Discussion: Is Pakistan's economy failing because it is not a secular nation?

[Indos]

It is a lack of quality education in both in the Islamic sense and STEM sense.

Pakistan even has tons of ghost schools where people get paid as workers and no even attends.

The religious madrassas are not even monitored, you have random tribal bearded men teaching young kids who otherwise failed school or didn't get a chance to go, sometimes you even have Afghan Soviet war veterans teaching them.... the original mujahideen.

Pakistan government must regulate Madrasah and help them improve their teaching.

In Indonesia the best high school is Madrasah (state owned), and within top 20 best high schools in Indonesia, several are state madrasah.

Basically state school which is also free are the best schools in Indonesia, including its hundreds state universities. Our Finance Minister comes from state university (University of Indonesia).

70 % of Indonesian top ten highschools are state/public schools, and state schools are also dominated top best high school in Jakarta around 70-80 % among top 10 high schools as well.

I have made a thread about that.

Talking about religious schools, in Indonesia we have had many state Islamic universities that mostly learn about Islam like Al Azhar University in Cairo. Most of our religious preachers come from that. First after graduating from Madrasah, they continue the education in Islamic University teaching about Islam.

 

[Indos]

Pakistan government must regulate Madrasah and help them improve their teaching.

In Indonesia the best high school is Madrasah (state owned), and within top 20 best high schools in Indonesia, several are state madrasah.

Basically state school which is also free are the best schools in Indonesia, including its hundreds state universities. Our Finance Minister comes from state university (University of Indonesia).

70 % of Indonesian top ten highschools are state/public schools, and state schools are also dominated top best high school in Jakarta around 70-80 % among top 10 high schools as well.

I have made a thread about that.

Talking about religious schools, in Indonesia we have had many state Islamic universities that mostly learn about Islam like Al Azhar University in Cairo. Most of our religious preachers come from that. First after graduating from Madrasah, they continue the education in Islamic University teaching about Islam.

I dont talk nonsense, but with prove

Best High Schools in Indonesia.

The first one is MAN (Madrasah) INSAN CENDEKIA. Majority (70 %) of top 10 are state owned/ public school (free of charge). The rank is based on the nation wide test result (2020-2021) to get into state owned universities ( top and best universities in Indonesia) seats.

MAN (Madrasah Aliyah Negeri)= State owned Madrasah
SMAN (Sekolah Menengah Atas Negeri) =State owned High School
SMAS (Sekolah Menengah Atas Swasta) = Private owned High School

BREAKING: 10 SMA-MA Terbaik Indonesia 2021 Versi Nilai UTBK

LTMPT baru saja merilis daftar Top 1000 Sekolah tahun 2021, Jumat (1/10). Perangkingan ini berdasarkan nilai UTBK 2020 dan 2021.

www.detik.com

Non Madrasah is also quite Islamic. This is public school (number 3 best nationwide)

Indonesia Education Minister usually come from Muhammadiyah. Muhammadiyah leaders always become Education Minister since 1990's. Only in this 2019-2024 period the Minister is Nadiem Makariem, Gojek founder.

Religious Minister usually comes from NU (Nahdatul Ulama), madrasah is under their management

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Muhammadiyah (Arabic: محمدية, romanized: Muḥammadiyyah, lit. 'followers of Muhammad'); officially Muhammadiyah Society (Indonesian: Persyarikatan Muhammadiyah) is a major Islamic non-governmental organization in Indonesia.[2] The organization was founded in 1912 by Ahmad Dahlan in the city of Yogyakarta as a reformist socioreligious movement, advocating ijtihad - individual interpretation of Qur'an and Sunnah, as opposed to Taqlid - conformity to the traditional interpretations propounded by the ulama.[3] Since its establishment, Muhammadiyah has adopted a reformist platform mixing religious and secular education,[4] primarily as a way to promote the upward mobility of Muslims toward a 'modern' community and to purify Indonesian Islam of local syncretic practices.[4] It continues to support local culture and promote religious tolerance in Indonesia, while a few of its higher education institutions are attended mostly by non-Muslims, especially in East Nusa Tenggara and Papua provinces. The group also runs a large chain of charity hospitals,[2] and operated 128 universities as of the late 1990s.[5]

In 2008, Muhammadiyah was considered the second largest Islamic organization in Indonesia with 29 million members.[3] Although Muhammadiyah leaders and members are often actively involved in shaping the politics in Indonesia, Muhammadiyah is not a political party. It has devoted itself to social and educational activities.

Muhammadiyah - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[I.R.A]

Tata is a good example. In a secular society, they are not disfavored for being Zoroastrians. They run steel mills, auto plants, chemical industries, software business, national airline etc., Whereas in a non-secular society, they would be disfavored and driven out of economy and society.

Neither india nor Pakistan is secular …. these societies are based on one simple principle "Survival of the fittest", india may be providing better opportunities for that. Secular or non Secular has nothing to do in this region. Parsi folks were already well established. They simply had the mentality to innovate, diversify and upgrade … pure hard work, no shortcuts.

However, india did something very wise in the beginning … got rid of Rajay Mahrajay etc. and kept the military in check. A tea seller in Pakistan can never think of rising to the level of PM.

Pakistan government must regulate Madrasah and help them improve their teaching.

Pakistan government (when it gets a proper one) should replace all these Madrasah with proper schools.

 

[ThunderCat]

Lack of secularism does obstruct progress but this is not a case for it. At least from what I can see.

 

[Zhukov]

Its not that simple. And there are no parallels like that.

How do you define secular and religious?
If by religious you mean illogical fanatics that roam freely nurtured by a very bad social and economic structure like in our country or lets say Afghanistan etc. then yes it is a massive hurdle and you cannot progress even in 100 years.

If religious means loving and practicing what you believe in, having a society that have a dominant Religious outlook in all traditions along with tolerating what other believes but not allowed any redicle practices or used by Government to produce militants for achieving political goals like in UAE, Qatar, Malaysia, Indonesia etc. Then it is not a hurdle.

and what do you mean by secular when you put it in parallel to religious?
You mean anti religion? Well we have countries like North Korea, And not so distant past Soviet states and other communist failed states in africa, asia and south americas.

But by secular if you mean being tolerant, open, logic driven society where everyone is allowed to practice their faith meanwhile there is no majority faith identity that is promoted then western world is a perfect example of this system.

We can discuss it to death. But at the end We all see the world in eyes of our own experience. Every people form their view considering their own society.
Tolerance should be their no matter what society we are.

 

[Bilal.]

Is Pakistan’s economy failing because the moon is round(ish)?

Pakistan’s economy is failing due to bad policies, unsustainable structural issues and an unwillingness to reform and because instead of trying to resolve the actual issues we tend to start selling our own munjun on all issues, case in point: this thread.

 

[TheSolution]

Pakistan’s economy is failing due to bad policies, unsustainable structural issues and an unwillingness to reform and because instead of trying to resolve the actual issues we tend to start selling our own munjun on all issues, case in point: this thread.

 Facts

Pakistanis need to march against these corrupt faces and kick them out, they purposefully implement non-beneficial policies to fatten their own pockets.

Who knows who else's orders they take?

This has been stated multiple times by Americans and their think tanks.

The phrase that "Pakistanis would even sell their mothers" must originate from somewhere...

There requires an urgent change in leadership to loyal, nationalist and competent folk.

 

[SaadH]

True.
How many theocracies, outside of oil states, are rich?

USA, which is for all practical purposes a Christian state or at least was during its growth and advancement state. In fact it was a racist, ethnocentric and dogmatic throughout this phase.

It is in a decline now arguably since secularism has taken deep root in society and governance.

 

[That Guy]

It's secular/religious nature has nothing to do with its failure.

The problem is with its economy and the ones who control it.

For years I argued against people who called Pakistan a banana republic, yet I'm more and more finding myself on the verge of agreeing with them.

The very foundation of Pakistan is being destroyed by the elites, the corrupt, and the ones who rule. They do not see that they are doing to Pakistan what India has been dreaming about for years.

It is a sick and twisted joke.

I remember telling @SQ8 a while back that I had given up on Pakistan, I stand by that statement until proven otherwise.

 

[villageidiot]

True.
How many theocracies, outside of oil states, are rich?

Okay, so I am actually heading out (got kick bocking practice
Will be back in 2 hours and I will make my case. Please hold off until them.
Thank You

Correlation is not causation.

Also, there haven't been any (notable) muslim majority, secular states before the republic of Turkey, I think.

So, that would mean the there was no rich muslim state before that?

 

[MirageBlue]

Brazil is not a secular country, its catholic

India is not secular, its Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Buddhist

African countries are christian or muslim

The West - US and Europe and far east are secular and this is the 1st world.

Jinnah was a western educated lawyer who liked a smoke and a drink. He was not a mullah lol.

Jinnah also ate pork. Just saying.

 

[One_Nation]

Secularism doesn't make all the difference but when every second word you utter is Allah and you live with a belief that Allah gives you everything then that makes you dumb and poor.

 

[Azadkashmir]

pakistan is poor cos it doesnt print its own currency debt free or atleast move to gold and silver and barter international.

 

[Abdul Rehman Majeed]

Pakistan is not failing.

People should stop falling for or amplifying the Indian propaganda.

 

[313ghazi]

Please no arguments or insults. We just want to hear people's opinions.

@Rusty2 Claims that Pakistan's economy is failing due to it not being a secular nation, and the west's economy is flourishing due to that same secularism.
(Please correct me Rusty if that's not what you claim)

I disagree and I think the problems are more due to the incompetent governance and bad economic policies.

Or maybe he's right and we had the most competent leadership, the most effective economic policies, employment readily available, tons of natural resources like oils, minerals and gas.

Ishaq Dar is/was a total magician, our great national leaders like Nawaz Sharif, Shahbaz Sharif, and Zardari were perfect governors but secularism was missing hence today it is failing.

@PakFactor @That Guy @Al_Muhannad @epebble @ziaulislam @SaadH @Erieye @Mirzali Khan @_NOBODY_ @313ghazi @MastanKhan @SQ8 @Great Janjua @FuturePAF

Take the most secular county in the world and rule it for 70 years with our feudal Lords and thier chowkidar friends and see how successful it is.

True.
How many theocracies, outside of oil states, are rich?

Okay, so I am actually heading out (got kick bocking practice
Will be back in 2 hours and I will make my case. Please hold off until them.
Thank You

Pakistani is not a theocracy.