept it then you are not a believer.

 

[VCheng]

their is only one god and the final prophet is Mohammed then their is no second third opinion here its a FACT!

These are not facts. These are religious beliefs.

Before you get upset, please know that a fact is "something that has really occurred or is actually the case". The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability, that is whether it can be proven to correspond to experience.

Therefore, whether there is one God or whether Muhammad is the final prophet are not facts, but religious beliefs.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Why should we declare ourselves kafirs? To make you happy? What nation on earth has laws to discriminate people based on sect or religion?

Your god declared all Muslims bastards and non-muslims who do not fallow him.

These are not facts. These are religious beliefs.

Before you get upset, please know that a fact is "something that has really occurred or is actually the case". The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability, that is whether it can be proven to correspond to experience.

Therefore, whether there is one God or whether Muhammad is the final prophet are not facts, but religious beliefs.

This is a religious topic not your atheistic belief class where god needs to be shown inorder to believe in him.

 

[VCheng]

This is a religious topic not your atheistic belief class where god needs to be shown inorder to believe in him.

Religious topics are banned on PDF, but thank you for admitting that belief in God is just that, a belief, not a fact.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Religious topics are banned on PDF, but thank you for admitting that belief in God is just that, a belief, not a fact.

This is a religious Topic. And i never said One GOD is not a fact.

 

[Contrarian]

the kind of radicalization I was referring to and you are suggesting started some decades ago when KSA started exposing its faith over the entire Muslim world ... look up the figures the Saudi spend runs in billions of dollars. Abdul Kalam's so called prediction (of told you so) doesnt apply and its a bit self pitty and self blame that hey its in Muslims nature so they shouldnt get the say to decide their own fate.

Syrian conflict is just an example of this Saudi experiment that goes from Baku Haram in Naigeria to Bali bombing.. I know Abdul Kalam didnt see that coming.

Abdul Kalam Azad and Ulmah hind dismissed the creation of Pakistan and like I said.. its the same ideology that has waged war against the state of Pakistan it rubbishes the constitution of Pakistan and refuses to accept the writ of the state

so what gives? do you think it will have any sympathy towards Indian state?


Abdul Kalam's thinking and mentality is the classical example of a slave and underclass which accepts the oppression of the prevailed and blames itself.
where the victim is mocked and criticized the most.. take example of victims of rape.. where even the women are very vocal against the victims.

while you Indian guys wont lay off .. and keep questioning our right to ask for a separate homeland

I will like to put your attention to those reports where BJP blowhards are telling people to leave India and go to Pakistan if they dont wont BJP.. is that not Modi-fication?

dont tell me you chose to miss those news because we didnt.


this is true of every faith

i wont see anyone who is strong believer of his own faith actually praising the beliefs of another faith. we all start our preaching by declaring that our faith is the one and everything else is false and fabricated

why Ahmedis be any different?

what I want for them is peace and security and respect as peaceful and full citizens of Pakistan. because I fear if I wont do that... there wont be anyone left to speak for me when my turn comes


so yes its a bit of selfish and self preservation that I empathize with the oppressed be it shia, Ahemdis, Agha Khanis, Hindus, Christians or Hindus etc

Abdul Kalam is the ex-President of India and the ex Chief of ISRO as well Chief Indian Scientist in whose honour the Under water Ballistic missiles of India are named - the 'K series' missiles.
He remains the only human after which Ballistic Missiles have been named by India. All our other missiles are named after elements of the earth.

You are referring to Abul Kalam Azad - the first Education Minister of India under whom many pioneering educational institutes were started including the IIT's.

 

[VCheng]

And i never said One GOD is not a fact.

"One God" is a religious belief, not a fact.

Back to the topic, which is about religious freedoms in Pakistan, not about religion per se.

 

[Contrarian]

Religious topics are banned on PDF, but thank you for admitting that belief in God is just that, a belief, not a fact.

Isnt it obvious that Religion is based on belief.
Only idiots tend to shove it down others throat that its a 'fact' and 'science'.

To the more sensible believers - we say - whether or not its a fact, I believe and so therefore it is a fact for me.

 

[VCheng]

Isnt it obvious that Religion is based on belief.
Only idiots tend to shove it down others throat that its a 'fact' and 'science'.

To the more sensible believers - we say - whether or not its a fact, I believe and so therefore it is a fact for me.

Facts are facts. Beliefs are beliefs. Any "fact for me" is only a belief, for facts are verifiably universal. Having said that, respect for anyone's religious beliefs should be equal, specially from the State's point of view in terms of legal protections, which brings us back to the real topic of this thread.

 

[Leader]

Abdul Kalam is the ex-President of India and the ex Chief of ISRO as well Chief Indian Scientist in whose honour the Under water Ballistic missiles of India are named - the 'K series' missiles.
He remains the only human after which Ballistic Missiles have been named by India. All our other missiles are named after elements of the earth.

You are referring to Abul Kalam Azad - the first Education Minister of India under whom many pioneering educational institutes were started including the IIT's.

agni, pirthawi etc are elements of earth?