Discussion: Is Pakistan's economy failing because it is not a secular nation?

[TheSolution]

Every country has corruption but it hurts less when there's much less people to look after. Gulf Arab states spend only a fraction on their people but it's more than enough since they have less of their kind to look after.

Corruption existed in our early years of independence. But we still enjoyed better living conditions as there were less people to look after back then.

Even if you ran the most honest administration, how do you propose fostering so many millions of people? What would you be able to do?

It is unjust and unfair to compare the levels of incompetency and corruption in Pakistan to other countries.

Everything is a spectrum and Pakistan has extreme levels of it, whereas it is in a fragile position and cannot tolerate much at all due to how unstable it is.

On top of that corruption, are the careless incompetent leaders that are unfit to govern a nation of over 200 million people.

Nepotism and lack of meritocracy is the biggest issue we face. If there's a little bit of corruption but strictly competent leadership, that's somewhat workable.

But you don't have either, you have careless unqualified people attempting to run an entire nation but their primary focus is money and power.

Fix this and all other problems will be fixed.

 

[TheSolution]

Gulf Arab states spend only a fraction on their people but it's more than enough since they have less of their kind to look after.

This is ridiculous logic and wouldn't apply in our context.

Firstly even if we had just 10 people, your leaders would keep them in poverty by giving just enough so they stay alive while eating the rest.

It's about greed and taking as much as possible. Only meeting the bare minimum of the people's needs.

Secondly the solution is not to lower the population to support corruption... that's ridiculous. It is to just get rid of corruption itself.

Regardless your leaders have no idea how to properly manage the few things they do try focus on - because they are incompetent and unqualified. The people they assign to institutions are assigned based on nepotism, friendships and personal business deals. Not who is the most capable for the job. We need meritocracy.

 

[Zornix]

In a largely uneducated country that happens to be nearly entirely Muslim, minorities do tend to be treated in horrid ways. Especially when extremism in the form of religion exists in society.

Exactly, hence Pakistan is in no way secular like you claimed.

A democratic one which has an over 95% population of Muslims who find blasphemous people incredibly insulting, could perhaps be linked to aspects of uneducated and extreme masses, but it's a want of the majority of people regardless.

See, you are further validating that Pakistan is not secular at all. If arresting or even lynching people for hurting their precious religious feelings is seen as okay by the majority then it is wholly un-secular.

Because other parties are viewed as more liberals and too irreligious, so they lean towards those parties even if they don't entirely agree with all the policies.

Dude, do realise that in Pakistan anyone slightly to the left of extreme Right wing mullah politics is viewed as "Liberal" and "Leftist". Such extremist parties exist to begin with BECAUSE their so called "ideals" and "values" are held in high regard by most people in Pakistan.

Also on what basis are you calling those parties extreme?

I think calling for sharia laws, subjugation of women (forced face veiling, stoning to death, not allowing them to work, etc.), supporting blasphemy laws, public executions, denying basic rights to non-Muslims, forced conversions is very much extreme. Oh and calling for violent jihad, terrorist attacks, and establishing a caliphate by force in India and throughout the subcontinent in front of cheering crowds in the thousands is not extremist at all. These are the same parties which actively oppose and have a history of violently protesting against peace deals and normalization of relations with India and term it as "betrayal" of Islam and Pakistan.

Being a secular nation doesn't mean your nation is irreligious.

So again, uneducated religious folk are easily lured into the traps of unqualified and uneducated mullahs.

When dimwit regressive mullahs have representation in parliament, play a key role in politics, have widespread following and respect in society, and barely face any resistance from the public besides isolated urban pockets, it is more than just a few mislead and uneducated religious folk. How on earth is a nation in which one particular religion plays a large part in public spheres of life and where Islamic religious symbols and verses are plastered EVERYWHERE from parliament buildings to high courts to railway stations in any way "secular"? the only thing which separates Pakistan from being a full blown theocracy is the top 5% who are mostly western educated types and have nothing in common with the rest 95% of masses.

 

[ThunderCat]

This is ridiculous logic and wouldn't apply in our context.

Firstly even if we had just 10 people, your leaders would keep them in poverty by giving just enough so they stay alive while eating the rest.

It's about greed and taking as much as possible. Only meeting the bare minimum of the people's needs.

Secondly the solution is not to lower the population to support corruption... that's ridiculous. It is to just get rid of corruption itself.

Regardless your leaders have no idea how to properly manage the few things they do try focus on - because they are incompetent and unqualified. The people they assign to institutions are assigned based on nepotism, friendships and personal business deals. Not who is the most capable for the job. We need meritocracy.

Most of this has already been addressed in my previous post. We already had corruption back in the day but less people to look after and less pollution to deal with.

Why do you think our standard of living back then was so much better?

Every country has corruption but with less people to look after, it's much more bearable. Granted our government contributed to overpopulation with their aggressive agricultural policies, but the fact is corruption hurts a lot more with more and more people to fend for.

If you had so many cattle to manage no matter you careless you are, you won't have an easier time managing more thrown at you. But take all the blame for it.

 

[mudassar93]

for the past 70 years cleanshave howard,mit, oxford educated begairats have been ruling and look where that has brought us ? Pakistan needs mullahs who have to guts to implent the law and teach some values to most abc educated who are mostly dispots of highest order and currupt to core and play video video at the highest level , shameless creatures .

 

[ThunderCat]

It is unjust and unfair to compare the levels of incompetency and corruption in Pakistan to other countries.

A lot of corruption in Western countries comes in the form of socialist feudalism. Here in Canada many are homeless, shelters are trash, public housing is grossly under funded.

The government puts it's responsibilities and duties on the people while taxing the f**ck out of them.

As an example people in Toronto are currently banned from listing their own basements on short-term rentals which is 28 days or less. The government is trying to protect the long term housing market by forcing homeowners to provide long term housing while paying thousands of dollars in property taxes.

That's just one of thousands of examples of legalized corruption.

The only reason why homeless and poor people are not as numerous as in Pakistan is because the population is low thanks to the cold.

 

[Rusty2]

Because there are levels of it, Pakistan would rank close to the most corrupt.

so at what level does corruption turn nations into Pakistan?
Corruption in the US, Korea, China, etc are in the billions of dollars. Are you saying there are more than billion dollar corruption going on in Pakistan?

 

[FuturePAF]

Pakistan people basically support Military and it is well recorded in Pew Research pooling. Only after IK being ousted then you guys start accusing Military.

Stop blaming Islam

Was Indonesia in a similar predicament until the late 90s?

 

[Rusty2]

South Korea enjoyed American economic aid. Plus their population has remained stable, much thanks to their northern climate. This has prevented them from producing so much food and as a result prevented booming their population which would have had bad consequences.

Today they rely on foreign imports to sustain their food supply which is mostly seasonal.

Americans actually encouraged our irrigation programs without prior ecological evaluation which resulted in a population explosion and massive poverty. More food means more people.

They thought encouraging us to grow so much food we were helping our rural class but as food population measurements show, population sizes depend on food supply, not the other way around.



Every country has corruption but it hurts less when there's much less people to look after. Gulf Arab states spend only a fraction on their people but it's more than enough since they have less of their kind to look after.

Corruption existed in our early years of independence. But we still enjoyed better living conditions as there were less people to look after back then.

Even if you ran the most honest administration, how do you propose fostering so many millions of people? What would you be able to do?

Pakistan also enjoyed Aid.
South Korean population was 25 mill in 1960. It's about 50 mill now. Doubled. So not sure what exactly you are saying.
It was actually Pakistan that asked the Americans for the green revolution. Can't blame them for giving us something we asked for.
China has over a billion people and corruption is baked into their system. Yet they still managed to become the world's second largest economy.
Blaming Pakistan's ills on corruption is like blaming your headache due to it being a Monday. Sure, you might get headaches on Mondays, but Mondays are not causing your headaches.
Corruption is the symptom not the disease. The disease is us not willing to learn how to live and thrive in a post industrial age. We insist on wanting to turn back the clock so we can live like people did 1400 years ago in a desert oasis.

Side note. 13 pages and no one addressed my post on the 3rd page. The entire reason we are here.
This is the problem. No one is willing to listen and digest an argument. People her just want the zingers and one liners to somehow prove they are superior.

 

[FuturePAF]

so at what level does corruption turn nations into Pakistan?
Corruption in the US, Korea, China, etc are in the billions of dollars. Are you saying there are more than billion dollar corruption going on in Pakistan?

Probably something like a South American country, perhaps Argentina.

Btw, on the topic, upon further reflection, it must be the abuse of religion; excessive Puritanism, not the religion itself; which instructs us to be humble in ways of faith, that contributed to the economic unproductiveness of society, much like Spain compared to the Dutch in 16th century Europe. Dutch industriousness and culture of growing relative tolerance attracted innovative skilled merchants and craftsmen.

Not carrying out land reforms, soon after independence left too much power in the hands of landed elites. Elites that had to be placated to keep their loyalty, similar to France before the revolution, with its different “estates” or classes of people; 2/3 classes; clergy and aristocrats (nobility/large land owners) didn’t have to pay taxes while the third class; the majority peasant class paid taxes, not just to the king and the government but to the aristocrats and the clergy.

Pakistan in many ways is similar to a mix of Spain and France from the 16th century. These countries were sustained by their resource rich empires, France still is. Pakistan doesn’t have that luxury.

But what would a truly “secular” Pakistan even look like? Faith is the basis of many beneficial stabilizers like morality/“natural law” and a work ethic. A fully secular society may have totally arbitrary laws, if society is co-opted by ideologies like communism and principled leaders aren’t in charge. An appeal to god can be invoked in many societies to keep even rulers in check; such as the “mandate of heaven” in China or the preamble of the U.S. constitution; “We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, amongst them life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness”.

 

[Indos]

Was Indonesia in a similar predicament until the late 90s?

I dont know as there are no survey about it. Indonesians I believe has strong urge to apply democracy since we were under democracy since our independence movement. First fair election is made in 1955 where Communist party gets number 4 most popular.

The fact is Indonesian general people never do demonstration during 1997-1998, it was basically university students movement + intellectuals that are supported by media and journalist.

There are survey about democracy after we embrace it and large majority support democracy. Based on around 2012-2014 survey in Pew Research, Pakistani believe in democracy is low. You can try to Google it and bring the survey to this thread for further discussion

First democracy used parliamentary system and it was not popular since the government frequently fall by vote of no confident, this made Soekarno step in and made him authoritarian ruler since 1959 -1966.

Soekarno is not Military, he is engineer

 

[FuturePAF]

I dont know as there are no survey about it. Indonesians I believe has strong urge to apply democracy since we were under democracy since our independence movement. First fair election is made in 1955 where Communist party gets number 4 most popular.

The fact is Indonesian general people never do demonstration during 1997-1998, it was basically university students movement + intellectuals that are supported by media and journalist.

There are survey about democracy after we embrace it and large majority support democracy. Based on around 2012-2014 survey in Pew Research, Pakistani believe in democracy is low. You can try to Google it and bring the survey to this thread for further discussion

First democracy used parliamentary system and it was not popular since the government frequently fall by vote of no confident, this made Soekarno step in and made him authoritarian ruler since 1959 -1966.

Soekarno is not Military, he is engineer

Thanks for the the insight.

 

[ThunderCat]

Pakistan also enjoyed Aid.
South Korean population was 25 mill in 1960. It's about 50 mill now. Doubled. So not sure what exactly you are saying.
It was actually Pakistan that asked the Americans for the green revolution. Can't blame them for giving us something we asked for.
China has over a billion people and corruption is baked into their system. Yet they still managed to become the world's second largest economy.
Blaming Pakistan's ills on corruption is like blaming your headache due to it being a Monday. Sure, you might get headaches on Mondays, but Mondays are not causing your headaches.
Corruption is the symptom not the disease. The disease is us not willing to learn how to live and thrive in a post industrial age. We insist on wanting to turn back the clock so we can live like people did 1400 years ago in a desert oasis.

Side note. 13 pages and no one addressed my post on the 3rd page. The entire reason we are here.
This is the problem. No one is willing to listen and digest an argument. People her just want the zingers and one liners to somehow prove they are superior.

Aside from your first few paragraphs, you seem to be further emphasizing my arguments. I can adress those first paragraphs if you like.

 

[Rusty2]

Aside from your first few paragraphs, you seem to be further emphasizing my arguments. I can adress those first paragraphs if you like.

I am simply saying that you are blaming the symptom. not the disease. Corruption, overpopulation, etc are all symptoms. The disease is our mindset. We are unwilling to move into the 21st century. We want to turn back time to the 7th.
Case and point, everything we are suffering through, China was as well. Plus they had the added burden of communism. They were also over populated, had (and still have) a lot of corruption. But they are now the 2nd largest economy in the world. Why? because Deng literally invited the west to his country and had them teach the Chinese how the modern universe works. The Chinese didn't let any Ideology, dogmas, or religion stop them from learning from the west.

 

[Indos]

Thanks for the the insight.

Talking about democracy, 99 % of our intellectuals and elites believe and support democracy, including the military.

Our first direct Presidential Election was in 2004 and the winner is Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, ex Military General. He won 2 election and very pro democracy. For the last 2 election, Jokowi rival is Prabowo, ex Military General.

There is mindset in our Military saying TNI ( Armed Force) is from people and for people. First Military General elected in 1945 is Sudirman, he was teacher before and Muhammadiyah Activist. Muhammadiyah is second largest Islamic organization in Indonesia. He lead our military during Independence war and very respected. The most famous street in Indonesia is named after him, Sudirman street that become famous due to it is located in the heart of our business district. Then there is SCBD (Sudirman Central Business District )

Military dont show opposition when their political power is eliminated gradually between 1998 - 2004. Their leaders come to politics after retiring. Some of Jokowi supporters are ex Military General like Luhut Binsar Pangaribuan ( Investment Minister), Muldoko ( Head of President Staff) and Hadi Cahyanto ( Land Minister). Hadi Cahyanto previously is our Armed Force General ( 2019 -2021 )