Discussion: Is Pakistan's economy failing because it is not a secular nation?

[COOKie LOOkie....]

The word 'Secular' seems to have acquired some bad connotations on this board. It does not mean anti-religion. It just means people practice their religion privately while the State runs its business with no regard to any religion. We have a sort of secular society in U.S., not because anyone is prevented from practicing any religion, but we have a strict separation of church and state. We like it that way because it prevents dividing society into fragments based on religion or sect. It was sad to see that fine economists were prevented from helping to improve Pakistan because they belonged to disfavored sects., I think the famous physicist was ostracized for being of the wrong sect too. Obviously, this is not helping anyone. At present, as an observer outside of Pakistan, I find it curious that the government is composed of extremely unintelligent people (the PM, previous PM, finance minister etc.,). I wonder is it because the smarter people belong to disfavored sects?

Exactly! People usually fail to understand the true meaning of secularism. Back in the day when the church was controlling politics and government the horrors they have done in the name of the god and surprisingly they will get away with it unpaved. -
The problem is when you bring religion in politics, you give absolute power the clerics and no power is innocent, no doubt it will be abused.
The word secularism has been so polluted for the common folks in Pakistan by the cleric that whoever mentions it, is considered blasphemy or some sort of religious treachery. otherwise these morons are gonna loose their hold on masses.
I mean the guy that received pakistans first ever noble prize abdus salam, even though his worked is still studied and praised in the world but since he was from ahmadia sect he was working for the devil.

 

[epebble]

Due to nepotism, nepotism is much less likely to happen with people from disfavored sects

Talking of disfavored sects, is the previous finance minister Dr. Miftah Ismail 'handicapped' in any way? It has been gnawing in my head why a smart guy like him was replaced by dumb as a rock Ishaq Dar. It is like someone appointing me as a brain surgeon when I can't even chop cabbage properly.

 

[TheSolution]

Talking of disfavored sects, is the previous finance minister Dr. Miftah Ismail 'handicapped' in any way? It has been gnawing in my head why a smart guy like him was replaced by dumb as a rock Ishaq Dar. It is like someone appointing me as a brain surgeon when I can't even chop cabbage properly.

Nepotism again pretty sure, Dar is a personal favourite of the crooks, they don't choose people based on competency or qualifications. It's based on loyalty and who supports their "side missions" in the government.

Nepotism in Pakistan is very serious issue. 60% of Pakistan's problems would be solved if a strict policy of meritocracy was implemented and nepotism discouraged.

Only IK was dabbling in this, Sharifs are filthy boomers

 

[SoulSpokesman]

While it maybe a good idea to become secular, it is not necessary. Paks economic failures have relatively little to do with lack of secularism or Islam.

Regards

 

[SIPRA]

Everything in Pakistan is failing because it is being ruled by thug Generals and politicians.

 

[Rusty2]

Holy moly, 3 pages already.
Okay here we go.
Outline:
Definition of secularism
Oil states
Why secularism beats Theocracy in the economy
Conclusion
Secularism in it's most basic form just means the government doesn't involve itself in your religious affairs. The state does not mandate who is what and it doesn't get involved in theocratic debates.
Now if you look at a list of the most developed nations vs least developed, all non oil states that are developed are secular while the majority of the least developed states are not. (lots of Christian states from Africa).
Naturally people will point out the oil states in the gulf. The problem with those states is that they have essentially won the lottery and thus don't have to play by normal rules. So designing your society around winning the lottery is not the best idea.
Okay so now to the crux of the argument.
Governments, as we know, have limited time and budgets. They can't spend an infinite amount of time and money on an infinite amount of projects. So they have to pick and choose what they prioritize.
Lets say, for example, the government has 100 dollars. In a secular state that $100 can be spent on people who will help the economy and provide a return. Think economists, data analysist, industrialists, etc. So a secular government can spend that $100 and get much more money in return.
Now lets switch to a theocracy. It has that same $100 but it also has to spend a portion, if not majority, employing clerics, enforces, etc etc to force people to follow its version of the faith. the problem is that these people do nothing for the economy. They are a money pit. You have to pay them out of the $100 but their job makes no products, they provide no meaningful skills etc.

Now, lets switch it up a bit. Lets look at the people. Lets pick 100 people. In a secular nation, those 100 people can go to work, participate in the economy and make contributions that will help them and the nation.
In a theocracy, out of those 100 there will be portion who MUST be paid by the government to be theocrats as there is no free market economy of theocrats. These theocrats do not produce anything, they do not add to trade and on the flip side just take money away.
Of course we should not forget that they also have power over the people and government, thus limiting the people's ability to participate in the global economy.
This is just a short description, please engage in good faith with evidence to back up your argument. It is pointless to simply reply with "you are wrong because I said so"

 

[Indos]

Surah 7 Al-A'raf, Ayat 96-96​

وَلَوۡ اَنَّ اَهۡلَ الۡقُرٰٓى اٰمَنُوۡا وَاتَّقَوۡا لَـفَتَحۡنَا عَلَيۡهِمۡ بَرَكٰتٍ مِّنَ السَّمَآءِ وَالۡاَرۡضِ وَلٰـكِنۡ كَذَّبُوۡا فَاَخَذۡنٰهُمۡ بِمَا كَانُوۡا يَكۡسِبُوۡنَ‏ ﴿7:96﴾

(7:96) Had the people of those towns believed and been God-fearing, We would certainly have opened up to them blessings from the heavens and the earth; but they gave the lie [to their Prophets] and so We seized them for their deeds. so.

God Fearing comes from the word "Taqwa." In Taqwa it also means dont do corruption, just, pick the best person in the right position, do real consultation system during governing etc etc

-----------------------------------

People accuse Islam as the basis of Taliban governance ?

Check this out

Governing system

وَٱلَّذِينَ ٱسْتَجَابُوا۟ لِرَبِّهِمْ وَأَقَامُوا۟ ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ وَأَمْرُهُمْ شُورَىٰ بَيْنَهُمْ وَمِمَّا رَزَقْنَـٰهُمْ يُنفِقُونَ ٣٨

And those who have responded to their Lord and established prayer and whose affair is [determined by] consultation among themselves, and from what We have provided them, they spend,
— Saheeh International

Surah Ash-Shuraa - 38 - Quran.com

who respond to their Lord, establish prayer, conduct their affairs by mutual consultation, and donate from what We have provided for them;

quran.com

 

[epebble]

Holy moly, 3 pages already.
Okay here we go.
Outline:
Definition of secularism
Oil states
Why secularism beats Theocracy in the economy
Conclusion
Secularism in it's most basic form just means the government doesn't involve itself in your religious affairs. The state does not mandate who is what and it doesn't get involved in theocratic debates.
Now if you look at a list of the most developed nations vs least developed, all non oil states that are developed are secular while the majority of the least developed states are not. (lots of Christian states from Africa).
Naturally people will point out the oil states in the gulf. The problem with those states is that they have essentially won the lottery and thus don't have to play by normal rules. So designing your society around winning the lottery is not the best idea.
Okay so now to the crux of the argument.
Governments, as we know, have limited time and budgets. They can't spend an infinite amount of time and money on an infinite amount of projects. So they have to pick and choose what they prioritize.
Lets say, for example, the government has 100 dollars. In a secular state that $100 can be spent on people who will help the economy and provide a return. Think economists, data analysist, industrialists, etc. So a secular government can spend that $100 and get much more money in return.
Now lets switch to a theocracy. It has that same $100 but it also has to spend a portion, if not majority, employing clerics, enforces, etc etc to force people to follow its version of the faith. the problem is that these people do nothing for the economy. They are a money pit. You have to pay them out of the $100 but their job makes no products, they provide no meaningful skills etc.

Now, lets switch it up a bit. Lets look at the people. Lets pick 100 people. In a secular nation, those 100 people can go to work, participate in the economy and make contributions that will help them and the nation.
In a theocracy, out of those 100 there will be portion who MUST be paid by the government to be theocrats as there is no free market economy of theocrats. These theocrats do not produce anything, they do not add to trade and on the flip side just take money away.
Of course we should not forget that they also have power over the people and government, thus limiting the people's ability to participate in the global economy.
This is just a short description, please engage in good faith with evidence to back up your argument. It is pointless to simply reply with "you are wrong because I said so"

While your dollars and cents accounting is perfectly tenable, you missed out the corrosive effect of rendering a particular class of citizens as inferior. This has to happen in a non-secular society as the establishment sect is preferred over other sects. Someone pointed out talented economists being excluded for being of wrong sect. The opportunity cost of that and a million similar decisions are far more destructive than monetary loss. There is a distinct lack of thoughtful leaders in Pakistan and part of it may be their exclusion from mainstream due to sectarian reasons. Something like this happened in Egypt and Lebanon. The Copts and Maronites emigrated due to marginalization and both countries suffer from severe lack of thought leaders.

 

[Indos]

Pakistan people basically support Military and it is well recorded in Pew Research pooling. Only after IK being ousted then you guys start accusing Military.

Stop blaming Islam

 

[Rusty2]

While your dollars and cents accounting is perfectly tenable, you missed out the corrosive effect of rendering a particular class of citizens as inferior. This has to happen in a non-secular society as the establishment sect is preferred over other sects. Someone pointed out talented economists being excluded for being of wrong sect. The opportunity cost of that and a million similar decisions are far more destructive than monetary loss. There is a distinct lack of thoughtful leaders in Pakistan and part of it may be their exclusion from mainstream due to sectarian reasons. Something like this happened in Egypt and Lebanon. The Copts and Maronites emigrated due to marginalization and both countries suffer from severe lack of thought leaders.

100%
But I wanted to keep it simple, I didn't want to get too deep so as to loose the readers. This rabbit hole goes DEEEEEP. There are million problems that start to occur when you go a theocratic route.

Pakistan people basically support Military and it is well recorded in Pew Research pooling. Only after IK being ousted then you guys start accusing Military.

Stop blaming Islam

No one blamed Islam.

Surah 7 Al-A'raf, Ayat 96-96​

وَلَوۡ اَنَّ اَهۡلَ الۡقُرٰٓى اٰمَنُوۡا وَاتَّقَوۡا لَـفَتَحۡنَا عَلَيۡهِمۡ بَرَكٰتٍ مِّنَ السَّمَآءِ وَالۡاَرۡضِ وَلٰـكِنۡ كَذَّبُوۡا فَاَخَذۡنٰهُمۡ بِمَا كَانُوۡا يَكۡسِبُوۡنَ‏ ﴿7:96﴾

(7:96) Had the people of those towns believed and been God-fearing, We would certainly have opened up to them blessings from the heavens and the earth; but they gave the lie [to their Prophets] and so We seized them for their deeds. so.

God Fearing comes from the word "Taqwa." In Taqwa it also means dont do corruption, just, pick the best person in the right position, do real consultation system during governing etc etc

-----------------------------------

People accuse Islam as the basis of Taliban governance ?

Check this out

Governing system

وَٱلَّذِينَ ٱسْتَجَابُوا۟ لِرَبِّهِمْ وَأَقَامُوا۟ ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ وَأَمْرُهُمْ شُورَىٰ بَيْنَهُمْ وَمِمَّا رَزَقْنَـٰهُمْ يُنفِقُونَ ٣٨

And those who have responded to their Lord and established prayer and whose affair is [determined by] consultation among themselves, and from what We have provided them, they spend,
— Saheeh International

Surah Ash-Shuraa - 38 - Quran.com

who respond to their Lord, establish prayer, conduct their affairs by mutual consultation, and donate from what We have provided for them;

quran.com

Since the topic is about the economy, how much does prayer add the a countries GDP?
I am obviously not taking a stab at prayer, but instead pointing out how faith and government should be separate.

 

[TheSolution]

While your dollars and cents accounting is perfectly tenable, you missed out the corrosive effect of rendering a particular class of citizens as inferior. This has to happen in a non-secular society as the establishment sect is preferred over other sects. Someone pointed out talented economists being excluded for being of wrong sect. The opportunity cost of that and a million similar decisions are far more destructive than monetary loss. There is a distinct lack of thoughtful leaders in Pakistan and part of it may be their exclusion from mainstream due to sectarian reasons. Something like this happened in Egypt and Lebanon. The Copts and Maronites emigrated due to marginalization and both countries suffer from severe lack of thought leaders.

You're over playing this sect thing. If you're referring to the Miftah Ismail thing, that was due to nepotism and politics, not sects.

The effects it has is quite literally negligible - the real damaging thing is nepotism and lack of meritocracy.

Looking to fix your economy by turning secular is the most bizarre and odd solution you can think of because you aren't even addressing the core reason why it's failing.

Lack of meritocracy, extreme nepotism - this leads to horrible economic policies, difficulty to do business, not creating a productive population, lower access to education, lower quality of education, high unemployment, etc.

Literally everything can be traced back to incompetence.

Adress this first before looking for bizarre solutions like switching to secularism.

 

[I.R.A]

While it maybe a good idea to become secular, it is not necessary. Paks economic failures have relatively little to do with lack of secularism or Islam.

Regards

Pakistan's economy has nothing to do with secularism or Islam, but decades of incompetence, corruption, putting petty individual interests before interests of the country, little to no transparency, making the worst stupid deals and hiding everything from their own people, the dreams to become billionaires within a fortnight no matter how.

Consider this simple example, one of the richest guys is Pakistan is "Malik Riaz", his specialty? don't think he is some highly educated well versed business person .... he made fortunes simply by just selling land, land fraud and then exploiting the mentality of Pakistanis (from rich to poor, from highly educated to a simpleton) and the situation in the country to the fullest. No contribution whatsoever to expanding industrial base in Pakistan, nothing to bring new tech or innovation or anything to Pakistan, no effort to bring foreign investment to Pakistan.

Compare him with say Rattan Tata from india.

Now expand this comparison and you will understand why ....

Why PIA, Pakistan railways, Pakistan Steel mills, OGDCL and every other government owned entity is in loss? Lack of secularism?

It is simply lack of ethics, honesty, dedication, being upright, being more transparent, being open minded.

 

[Indos]

Since the topic is about the economy, how much does prayer add the a countries GDP?
I am obviously not taking a stab at prayer, but instead pointing out how faith and government should be separate.

Taqwa is not just related to prayer, the prayer will be useless if we also cheating, corrupting, bribing and others.

Taqwa means following God rules.

 

[TheSolution]

Holy moly, 3 pages already.
Okay here we go.
Outline:
Definition of secularism
Oil states
Why secularism beats Theocracy in the economy
Conclusion
Secularism in it's most basic form just means the government doesn't involve itself in your religious affairs. The state does not mandate who is what and it doesn't get involved in theocratic debates.
Now if you look at a list of the most developed nations vs least developed, all non oil states that are developed are secular while the majority of the least developed states are not. (lots of Christian states from Africa).
Naturally people will point out the oil states in the gulf. The problem with those states is that they have essentially won the lottery and thus don't have to play by normal rules. So designing your society around winning the lottery is not the best idea.
Okay so now to the crux of the argument.
Governments, as we know, have limited time and budgets. They can't spend an infinite amount of time and money on an infinite amount of projects. So they have to pick and choose what they prioritize.
Lets say, for example, the government has 100 dollars. In a secular state that $100 can be spent on people who will help the economy and provide a return. Think economists, data analysist, industrialists, etc. So a secular government can spend that $100 and get much more money in return.
Now lets switch to a theocracy. It has that same $100 but it also has to spend a portion, if not majority, employing clerics, enforces, etc etc to force people to follow its version of the faith. the problem is that these people do nothing for the economy. They are a money pit. You have to pay them out of the $100 but their job makes no products, they provide no meaningful skills etc.

Now, lets switch it up a bit. Lets look at the people. Lets pick 100 people. In a secular nation, those 100 people can go to work, participate in the economy and make contributions that will help them and the nation.
In a theocracy, out of those 100 there will be portion who MUST be paid by the government to be theocrats as there is no free market economy of theocrats. These theocrats do not produce anything, they do not add to trade and on the flip side just take money away.
Of course we should not forget that they also have power over the people and government, thus limiting the people's ability to participate in the global economy.
This is just a short description, please engage in good faith with evidence to back up your argument. It is pointless to simply reply with "you are wrong because I said so"

What clerics or religious individuals does Pakistan pay from government funding? Especially with majority of funding?

Also you realise if you switch to secularism, you will still need to address the religious stuff due to the extremism spread through society which will cost funding.

Pakistan is in a situation right now that no matter secularism or theocracy they have to clamp down on extremism which means state regulation and control in some manner

 

[Rusty2]

Taqwa is not just related to prayer, the prayer will be useless if we also cheating, corrupting, bribing and others.

Taqwa means following God rules.

Yes, of course, but the question is still there. How much does "following God's rules" add to the economy?
If we invest $100 on a scientist or an Imam, which one will give us a better return to the economy?