Discussion: Is Pakistan's economy failing because it is not a secular nation?

[FuturePAF]

Talking about democracy, 99 % of our intellectuals and elites believe and support democracy, including the military.

Our first direct Presidential Election was in 2004 and the winner is Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, ex Military General. He won 2 election and very pro democracy. For the last 2 election, Jokowi rival is Prabowo, ex Military General.

There is mindset in our Military saying TNI ( Armed Force) is from people and for people. First Military General elected in 1945 is Sudirman, he was teacher before and Muhammadiyah Activist. Muhammadiyah is second largest Islamic organization in Indonesia. He lead our military during Independence war and very respected. The most famous street in Indonesia is named after him, Sudirman street that become famous due to it is located in the heart of our business district. Then there is SCBD (Sudirman Central Business District )

Military dont show opposition when their political power is eliminated gradually between 1998 - 2004. Their leaders come to politics after retiring. Some of Jokowi supporters are ex Military General like Luhut Binsar Pangaribuan ( Investment Minister), Muldoko ( Head of President Staff) and Hadi Cahyanto ( Land Minister). Hadi Cahyanto previously is our Armed Force General ( 2019 -2021 )

What was done to limit the military’s influence between 1998-2004, without it upsetting the social order? Also, how did the shift affect the economy?

 

[Indos]

What was done to limit the military’s influence between 1998-2004, without it upsetting the social order? Also, how did the shift affect the economy?

Decreasing their seats and power in parliament. Making Indonesian governance system decentralized where Governors and Majors are elected in local election instead of appointed by President as happened during Soekarno and Soeharto era. During Soeharto regimes, many Governors and Majors are from Military

Myanmar is trying to follow our way when Aung San Su Ki came to power. But in Myanmar military then take the power again.

There is no social order upset as people are pro democracy and respect their intelectuals. Our intellectual and civil political power are united as well in term of the need to bring back military to barrack ( becoming professional soldiers ).

During transition, Habibie as President has Luhut Binsar Panjaitan in his side. Luhut is very respected General. There was moment where Prabowo Subianto came to President Palace with gun and he wanted to meet Habibie. Prabowo was Kostrad Commander during that time and he has close ally with Kodam Jaya Commander ( Safrie Samdoedin ) and Kopassus (Special Force), Prabowo is former Kopassus Commander. Luhut then warn Prabowo to let go his gun or being shot

Kostrad is the most modern troops around 20.000 strong. This is why only Kostrad that operate Leopard Tanks

Prabowo with Kopassus Special Force (around 8000 strong and their base near Jakarta)

Kodam Jaya was lead by Safrie Samsoedin. Kodam Jaya is military force to defend Jakarta, so they are inside Jakarta already.

Safrie Samsoedin with Soeharto inside APC in Bosnia

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After the incident in Palace, Prabowo was sucked from Military.

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Indonesia Armed Force during that period is lead by Wiranto. What he did to surpress any attempt by any potential Military General to do any coup is to bring many Marine force into Jakarta. Marine comes from Navy, it has different chain of command with Army

Wiranto is pro democracy and he was Armed Force General during Soeharto period. Habibie appointed him as Minister of Defense so he once again the leader of Armed Force.

Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, former Armed Force General are also inside Habibie Ministry. He is pro democracy as well. He become President in 2004-2014.

Luhut Binsar Panjaitan with MBS

 

[Indos]

Dont forget, in the past Indonesian Police is under our Armed Force command. Habibie split it those two, Police becomes independent under President.

Our Police is rather different they have military aspect and involved in revolutionary war and also deployed to region like Aceh, East Timor, and Papua.

Our Police Budget is relatively similar with our Armed Force budget and they are well equipped.

Police Force

 

[epebble]

In which secular country are Shias, Ahmadis, and Christians treated like sub humans and denied basic rights such as housing, employment, and educational opportunities? which secular nation has blasphemy laws? and if religious extremism was just confined to a few societal pockets then why are rabidly fanatic organisations and parties such as the TLP, JUI, and JuD so widely followed even in urban cities? why do regressive mullahs have so much influence and respect in society?

Lets see you try to address my arguments without accusing me of being Indian. I know it is hard but try.

I think your perspective is distorted by viewing an Islamic Republic through what we call in U.S. as the Jeffersonian concept of 'All men are created equal'. To get a proper understanding of the principles behind how an Islamic nation like Pakistan classifies its citizens, see:

Jinnah’s citizens​

Jinnah’s citizens

Today, we have three distinct classes of citizens.

www.dawn.com

 

[dani92]

Please no arguments or insults. We just want to hear people's opinions.

@Rusty2 Claims that Pakistan's economy is failing due to it not being a secular nation, and the west's economy is flourishing due to that same secularism.
(Please correct me Rusty if that's not what you claim)

I disagree and I think the problems are more due to the incompetent governance and bad economic policies.

Or maybe he's right and we had the most competent leadership, the most effective economic policies, employment readily available, tons of natural resources like oils, minerals and gas.

Ishaq Dar is/was a total magician, our great national leaders like Nawaz Sharif, Shahbaz Sharif, and Zardari were perfect governors but secularism was missing hence today it is failing.

@PakFactor @That Guy @Al_Muhannad @epebble @ziaulislam @SaadH @Erieye @Mirzali Khan @_NOBODY_ @313ghazi @MastanKhan @SQ8 @Great Janjua @FuturePAF

Pakistan is already secular military ruling country and when jannah founded Pakistan on Islamic identity he didn’t mean Pakistan should be Islamists by rather a nation for Muslims just like turkey and Israel it’s more of a cultural thing then a theological/ideological thing.

 

[Indos]

What was done to limit the military’s influence between 1998-2004, without it upsetting the social order? Also, how did the shift affect the economy?

A New Political System and the Start of Recovery

Bacharuddin Jusuf Habibie, vice-president in Suharto's last cabinet and thus - by law - replacing Suharto as Indonesia's next president, turned to the economic technocrats to deal with the ongoing financial crisis. This resulted in a fourth agreement with the IMF. It was signed in June 1998 and allowed the budget deficit to widen further while new funds were pumped into the economy.

Within the time-span of a couple of months there were some signs of recovery. The rupiah began to strengthen from mid-June 1998 (when it had fallen to 16,000 rupiah per dollar) to 8,000 rupiah per dollar in October 1998, inflation eased drastically, the Jakarta stock exchange started to rise and non-oil exports started to revive towards the end of the year. The banking sector (center of the crisis) remained fragile as the number of non-performing loans were high and banks were very hesitant to loan money. Moreover, the banking sector had caused a sharp increase in government debt as this debt was primarily due to the issuance of bank restructuring bonds. But, albeit fragile, Indonesia's economy improved gradually through 1999, partly due to an improving international environment which caused a rise in export revenues.

Asian Financial Crisis - Cause & Effect | Indonesia Investments

The financial crisis in Asia in the late 1990s had a huge impact on Indonesia, evolving from a financial crisis into a social and political crisis.

www.indonesia-investments.com

 

[N.Siddiqui]

It's not an Islamic state either, it's a mix and match, Hodge podge of a confused country still trying to come to terms with reality and that why Pakistan was created, at the first place.

The military thinks it is created for them.

 

[Sayfullah]

A little bit yes. Religion much more, in my case at least.

So we can safely say that having a state religion effects the morale of a soldier and separating religion from state (secularism) also effects the morale of a soldier. When you have to fight against an enemy who’s waging an ideological war on you, one that tries to appeal to the religion majority of the soldiers adhere to, IMO state religion can be an important factor in it and maybe even a deciding factor.

 

[TheSolution]

Pakistan is already secular military ruling country and when jannah founded Pakistan on Islamic identity he didn’t mean Pakistan should be Islamists by rather a nation for Muslims just like turkey and Israel it’s more of a cultural thing then a theological/ideological thing.

That's what I'm trying to say, Islamic influence in politics is very limited.

 

[PanzerKiel]

So we can safely say that having a state religion effects the morale of a soldier and separating religion from state (secularism) also effects the morale of a soldier. When you have to fight against an enemy who’s waging an ideological war on you, one that tries to appeal to the religion majority of the soldiers adhere to, IMO state religion can be an important factor in it and maybe even a deciding factor.

It affects, but to a certain level. However, once you are in active contact with an enemy, you fight more for yourself and your buddies around instead of the whole country. Active combat is more of a survival thing afterall.

 

[TheSolution]

It affects, but to a certain level. However, once you are in active contact with an enemy, you fight more for yourself and your buddies around instead of the whole country. Active combat is more of a survival thing afterall.

Do you feel anything after killing the first few people?

I don't know, like guilt or restraint, or feel as if you are doing a bad thing

(Not implying you are doing a bad thing here but I've seen some videos and talking about it is kinda easy but sometimes you feel sympathy of sorts towards the person)

 

[PanzerKiel]

Do you feel anything after killing the first few people?

I don't know, like guilt or restraint, or feel as if you are doing a bad thing

(Not implying you are doing a bad thing here but I've seen some videos and talking about it is kinda easy but sometimes you feel sympathy of sorts towards the person)

Depends man to man. For me....

 

[TheDarkKnight]

PPP and MQM are secular parties and one can see their track record in Sindh.

 

[ThunderCat]

I am simply saying that you are blaming the symptom. not the disease. Corruption, overpopulation, etc are all symptoms. The disease is our mindset. We are unwilling to move into the 21st century. We want to turn back time to the 7th.
Case and point, everything we are suffering through, China was as well. Plus they had the added burden of communism. They were also over populated, had (and still have) a lot of corruption. But they are now the 2nd largest economy in the world. Why? because Deng literally invited the west to his country and had them teach the Chinese how the modern universe works. The Chinese didn't let any Ideology, dogmas, or religion stop them from learning from the west.

China implemented the 1 child policy when they were living at over 500 million. Overpopulation is no the result of our mindset, but our agricultural policies.

It was our excessive food production that caused overpopulation. Look at Balochistan for example. Larger than Bangladesh but only ten million people.

If we had left our landscapes alone and not produced so many farms, we would have had a stable population:

 

[ThunderCat]

Pakistan also enjoyed Aid.
South Korean population was 25 mill in 1960. It's about 50 mill now. Doubled. So not sure what exactly you are saying.
It was actually Pakistan that asked the Americans for the green revolution. Can't blame them for giving us something we asked for.

Yes we were wrong to ask them for green revolution because it gave us overpopulation. More food means more people. Stable food supply means stable population.

South Korea's population doubled and eventually stabilized considering they live in a colder zone.

In case you didn't notice, Pakistan's population has more than quadrupled since 1947 and is still growing!