Discuss PAK-IND air wars

[Windjammer]

 

[Windjammer]

 

[Myth_buster_1]

good work with the articles windjammer!

 

[Areesh]

Four F-86F returning from a interdiction mission. September 65.

 

[Areesh]

 

[Windjammer]

---------- Post added at 04:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:25 PM ----------

 

[Areesh]

Ah both are looking too cool.

 

[Windjammer]

PAF Pilots being briefed before a mission.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

]

F-86 Gun camera from this raid.

 

[deckingraj]

All right guys i am back....

@Growler, @Windjammer, @Areesh

Thank you all for the good work that you have done in providing so many pictures and news paper cuttings of various wars...Even though they are describing only one side of the story yet one get goose bumps when you imagine those people were actually fighting a war and not like us on internet..

However i have one request to you all ...even though your work and post are valuable but unfortunately the directions is getting vague...What are we going to conclude with this??? How about if you match your post(cuttings, pictures) as per the topic that we are discussing...What i mean is bombarding the thread with your proofs will serve little purpose then to carefully post them refuting claims made by Indians...

Don't you think so?? Also if you can share your thoughts along with your post and help in directing this thread for a closure would be highly appreciated....I am going to post a few messages related to the topics that i was debating with you two days ago(before going out of town)...I request you to stick to it and post your counter arguments..

P.S : As you guys very well know that i have 0% Military Background so there is every chance that i can be wrong..I have researched a lot and try to put sources as neutral as possible...Feedback/Corrections without personal insults are highly appreciated...

Regards...
DeckingRaj

P.S : Special thanks to you @Honor for helping me out here...

 

[deckingraj]

You are just being STUBBORN now! Unless you can prove PAF F-104 were supplied with enough spare parts from non US supplier i will be happy to accept your claim. You are so hell bent to delude your self and believe PAF never returned back Jordanian F-104. You have yet to show me links which CLEARLY states PAF did not return F-104 to Jordan.

Actually what i am hell bent on is that Jordian F-104 did participate in the combat and IAF did kill a couple...If any post of mine gives you such an inclination as claimed by you then I apologize(read i stand corrected)...But if you read carefully even the post that you have replied to I am only claiming that one of the reason that F-104 were retired because Mig-21 outperformed them... Fair???

Now let me tell you why i am stuck on this...

- You in earlier post said that PAF retired them because there were only 6 left...I corrected you saying that after 67 they had only 8...so if they could operate 8 without spares what was wrong with 6 after/during war when Kissinger supported you whole heartedly.....

- May be you missed it but your buddy windjammer himself said that F-104 were offered to you by US..but PAk declined...

To Conlude : I am claiming that Jordan F-104's did see combat(in the later part) and two of them were killed...If you agree to this claim then we are good...if not that watch my next post where i will prove this using the same source that you used...

You are just deluding yourself and doing a very sloppy work to actually read the links that i have provided. and oh.. The link was in that quote you have to click on the bolt part which i highlighted. but anyways here is the link...
LINK

I dont know why am i now bothering my self with you. I have said this like a 100th time that go to SIPRI and do a bit more research and you will find out that India after 65 war was supplied with AA-2 next variant which was equivalent to AIm-9G where as PAF was operating Aim-9B which self life was about to end and had a very poor performance. The next variant of AA-2 for IAF was a improved version of previously supplied were also produced in large numbers...

may be you like me that's why bothering to reply ..See your problem is you loose your cool...Now please tell me what is the point of opening a thread when you don't want to show the courtesy of correcting/countering questions of others without harsh tone??? Have i used anything like that against you even though our claims are exact opposite???I have been to SIPRI site and have compared the two missiles...you are right about numbers because IAF should have atleast 1400-1500 of those missile from 1963-1971 vs 500 AIM 9B ...However as per various sources RS 13S was a copy of Sidewinder AIM 9A whereas Pakistan was operation AIM 9B...The first copy of AIM9A was introduced by USSR in 1961....May be in the later half IAF would have got equivalent to AIM-9G as you are saying but please provide a source for this because i could not find any..Fair???....Also why are you negating the fact that IAF discarded this version(whatever they were using) right after the war...Doesn't this proove that missile performance was not worth???

What the fudge does it prove? That PAF was supplied with the latest weapons?

It was you who claimed that Pak did not have that good relations with US...Since now you are in agreement that from 1950-1965(before Arms Embargo) US was giving you state of art weapons in form of AID as well we can now move on...

What i am trying to tell you is that Pak being close to US and India-Russia bonhomie just started after 1962 debacle it is quite obvious that Pak will have comparatively better quality of Arms then Indian counterparts...It can also be easily verified if you go to same SIPRI site which clearly shows that first arms export from USSR to India happen in 1961 wheras US was supplying weapons to Pak as back as 1956...This disparity(in quality) negated a bit due to Arms Embargo after 65...India was still getting her weapons from USSR wheras Pak had to depend on China, France, UK...

Do you agree?? If not then respond to my next post on Disparity between India and Pak....

"Diplomacy" is not the subject here. IAF had well over 600 Combat aircraft on Pakistani front.
IAF ORBAT

I know diplomacy is not the subject here...however would we be doing a fair job if we do not look at the ground realities of that time??? I always said 280+ vs 650+ is a disparity...but when you consider other factors this is not as huge as it is made to be....Again more details are in my post on Disparity...Please share your thoughts there...

I did but you are not just picking where to find the link from the quote itself. Usually the links are in bold or any darker letters. but then i will post the link 100th time before you can pick it up.

http://s188567700.online.de/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=160&Itemid=47

Thanks for posting the link 100th time..I have used the same link in my next posts so i am sure you are not going to debunk them...

Bull****t. Disparity was not as big? PAF operated only 240 combat aircrafts vs 650+ of IAF was not a big difference? 150+ 2nd - 3rd Generation Mig-21 equipped with new variant of AA-2 (equivalent to Aim-9G) vs 100 vintage 1st generation F-86, F-104, and F-6? You must be deluding yourself.

I am not deluding myself...i have many times said disparity was there...I am only saying that it was not as big as made out to be...for example...You very well mentioned 2 generation planes(Mig-21) fitted with better missiles(still to be proved) but failed to mention all other vintage aircrafts had no missiles at all...whereas you so called vintage aircrafts F-86, F-104, F-6 had....In fact it was our Migs which kept you on defensive posture so i am not challenging that aspect...All i am saying is if 1/3 of IAF aircrafts were better equipped then 2/3 of our Aircrafts were at a big disadvantage viz-a-viz PAF counterparts...Do you agree to this or not???

 

[deckingraj]

one of the topic of debate was about Jordan-F104...were they used in combat?? If they were then did IAF killed any of them??

Here are few neutral links that suggests that indeed Jordan F-104 were used in combat and were lost in IAF fire

The Pakistan Air Force received ten F-104A and two F-104B aircraft via MAP from the USAF in 1961 which were followed by two supplementing aircraft due to one F-104A loss. Pakistan could use these aircraft very well due to the treath from "enemy" India which received MACH-2 capable MIG-21 aircraft from Russia. In September 1964 and December 1971 both India and Pakistan encountered a war-conflict in which the F-104 played an important role. Due to the availability of the 104s within the Pakistan Air Force they arranged a real protection for MIG-21s being used to intercept Pakistan striking aircraft. Although quite successful the Pakistans lost 2 aircraft in the 1965 war and 4 aircraft in the 1971 war. For political reasons the USA was not willing to supply any more F-104s and after their retirement in 1972 the Pakistans received Mirage fighter aircraft from France as replacement. All aircraft served with nr 9 Squadron at Sargodha Air Base.

F-104 Starfighter users

The above link clearly suggest that Pakistan lost 4 aircraft in 71 war...Now as per PAF Official position they had 8 F-104 prior to 71 war. They lost 2 and 6 of them are in museum...Now can anyone explain why they don't think the other two losses were Jordian's F-104??

I know you guys are not convinced...Now let me share more information...Not sure about others but atleast my friend Growler can vouch for impartiality of this site...Just look at the confirmed kills by IAF(i will highlight for you)

12Dec71 28 Sqn MiG-21FL C750 B.B.Soni 23mm F-104A 9Sqn/PAF (pilot Middlecoat)
17Dec71 29 Sqn MiG-21FL I.S.Bindra R-3S F-104A 9Sqn/PAF (pilot?)
17Dec71 29 Sqn MiG-21FL A.K.Datta R-3S F-104A 787 9Sqn/PAF (pilot Changezi)
17Dec71 29 Sqn MiG-21FL N.Kukreja R-3S F-104A 9Sqn/PAF (pilot?)

This clearly suggest that there were confirmed 4 kills of F-104 by IAF...Now can my Pakistani friends suggests that if these were not Jordan's F-104 then whose F-104 were these???

Anyways there is more in this link...

Reports from Indian MiG-21-pilots that engaged PAF Starfighters in air combats on 17 December 1971 indicate that the Starfighters wore "desert camouflage". It is now well-known that a number of Starfighters from the No.9 Squadron Royal Jordanian Air Force were sent to Pakistan during this war: some of these aircraft were camouflaged, and it is now believed that the Indians on 17 December engaged these "ex-Jordanian" F-104As, shooting down two of them and one of original PAF Starfighters as well.

http://s188567700.online.de/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=162&Itemid=47


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Now can i expect my Pakistani friends to accept with open mind that indeed there were more F-104's killed by IAF then accepted by PAF??? Also Jordian F-104 did see combat(i agree at later end of conflict) but 2 of them were shot down by IAF....

My next post would be on some of false claims by both sides...

 

[deckingraj]

In war it is often said Victory has many father's but defeat is an orphan...Call it wrongfully glorifying, Pilots error, earning cheap kills but truth is both IAF and PAF claimed some kills which were wrong...


Here are few of those...

False claims by PAF

1- While returning, the Indian formation was intercepted by the F-86Fs from No.26 Squadron, flown by Wg.Cdr. S.A. Changezi and Flt.Lt. Amjad Andarabi. The Pakistanis claimed two Hunters as shot down, but actually only scored a number of 12,7mm hits on both aircraft, causing no sufficient damage to shot them down (technicians later counted 22 bullet holes in Parker’s Hunter “A485&#8221.


2- Four Su-7s attacked Mianwali around 06:30hrs. They were detected too late for the PAF fighters to prevent them from reaching their target, but once over the target the Sukhois were jumped by F-6s of the No.25 Squadron and Flt.Lt. Irfan claimed one as shot down by an AIM-9B: actually, all the Indian aircraft came away undamaged at low level in the morning mist.

3- Su-7s of No.32 Squadron and from No.26 Squadron attacked Sargodha, one after the other, around 10:30hrs. The formation from later unit arrived over its target right at the time as two F-104s took off. Pakistani Squadron Leader Bhatti claimed one Su-7 as shot down, using AIM-9B. In fact, his missile damaged the Sukhoi flown by Wg.Cdr. Mangat, but the Indian pilot landed safely.

4- The PAF Sabres mounted an interception, attempting to catch the Indian fighters that were thundering at such a low level, that their jetstream was rising huge dust clouds and eyewitnesses recalled that bullets fired by both sides hit the ground near local houses. Eventually, Sqn.Ldr. Sajid, flying an F-86F of the No.19 Squadron, claimed one Hunter as shot down by AIM-9B, but all Indian fighter-bombers returned safely.

5- The results of their strike remain unknown, but the Starfighters subsequently clashed with IAF Gnats, and Imtiaz is known to have claimed a kill, using an AIM-9B. The IAF, however, suffered no losses.

6- On the flight back to Amritsar, the formation was intercepted by two PAF F-86s: Sqn.Ldr. Wamiq fired two AIM-9Bs, both of which missed, but the Pakistani still claimed one of Sukhois as shot down.

7- Seconds afterwards, Javed attacked the other Hunter and claimed it as shot down by 30mm cannons, but all the other IAF fighters disengaged safely.



False claims by IAF

1- Although short on fuel, Parker and his No.2, Flt.Lt. C.S. Dhilon, were finally forced to turn back and engage: two Sabres went after Parker, and one after Dhilon. Dhilon outmanoeuvred his opponent and reached Pathankot safely. Parker meanwhile forced one F-86 to overshoot and claimed it as shot; in fact, both Sabres returned safely to their base.

2-Some 15 minutes later, around 10:45hr, eight Su-7s from No.32 Squadron, led by Sqn.Ldr. Bhatia, attacked Shorkot/Rafiqui AB, using unguided rockets. They spotted two aircraft described as B-57s being refuelled on the tarmac and a Sabre in one of the blast pens and attacked them before turning for the next run. The Pakistanis at Shorkot were obviously caught by surprise and the Indians encountered no AAA at all: all eight aircraft recovered safely at Amritsar around noon (local time), their pilots claiming one B-57 and three F-86s as destroyed on the ground. The PAF denied to have suffered any losses: no PAF B-57s ever landed at Shorkot during the 1971 War while the destroyed Sabres should have been decoys. Namely, the Indian gun camera films showed something going up in flames near one of attacked PAF Sabres; the Sabre in question, however, can be seen to be painted “silver-grey” overall, while Sabre F.Mk.6s based at Shorkot were all camouflaged in dark sea grey and green. The claims that IAF Su-7s equipped for reconnaissance later on photographed a destroyed B-57 in Shorkot cannot be confirmed. Nevertheless, the PAF did suffer a loss during this attack, when the Sabre F.Mk.6 “1689”, flown by Flt.Lt. Nayyar Iqbal, suffered an engine flame-out during the take off, and crashed.

3- Meanwhile, No.20 Squadron Hunters, flown by Sqn.Ldr. Mistry and Sqn.Ldr. Bajpai, attacked Murid, causing lots of damage: they claimed destruction of no less but six F-86Fs of the No.15 Squadron PAF and causing much damage to installations. In fact, only one F-86F, “1187” was destroyed.

4- This time the Pakistani AAA-gunners were alerted in time and the Indians encountered fierce resistance, losing the No.4 of their formation (Flt.Lt. Grewal ejected and became PoW) even if claiming two Sabres destroyed on the ground, and the Sabre of Flt.Lt. Iqbal, caught in the open while rolling for take off. In fact, Iqbal’s Sabre was only damaged and later repaired.


http://s188567700.online.de/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=161&Itemid=47


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P.S : All these claims were made on 4 Dec 1971....Anyways overall a good article to read...Both Air Forces fought with bravery and we all should be proud of them...There is no point in be-litteling the other but when it comes to 71 war(atleast) it is said that IAF did manage to achieve its objective whereas PAF failed to achieve its objective...Before people start jumping on my neck let me write those objectives

- IAF Objective : Take the offensive to PAF and force them to take defensive posture

IAF was able to achieve it...There 60% sorties were offensive and they were able to provide ground support whereever needed...Ultimately it helped in Indian Victory

- PAF Objective : Cripple the IAF and deny them the will and means to bring offensive to PAF
Pakistan pre-emptive strike failed to achieve its objective and thereafter they had to play defensive...Only 30% of their sorties were offensive...Also they failed to provide ground support to troops on few very important missions...

a) Longewal - This was Pakistani thrust that had the capacity to win major chunk of Land to Pak
b) Karachi Bombing and few more... - We all know about famous smoke from Oil deposits in Pak...Bloackade by IN and succesful Karachi Operation was indeed IAF biggest succesful mission...

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My next post would be to introspect if the claimed disparity between IAF and PAF was that huge as made out to be??

 

[deckingraj]

Disparity b/w IAF and PAF Post

Was Disparity between IAF and PAF as big as was made out to be in 1971 war???? Mind it by no stretch of Imagination i am saying that disparity was not there...but was it as huge as is made out to be???

I asked myself the same question and then thought what could be good parameters to find it out...

- Radar Coverage...
- Number of Fighters...
- Quality of Fighters...
- Missiles that these fighters were equipped with...


Lets look at them one by one...

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Section 1 : Radars

Before we jump into numbers some links for novice like me....

What is an Air Search Radar??

http://www.tpub.com/content/fc/12404/css/12404_17.htm

What is a Fire Control Radar??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire-control_radar

What is a height finding radar??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Height_finder


Now lets look at what India and Pakistan ordered from 1950-1971. You might be surprised but India whose airspace is 3.4 times that of Pakistan(Combined East and West) and almost 4 times(west pakistan) had only twice the number of Air Search Radars then what Pakistan possessed...Not only that if i combine all the different kind of radars that Pakistan had, then Pakistan(49) end up having more radars then India(46)...Wholly SH1T!!!

P.S : We all know how much was the disparity between Air Power of West and East Pakistan so keep that in mind when imagining how much actual disparity was between IAF and PAF as far as western sector is concerned....Also major concentration of radars would be at western sector as far as IAF and PAF goes...Though density of radars was in PAF favor because of India's Eastern wing in respect to China...

Now let me give you some insight into different kind of Radars that PAF and IAF had....

INDIA

Air search radar
P-12/Spoon Rest 20
P-15/Flat Face-A 20
THD-1955 6

Total Number (46)


Fire Control Radar
None

Height Finding Radar
None

[PAKISTAN]

Air search radar
P-37/Bar Lock 2
AN/FPS-20 2
Type -13 3
Type -14 3
Type - 15 2

AR-1 6
AR-15 3
HF-200 1

Total Number (22)


Fire Control Radar
Type-501B 25


Height Finding Radar
AN/FPS-6 2
PRV-11/Side Net 2

Total Number(4)

Note: I have not done any comparison of how these radars fair against each other and assuming Indian radars(Russian Origin) are atleast at par with Pakistani counterparts(US, UK origin) if not better...

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Section 2 : Number of Fighters

No doubt about it that IAF was numerical superior to its counterparts PAF...IAF was fielding about 650+ fighters whereas PAF had 280+ so clearly a disparity of 2.3 : 1 in India's favor...

but is it the right way of comparison??? We all know that relations with China were not good at that time...And relation between China and Pakistan were pretty good...On top of that US was also tilting towards Pakistan and USSR towards India....So keeping all this in mind how unfair it would be that IAF had to keep reserves for China on Eastern Border??? So all in all IAF had to take care of three major tasks

- Ground Support to Troops in East Pakistan
- Air Superiority in Western Sector to deny Pakistan Troops much needed Air Support
- Keep Reserves in Eastern Sector for China

Now considering all this do you guys really think that disparity was 2.3:1??? Anyways lets leave it there and move on to third topic....

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Section 3 : Quality of Fighters

Here lets concentrate on composition of modern fighters that both forces hold...

P.S : here i am not taking into account any fighter that came as help to PAF during war for example Jordan F-104 since we have conflict in weather they were used or not....

Note : I am including only numbers of fighters that were delivered between 1960-1970..Obviously these fighters would compromise the most advanced fighters of both the Air Forces...

P.S : I am not taking into account how many were lost in 65 war or accidents or non-functional due to spares...We already know the numerical disparity in section 2...This section is strictly for Quality...

Pakistan

The following fighters comprises backbone of PAF...

F-6 : 72 were delivered by China as AID in 65-66..Another 103 were on order between 71-72...Can't say how much were delivered before the war....However With pakistan on war i won't be surprised if quick delivery of a significant number took place...but just to be fair lets keep them out of equation...

Mirage -3E : Conflict in the number(24 or 28)...So for now lets stick to 24.

Mirage -5 : Again 30 were on order between 71-72. Since conflicts so lets keep them out of equation...

F-86F Sabres : 90 were delivered from Germany in 1966

F-104A : 10 from US in 1961-62
F-104B : 2 from US in 1961-62


India

The following fighters comprises backbone of IAF

Mig-21(Fishbed C) : 10
Mig-21(Fishbed D) : 206-approx(note : India got 256 from 1964-1973)
Su-7b : 140
Gnat : 200 Approx
Hunter : 48
Canberra : 12

Now i will leave the comparison to experts out here...However if we leave the disparity of numbers then PAF were equipped with the likes of Mirages, F-104, Sabres...India had Mig-21 and Su-7b and gnats...Moreover the only jet that was fitted with A2A Missile in IAF was Mig-21...Rest were dependent on their canons...On the other hand F-104, Mirage and Sabres were fitted with A2A missiles which also comprised bulk of their fighters whereas 2/3 of IAF fighters were only dependent on cannons to do their job...So in short the best and bulk of PAF fighters had huge advantage over IAF counterparts i.e. A2A missile....


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Section 4 : Missiles

Now lets talk about missiles....

Pakistan
F-104, Mirage III and F-86F Sabres were fitted with AIM-9B Sidewinder-1A SRAAM

http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/sidinder.htm

India
Mig-21 was fitted with Russian R-13S SRAAM

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/aa-2.htm


Comparison

It is being claimed that R-13S was russian copy of Sidewinder...Here is what is being attributed to Sidewinder

"The AIM-9 Sidewinder is the world's most successful short-range air-to-air missile"

As far as both the missiles fair against each other then one can easily make up their mind that unlike PAF IAF was very unhappy with the performance of their A2A missile....Rest i will leave it to experts...


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Conclusion : There is no doubt IAF had numerical superiority over PAF...but was it superior in quality as well??? I don't think so

- PAF fighters were equipped with better and more reliable A2A
- Bulk of PAF fighters were equipped with A2A missiles whereas 2/3 of IAF fighters were without A2A missiles
- PAF had better radar coverage then their counterparts
- Numerical Advantage was not 2.3:1 in IAF favor, it was way less then that because it was negated by other factors...Also if we add fighters that were given by friendly country(Jordan,China etc) then disparity will reduce considerably...

In essence numerical superiority of IAF was negated by PAF by having luxury of better radar coverage and better missiles

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@Members please share your thoughts but please without personal insults and national jingoism....


Source : This is provided by my friend Growler...

http://armstrade.sipri.org/armstrade/page/trade_register.php

 

[jbond197]

^^^
Best post on this thread. Very well analyzed and Balanced. Good job DR!