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Discussion: Is Pakistan's economy failing because it is not a secular nation?

Is Pakistan's economy failing because it is not a secular country?

  • Yes

  • No


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Yes, of course, but the question is still there. How much does "following God's rules" add to the economy?
If we invest $100 on a scientist or an Imam, which one will give us a better return to the economy?
The scientist but your argument only holds substance if majority or even just large portions are going towards religion, which I'm pretty sure they are not unless you can post figures stating otherwise
 
What clerics or religious individuals does Pakistan pay from government funding? Especially with majority of funding?

Also you realise if you switch to secularism, you will still need to address the religious stuff due to the extremism spread through society which will cost funding.

Pakistan is in a situation right now that no matter secularism or theocracy they have to clamp down on extremism which means state regulation and control in some manner
I never said Pakistan does, but if Pakistan becomes a theocracy, by definition it would have to.
Yes, religion can be addressed as a police issue. Normal people going about their business are left alone. Madrassas brainwashing kids to bomb mosques go to jail.
The extremism bit is a very interesting and legit rabbit hole, but lets stick to the topic about the economy.

The scientist but your argument only holds substance if majority or even just large portions are going towards religion, which I'm pretty sure they are not unless you can post figures stating otherwise
not really, remember in a theocracy the government is spending part of its $100 to pay for Imams. While a secular state will not. The Imams in a secular state will be funded by private individuals, which is fine as they can give their money to whoever they want.
 
But we are talking in the context of Pakistan? 😂
Sure.
I am saying Pakistan being a theocratic state is not a good Idea.
Is Pakistan a theocratic state right now? It's a mixed bag, we do some dumb things like have blasphemy laws and fire economist for being the wrong kind of Muslim. But we are not full on Iran.

I am saying Pakistan needs to be fully secular.
Are you saying Pakistan needs to be fully theocratic? I don't want to put words in your mouth.
 
Yes, of course, but the question is still there. How much does "following God's rules" add to the economy?
If we invest $100 on a scientist or an Imam, which one will give us a better return to the economy?

Your mind stick to Imam, prayer, and all the ritual thing. Islam is not only about that. Islam even talk about science, economy, mathematics (Al Gebra), etc

Just improve the qualification of Imam here

Imam in Indonesian Istiqlal Mosque is lead by Professor and Islamist force in Indonesia is not lead by religious Imam graduated from Madrasah, but mostly they come from universities and businesses.

Indonesian Islamist leader in the past is BJ Habibie, who made several important theories in aerospace sector, who become Director of Aerotec, JV of Indonesian Aerospace and CASA, that design CN 235.

Islamist power in Indonesia is mostly lead by intellectuals and in the past they are inside the institution called ICMI.

----------------------------------------

The Indonesian Association of Muslim Intellectuals (Indonesian: Ikatan Cendekiawan Muslim Indonesia, ICMI) is a Muslim organization in Indonesia. Founded in 1990 by Indonesian Secretary of Research and Technology B. J. Habibie, the organisation is committed to fight against poverty and improve education in Indonesia.

History​

While most Indonesia Muslim politicians had supported the deposing of the Sukarno regime and the suppression of the Communist Party of Indonesia by Indonesian army chief Suharto between 1965 and 1968, Suharto soon began to suppress Indonesia Muslim political activities. Suharto pursued a secular system of government, which along with the high-level appointment of Catholics and patronage of the ethnic Chinese community, led to some Indonesia Muslim political groups becoming opposed to the Suharto regime.

In the early 1990s, Suharto moved his public identity and government considerably towards Islam. Adopting the name Haji Mohammad Suharto, he undertook a hajj pilgrimage to Mecca, Saudi Arabia in 1991. In the prior year, Suharto had permitted the formation of the Indonesian Association of Indonesia Muslim Intellectuals under the influence of Bacharuddin Jusuf Habibie, a close adviser and then-minister of technology and research. As opposed to traditional Islamic organizations in Indonesia such as the Nahdatul Ulama (NU), ICMI supported Suharto's regime in turn for considerable influence in policy-making and administration.

By 1994, ICMI had grown considerably, boasting as many as 20,000 members, who were largely Indonesia Muslim professionals, scientists, economists, educators and scholars. Habibie (who became Suharto's vice-president in 1998) served as ICMI's president while Indonesia Muslim scholars and political activists such as Imaduddin (who had been imprisoned by the Suharto regime in 1979) helped organize the body. Another prominent member was Amien Rais who would later become a major opponent of the Suharto regime and chief of Muhammadiyah, reputedly the second-largest Islamic organization in Indonesia. While highly-influential during the Suharto era, ICMI lacked a grassroots organisation, public appeal or popular support. Consisting of elite intellectuals, ICMI's influence grew mainly with the patronage of Suharto and his political party, Golkar.
 
Your mind stick to Imam, prayer, and all the ritual thing. Islam is not only about that. Islam even talk about science, economy, mathematics (Al Gebra), etc

Just improve the qualification of Imam here

Imam in Indonesian Istiqlal Mosque is lead by Professor and Islamist force in Indonesia is not lead by religious Imam graduated from Madrasah, but mostly they come from universities and businesses.

Indonesian Islamist leader in the past is BJ Habibie, who made several important theories in aerospace sector, who become Director of Aerotec, JV of Indonesian Aerospace and CASA, that design CN 235.

Islamist power in Indonesia is mostly lead by intellectuals and in the past they are inside the institution called ICMI.

----------------------------------------

The Indonesian Association of Muslim Intellectuals (Indonesian: Ikatan Cendekiawan Muslim Indonesia, ICMI) is a Muslim organization in Indonesia. Founded in 1990 by Indonesian Secretary of Research and Technology B. J. Habibie, the organisation is committed to fight against poverty and improve education in Indonesia.

History​

While most Indonesia Muslim politicians had supported the deposing of the Sukarno regime and the suppression of the Communist Party of Indonesia by Indonesian army chief Suharto between 1965 and 1968, Suharto soon began to suppress Indonesia Muslim political activities. Suharto pursued a secular system of government, which along with the high-level appointment of Catholics and patronage of the ethnic Chinese community, led to some Indonesia Muslim political groups becoming opposed to the Suharto regime.

In the early 1990s, Suharto moved his public identity and government considerably towards Islam. Adopting the name Haji Mohammad Suharto, he undertook a hajj pilgrimage to Mecca, Saudi Arabia in 1991. In the prior year, Suharto had permitted the formation of the Indonesian Association of Indonesia Muslim Intellectuals under the influence of Bacharuddin Jusuf Habibie, a close adviser and then-minister of technology and research. As opposed to traditional Islamic organizations in Indonesia such as the Nahdatul Ulama (NU), ICMI supported Suharto's regime in turn for considerable influence in policy-making and administration.

By 1994, ICMI had grown considerably, boasting as many as 20,000 members, who were largely Indonesia Muslim professionals, scientists, economists, educators and scholars. Habibie (who became Suharto's vice-president in 1998) served as ICMI's president while Indonesia Muslim scholars and political activists such as Imaduddin (who had been imprisoned by the Suharto regime in 1979) helped organize the body. Another prominent member was Amien Rais who would later become a major opponent of the Suharto regime and chief of Muhammadiyah, reputedly the second-largest Islamic organization in Indonesia. While highly-influential during the Suharto era, ICMI lacked a grassroots organisation, public appeal or popular support. Consisting of elite intellectuals, ICMI's influence grew mainly with the patronage of Suharto and his political party, Golkar.
Bro, try to understand that this topic is about the economy.
 
Sure.
I am saying Pakistan being a theocratic state is not a good Idea.
Is Pakistan a theocratic state right now? It's a mixed bag, we do some dumb things like have blasphemy laws and fire economist for being the wrong kind of Muslim. But we are not full on Iran.

I am saying Pakistan needs to be fully secular.
Are you saying Pakistan needs to be fully theocratic? I don't want to put words in your mouth.
No, I am an advocate for keeping Pakistan at it is right now. Which I class as "semi-secular Muslim state" you can't call it Islamic as that would entail Sharia Law, etc.

But I want religious institutions to be regulated by the state and some rules imposed on them - like quality of preachers and requirements of formal education as well as formal Islamic course.

The reason why extremism is so rife is anyone can erect a mosque structure, have no qualifications to teach apart from a beard, and suddenly everyone will take his word for it. They prey on young kids and radicalise them. And in some of these masjids ex Afghan war veterans were teaching so you can imagine why that's a bad idea.
 
Compare him with say Rattan Tata from india.
Tata is a good example. In a secular society, they are not disfavored for being Zoroastrians. They run steel mills, auto plants, chemical industries, software business, national airline etc., Whereas in a non-secular society, they would be disfavored and driven out of economy and society.
 
Tata is a good example. In a secular society, they are not disfavored for being Zoroastrians. They run steel mills, auto plants, chemical industries, software business, national airline etc., Whereas in a non-secular society, they would be disfavored and driven out of economy and society.
In an uneducated society*

An educated non-secular society is not like this. Middle Eastern states have tons of foreigners doing business with comfort who are not Muslim.

Your mind stick to Imam, prayer, and all the ritual thing. Islam is not only about that. Islam even talk about science, economy, mathematics (Al Gebra), etc

Just improve the qualification of Imam here

Imam in Indonesian Istiqlal Mosque is lead by Professor and Islamist force in Indonesia is not lead by religious Imam graduated from Madrasah, but mostly they come from universities and businesses.

Indonesian Islamist leader in the past is BJ Habibie, who made several important theories in aerospace sector, who become Director of Aerotec, JV of Indonesian Aerospace and CASA, that design CN 235.

Islamist power in Indonesia is mostly lead by intellectuals and in the past they are inside the institution called ICMI.

----------------------------------------

The Indonesian Association of Muslim Intellectuals (Indonesian: Ikatan Cendekiawan Muslim Indonesia, ICMI) is a Muslim organization in Indonesia. Founded in 1990 by Indonesian Secretary of Research and Technology B. J. Habibie, the organisation is committed to fight against poverty and improve education in Indonesia.

History​

While most Indonesia Muslim politicians had supported the deposing of the Sukarno regime and the suppression of the Communist Party of Indonesia by Indonesian army chief Suharto between 1965 and 1968, Suharto soon began to suppress Indonesia Muslim political activities. Suharto pursued a secular system of government, which along with the high-level appointment of Catholics and patronage of the ethnic Chinese community, led to some Indonesia Muslim political groups becoming opposed to the Suharto regime.

In the early 1990s, Suharto moved his public identity and government considerably towards Islam. Adopting the name Haji Mohammad Suharto, he undertook a hajj pilgrimage to Mecca, Saudi Arabia in 1991. In the prior year, Suharto had permitted the formation of the Indonesian Association of Indonesia Muslim Intellectuals under the influence of Bacharuddin Jusuf Habibie, a close adviser and then-minister of technology and research. As opposed to traditional Islamic organizations in Indonesia such as the Nahdatul Ulama (NU), ICMI supported Suharto's regime in turn for considerable influence in policy-making and administration.

By 1994, ICMI had grown considerably, boasting as many as 20,000 members, who were largely Indonesia Muslim professionals, scientists, economists, educators and scholars. Habibie (who became Suharto's vice-president in 1998) served as ICMI's president while Indonesia Muslim scholars and political activists such as Imaduddin (who had been imprisoned by the Suharto regime in 1979) helped organize the body. Another prominent member was Amien Rais who would later become a major opponent of the Suharto regime and chief of Muhammadiyah, reputedly the second-largest Islamic organization in Indonesia. While highly-influential during the Suharto era, ICMI lacked a grassroots organisation, public appeal or popular support. Consisting of elite intellectuals, ICMI's influence grew mainly with the patronage of Suharto and his political party, Golkar.
I have suggested the same several times.

It is a lack of quality education in both in the Islamic sense and STEM sense.

Pakistan even has tons of ghost schools where people get paid as workers and no even attends.

The religious madrassas are not even monitored, you have random tribal bearded men teaching young kids who otherwise failed school or didn't get a chance to go, sometimes you even have Afghan Soviet war veterans teaching them.... the original mujahideen.
 
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But I want religious institutions to be regulated by the state and some rules imposed on them - like quality of preachers and requirements of formal education also.
So this is the part where I challenge you.
This sentence sounds easy.... but the devil is really in the details.
1. Sects. What sect is the government going to be? Sunni or Shia? Sunni since it's the majority? Okay then what about all the Shia? Do we need two parallel governments? One for Sunnis and one for Shias?
What about the sub-sects? Will they get their own government agencies? How much money will be spend on this completely futile and productive endeavor? that $100? $90 of it just went to this. How about non-Muslims? Will each religion get it's own government agencies?
2. Lets say we just force Sunni Islam on everyone (bad bad bad idea), but lets go with it. Which Madhab? Which version of Sunni Islam? In some madhabs eating shrimp is haram, in other madhabs its halal. Do we now spend government money on figuring out if shrimp is halal or haram? Again that $100... poof. Okay so the government says "okay Shrimp is halal" well... we all know what religious Muslims are not the type to be chill about things they disagree with. Now you have a mullah mob of Muslim who think the government is kafir since it didn't give the ruling that they wanted...... meanwhile the US has just invented another cure for a disease.
3. What powers will these instructions have? Can they throw you in jail for not praying 5 times a day? Imagine going to work, being part of the economy, providing a living for your family and all of a sudden the religious police bust in and put you in jail for not praying 5 times a day. At this point the government just paid to destroy your life and its economy.
4. etc etc etc
I hope I conveyed how bad of an idea it is to have these "religious institutions" and I hope you are smart enough to pick up what I am saying instead of responding with "lol, who cares about shrimp," as that is clearly not the point I am making.
 
Tatas are not foreigners. They have been in India for centuries. Freedom movement in India was started by a Zoroastrian man.
Well the point still stands - people of different religions/origins. Middle Eastern countries like UAE are an example where Western atheists even comfortably carry out business activity.

Pakistan is just uneducated and affected by extremism due to politics in the region

So this is the part where I challenge you.
This sentence sounds easy.... but the devil is really in the details.
1. Sects. What sect is the government going to be? Sunni or Shia? Sunni since it's the majority? Okay then what about all the Shia? Do we need two parallel governments? One for Sunnis and one for Shias?
What about the sub-sects? Will they get their own government agencies? How much money will be spend on this completely futile and productive endeavor? that $100? $90 of it just went to this. How about non-Muslims? Will each religion get it's own government agencies?
2. Lets say we just force Sunni Islam on everyone (bad bad bad idea), but lets go with it. Which Madhab? Which version of Sunni Islam? In some madhabs eating shrimp is haram, in other madhabs its halal. Do we now spend government money on figuring out if shrimp is halal or haram? Again that $100... poof. Okay so the government says "okay Shrimp is halal" well... we all know what religious Muslims are not the type to be chill about things they disagree with. Now you have a mullah mob of Muslim who think the government is kafir since it didn't give the ruling that they wanted...... meanwhile the US has just invented another cure for a disease.
3. What powers will these instructions have? Can they throw you in jail for not praying 5 times a day? Imagine going to work, being part of the economy, providing a living for your family and all of a sudden the religious police bust in and put you in jail for not praying 5 times a day. At this point the government just paid to destroy your life and its economy.
4. etc etc etc
I hope I conveyed how bad of an idea it is to have these "religious institutions" and I hope you are smart enough to pick up what I am saying instead of responding with "lol, who cares about shrimp," as that is clearly not the point I am making.
The majority sect. Also they won't have any legal power at all? When I say institution I mean an education institution to replace uncontrolled madrassas.

Also issues like the shrimp can be decided by formal debates among the scholars in Pakistan, till they reach a consensus and it becomes the norm everyone accepts.
 
The majority sect. Also they won't have any legal power at all? When I say institution I mean an education institution to replace uncontrolled madrassas.

Also issues like the shrimp can be decided by formal debates among the scholars in Pakistan, till they reach a consensus and it becomes the norm everyone accepts.
All of this can be done by non government involvement. Why do we need government to get involved in theocratic learning and debates?
The only thing the government needs to do is make sure no laws are broken, like promoting hate or terrorism and leave these people be.
 
All of this can be done by non government involvement. Why do we need government to get involved in theocratic learning and debates?
The only thing the government needs to do is make sure no laws are broken, like promoting hate or terrorism and leave these people be.
Rules and regulations can only be passed by the government.

Also currently society is filled with extremism so the initial stand will have to be taken by the government - after the deradicalisation is done and people are educated more efficiently there won't be a need for the government's involvement.

They'll just ensure rules are being followed and the people continue as is
 

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