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Discuss PAK-IND air wars

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Hmmm..

source: UK based, Air enthusiast Magazine MAY 1972

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after reading the document carefully i saw some "white spots" everywhere...generally after a conclusion.....which may be describing the source of the magazine....because the source of the scans is the album by some Houston who is a Pakistani national...so why he made such white spots is under doubt

so i want the site please...coz i want the source of this magzine.....
 
Firstly the accusations regarding Mirages and F-104s has been duly refuted and approved as false rumors, here is a reference to the Starfighter debacle which again goes to prove that if nothing else the claims made by India is conflicting.
War between Pakistan and India broke out again on December 7, 1971. By this time the Indian MiG force was formidable, with eight squadrons operationally ready. During the 1971 war with India, No 9 Squadron of the Royal Jordanian Air Force with about 10 F-104As was transferred to Pakistan to help out. It is not certain if the Jordanian F-104As were actually used in combat and if they were, whether they were flown by Pakistani or Jordanian pilots.

F-104A/B in Combat
 
Firstly the accusations regarding Mirages and F-104s has been duly refuted and approved as false rumors, here is a reference to the Starfighter debacle which again goes to prove that if nothing else the claims made by India is conflicting.


F-104A/B in Combat

yes it says its not certain but when it says its sure that or it claims that they were not used............
 

some part of the growler's link....he criticises india....now he criticises flicker....
now what ???????the writers wrong or flicker's wrong

"Many of us have read with great resentment and scepticism claims of writers like former PAF chief Air Marshall Asghar Khan (India-Pakistan War: The First Round) and British writer John Fricker who give Pakistan a TKO victory in the 1965 air war. Fricker, in particular, gave these claims international currency with his controversial article, ‘30 Seconds over Sargodha’, which described ‘‘how’’ a PAF pilot shot down four Indian Hunters in 30 seconds over the Sargodha airbase. These claims are highly inflated."
 
This time i am quoting a neutral author(KYLE, R.G., Major, Royal Canadian Artillery) findings about event in 1971...

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The relative strengths of the armed forces of the two countries are shown in Table 1. It must be noted that India maintained considerable army forces guarding the Himalayan border with China which reduced the forces available for combat with Pakistan.
Pakistan's strategy tried to involve the United Nations to prevent India from intervening militarily. But when it became apparent that this strategy could not prevent war, Pakistan attacked from the West. Yahya probably considered East Pakistan indefensible in the long run, but he hoped to gain sufficient Indian territory in the West which could be traded for East Pakistan territory in the negotiations following the cease-fire. The land battle in the West was thus crucial for Pakistan.

Indian strategy was to act quickly in the East to decisively defeat Pakistani forces there while defending Indian territory in the West. This strategy reduced the danger of China intervening as it clearly did not threaten the existence of West Pakistan. 5/ A quick decision in the East would ensure an independent nation in East Bengal before international action could be mobilized to separate the Indian and Pakistani armies there and preclude the decision India sought.
[DR] The above paragraphs are important because it tells us few things which are well known or argued

- India was seriously considering China's intervention and thus had to keep sufficient reserves in case Dragon join the action
- The above consideration no doubt eroded some numerical superiority over Pakistani counterparts
- Indian objective was to quickly take care of East Pakistan and keep defensive position in West Pakistan
- Pakistani objective was to take as much Indian land as possible in the western sector and use it as a bargaining chip for debacle in East Pakistan...

Now with all in mind one would question that under such circumstances the only side who can have a decisive Air Superiority can achieve its goal in such a short span of time...This makes me believe IAF definitely did well in 1971....


Not only were too few airfields struck for too short a time, but only 30 percent of the available aircraft were used. The aircraft may have had a low serviceability or the PAF may have attempted to save aircraft since they could not be easily replaced. In any case, from this raid onwards, the
IAF dominated the air-war.
[DR]If you see even this neutral author believes that IAF did enjoy dominance...


On December 4, the IAF flew over 500 sorties on tactical and strategic targets in Pakistan. In 14 days of war, the Western Air Command of IAF alone flew over 4,000 sorties. 7/ The IAF claimed 94 aircraft, while the PAF claimed 81. This air campaign demonstrated again the value of mass and boldness: the IAF influenced the war significantly with relatively small losses while the PAF flew far fewer sorties with greater losses and less effect.
[DR]It is common sense that side who is dominating Air will have more sorties...I know the counter can be IAF had more Aircrafts and thus more sorties but can someone please tell me why would i have more sorties when i am clearly loosing Air battle??? Also if PAF is not able to match my sorties then how come they ruled the sky?? The way i understand by the term Air-Dominance is that there was nothing that IAF could have possibly thrown at PAF which went unhindered...



Indian progress was slow, but by the time of the cease-fire 11 days later they had advanced to Naya Chor and had captured 4,700 square kilometers of Pakistani land. 15/ Its quite probable that the Indian advance in the Rann of Kutch was deliberately slow in order not to threaten seriously West Pakistan and thus arouse Chinese military intervention.

[DR] This shows that IA was able to capture significant amount of Pakistani terrotory even though PAF claim to have ruled the sky. May i ask how come both are possible??? Are the two contradictory???

At the time of cease-fire the Pakistanis had not achieved any of their objectives. They had no large tracts of Indian territory to use as bargaining chips for East Pakistan. India had been able to deploy similar military strength to a battle which, for them, was defensive. Indian
air superiority allowed them flexibility while negating any Pakistani local ground concentration.

[DR] Same question as above...Indian's managed to achieve all their objectives while Pakistan couldn't achieve any...How come with decisive Air Superiority Pakistan could not achieve any of her objective...and how come even with no Air-Support(since PAF ruled the sky) IA was able to make advances in western sector???



Pakistan's surface fleet had neither air cover nor weapons to defend against India's missile boats. Therefore, it stayed in Karachi harbour while submarines were given the task of destroying India's aircraft carrier and cruiser. They were unsuccessful: on December 4, Dafne-class
Pakistani submarine was sunk by a carrier escort in the Bay of Bengal while a second submarine was sunk off Visakhapatna harbour. The only Indian loss was the frigate Kukri sunk by a sumbarine in the Arabian Sea on December 9.

[DR] Again gives an inclination that PAF did not enjoy Air-Superiority over IAF....


Firstly, the Pakistani forces needed air superiority and they failed to achieve it. The PAF tried a surprise pre-emptive attack on the Indian Air Force (IAF), but through poor intelligence and planning failed to strike Indian airfields in sufficient numbers or depth. IAF operations were never seriously challenged. In the following days of the war, the PAF could not or would not provide sufficient sorties to gain even local air superiority to support the ground forces even though aircraft were available. It is probable that the PAF command thought it necessary to avoidloss of aircraft so they would be available to counter an Indian offensive into West Pakistan should it arise. It appears that the Pakistani high command were not aware of Yahya's objectives of gaining Indian territory as a defense for the integrity of Pakistan as a whole.
[DR] Again author is iterating that PAF was not even able to achieve local air superiority leave aside Air Dominance...and this was one of the major factor for Pakistan failure to achieve any of their objective....


The India-Pakistan War Of 1971: A Modern War
 
The fact is that the Jordanian F-104s arrived after the hostilities, and albeit the F-5s were transfered from an unspecified Middle Eastern country, some over exited media moguls reported them as Mirages.
The PAF order for 17 Mirage-3EPs, 3 RPs and 3 DPs was a no secret back in the late 60s and if the French indeed disclosed a different figure, why haven't the Indian historians perused such a spectacular on the PAF's front line fighter. After the French aircraft's excellent performance during this war, the PAF continued ordering and receiving the Classic delta wing machine until the late 90s, and it's the first PAF fighter to be given the air to air refueling capability. Now compare that with the SU-7 in the IAF, which the IAF couldn't dispose off as quick as they wanted.
Living in our part of the world, one often witnesses a case of exaggeration. Here is a image then released by Patrick Seale of The Observer London. I bet not many people on both sides of the border hear of such incidents.
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Firstly the accusations regarding Mirages and F-104s has been duly refuted and approved as false rumors, here is a reference to the Starfighter debacle which again goes to prove that if nothing else the claims made by India is conflicting.


F-104A/B in Combat


As you yourself said that it is not certain so Indian claims cannot be simply debuked because there is a possibility that they were used and their performance against Mig-21 was not good as well...


By the way there is another link that say's the opposite

The F-104s served with No. 9 Squadron at Prince Hassan Air Base and with No 25 Squadron at Mwaffaq Salti. No 9 Squadron was transferred to Pakistan to help out in the 1971 war with India, and is believed to have suffered several combat losses, although the number of aircraft lost is uncertain.

[3.0] F-104 In Foreign Service (2)
 
The fact is that the Jordanian F-104s arrived after the hostilities, and albeit the F-5s were transfered from an unspecified Middle Eastern country, some over exited media moguls reported them as Mirages.
The PAF order for 17 Mirage-3EPs, 3 RPs and 3 DPs was a no secret back in the late 60s and if the French indeed disclosed a different figure, why haven't the Indian historians perused such a spectacular on the PAF's front line fighter. After the French aircraft's excellent performance during this war, the PAF continued ordering and receiving the Classic delta wing machine until the late 90s, and it's the first PAF fighter to be given the air to air refueling capability. Now compare that with the SU-7 in the IAF, which the IAF couldn't dispose off as quick as they wanted.
Living in our part of the world, one often witnesses a case of exaggeration. Here is a image then released by Patrick Seale of The Observer London. I bet not many people on both sides of the border hear of such incidents.
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i m impressed with your way of pushing the false truth as the real facts.....tell me what do you say of pakistan,s claim of IAF having mig-19 and mig -23 in 1971....what do u want...we accept it also
 
some part of the growler's link....he criticises india....now he criticises flicker....
now what ???????the writers wrong or flicker's wrong

"Many of us have read with great resentment and scepticism claims of writers like former PAF chief Air Marshall Asghar Khan (India-Pakistan War: The First Round) and British writer John Fricker who give Pakistan a TKO victory in the 1965 air war. Fricker, in particular, gave these claims international currency with his controversial article, ‘30 Seconds over Sargodha’, which described ‘‘how’’ a PAF pilot shot down four Indian Hunters in 30 seconds over the Sargodha airbase. These claims are highly inflated."
For a moment, let's assume that the PAF pilot didn't take 30 seconds and achieved his feat in 30 minutes, what counts is that he shot down five Hunters in a single sortie which is a far more important than the stop watch and for it's part, the PAF has provided the names, ranks and serial numbers of the victims, unless the GOI is refuting to accept them.

Three were Sqn Ldrs.--- O.N. Kacher, A.B. Deveyya, and S.B. Bhagwat, among whom only the first mentioned survived. Also killed in the engagement were Flt Lt B. Guha and Flg Off J.S. Brar.
 
How about discuss Pak - India peace process for once are we gona keep talking about dreamy wars..
 
As you yourself said that it is not certain so Indian claims cannot be simply debuked because there is a possibility that they were used and their performance against Mig-21 was not good as well...


By the way there is another link that say's the opposite



[3.0] F-104 In Foreign Service (2)


Since you want to live with the so called "possibility" to not to debunk Indian claim that the link by wind jammer is uncertain according to you(Infact it is not). Your link is also uncertain and based on your hypothesis we can easily refute it.


The F-104s served with No. 9 Squadron at Prince Hassan Air Base and with No 25 Squadron at Mwaffaq Salti. No 9 Squadron was transferred to Pakistan to help out in the 1971 war with India, and is believed to have suffered several combat losses, although the number of aircraft lost is uncertain.


Several combat losses but how many??? It is uncertain.
 
The fact is that the Jordanian F-104s arrived after the hostilities, and albeit the F-5s were transfered from an unspecified Middle Eastern country, some over exited media moguls reported them as Mirages.
This is factually wrong...The link you posted tells us there is uncertainty over the claim and the one i posted clearly says that PAF did recieve f-104's during 71 war....So either provide a credible source claiming otherwise or else we should stick to the neutral source.....


The PAF order for 17 Mirage-3EPs, 3 RPs and 3 DPs was a no secret back in the late 60s and if the French indeed disclosed a different figure, why haven't the Indian historians perused such a spectacular on the PAF's front line fighter. After the French aircraft's excellent performance during this war, the PAF continued ordering and receiving the Classic delta wing machine until the late 90s, and it's the first PAF fighter to be given the air to air refueling capability. Now compare that with the SU-7 in the IAF, which the IAF couldn't dispose off as quick as they wanted.
Can i use the same logic for Mig-21???? Our IAF still have them in plenty and we even went ahead and upgraded to the level of Bison..Does that mean Mig-21 kicked PAF A$$??? No it doesn't prove anything....Getting a kill on Mirage or Mig does not mean the fighter is not potent...There are hell lot of other factors that come into picture....


Living in our part of the world, one often witnesses a case of exaggeration.
Indeed it is ...That's why we need to question each and every claim on logic...I am trying to do so...Are you???
 
For a moment, let's assume that the PAF pilot didn't take 30 seconds and achieved his feat in 30 minutes, what counts is that he shot down five Hunters in a single sortie which is a far more important than the stop watch and for it's part, the PAF has provided the names, ranks and serial numbers of the victims, unless the GOI is refuting to accept them.

Three were Sqn Ldrs.--- O.N. Kacher, A.B. Deveyya, and S.B. Bhagwat, among whom only the first mentioned survived. Also killed in the engagement were Flt Lt B. Guha and Flg Off J.S. Brar.

And to further strengthen our claim. See the pics of these IAF killed pilots here.

1 Sqn Ldr Ajamada Boppaya Devayya
2 Sqn Ldr S C Bhagwat
3 Fg Offr J S Brar
4 Flt Lt Babul Guha
and check the date it is 7 sept and the PAF aircraft is F-86 Sabre

One survived so we can easily proof our claim that we destroyed 5 IAF hunters in just a glimpse.

4 dead pics are there and one survive.


M M Alam on Hunt

:pakistan:
 
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