Discuss PAK-IND air wars

[Windjammer]

@ deckingraj, let me correct you once again on the following point you are prone to repeating.

- May be you missed it but your buddy windjammer himself said that F-104 were offered to you by US..but PAk declined...

Read to your hearts content the second last paragraph (Above MIG-21 Verses MIG-21), and see if you can make out that the decision to phase out the F-104 was on the cards even in September 1970, well over a year before the war started.

 

[deckingraj]

@ deckingraj, let me correct you once again on the following point you are prone to repeating.
Read to your hearts content the second last paragraph (Above MIG-21 Verses MIG-21), and see if you can make out that the decision to phase out the F-104 was on the cards even in September 1970, well over a year before the war started.

You are back with your bigger fonts...I request you once again not to provoke like this...I can easily reply in the same tone..

Anyways if you have lost touch to the topic then let me tell you why am i repeating this...

- As per growler the reason for phasing out F-104 was lack of spare parts
- As per you F-104 was phased out as planned even though US offered them in 71...

Now you are accusing me of repeating same things but failed to recognize this conflicting reasons among you too...interesting isn't it??

Now let me set the records straight...I never once said that Mig-21 were the only reasons for demise of F-104..I always said they played a part....

All the ordered Mirag III(24 as per PAF) were delivered to you before 71 war...So what did you planned to replace F-104 with???? Are you saying that you ordered 30 Mirage V(71-72) to replace 8 F-104's??? Mind it i am not saying that it did not make sense to replace F-104 with a better platform but since we all agree that indeed Mig-21 outperformed F-104 in 71 war so isn't it logical to say that it acted as the final nail in the coffin...

P.S : I don't want to get fussy on it....F-104 was replaced by PAF due to Mig-21 before or after the war i do not care...You two guys(Growler and Windjammer) are not on same page and thus have to repeat this again and again...All that i care is Mig-21 outperformed F-104 and earned 4 kills(2 PAF and 2 Jordian's)...lets concentrate on that part..

 

[American Eagle]

The shoot down of an IAF Canberra over Rawalpindi in April 1965 is new news to me and very much appreciated. I will share now one first hand fact that was behind my question. In April 1965 I lived in a USMAAG staff house, next door to the MAAG staff house occuped by Major General George Ruhlen, USA, who then headed the USMAAG mission to all of Pakistan, West and East. The General's aide-de-camp was my housemate as an Army Captain...he is himself now a retired Major General, US Army. On a Saturday in April, I don't have the exact date which was one reason I hoped and still hope someone will find either a PAF or IAF record with that date, which would have been a Saturday...we were playing volleyball in our side yard. We stopped the game to watch a very high altitude Canberra coming in from the direction of India which overflew, at high altitude the Karachi Harbor, where the Pakistani Navy was largely at anchor. Being in P.E.C.H.S. suburb of Karachi, nearer Drigg Road Airfield and Karachi Civil Airport, we could not hear anything. We saw the Canberra and it's vapor trail. Two other USMAAF Navy housemates, both US Navy Lieutenant's, told us on Monday after work that their Pakistani counterparts said the high altitude Canberra we saw was IAF...that it tried to bomb the Pak Navy at anchor, but the bombs fell in an area of sand spits near the habor entrance, missing the at anchor Paksitani Navy ships. I myself saw the high altitude Canberra and it's vapor trail. Not using binoculars I could not see it's "markings."

Still be interested in anyone comes up with more info from Pak records. Maybe the Pakistani Navy records during April 1965 would have more detailed info?

Thanks for the Rawalpindi info on an IAF Canberra shot down in April, 1965.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

.But if you read carefully even the post that you have replied to I am only claiming that one of the reason that F-104 were retired because Mig-21 outperformed them... Fair???

f-104 was retired because only 6 were left and due to lack of adequate spares.
The Squadron 9 was only left with only 5 operational Starfighters and they were better off with inducting more capable or reliable aircraft.
Your reason for F-104 retirement is merely your opinion. Another Indian could say F-104 was retired right after 71 war was because PAF was bankrupt and whipped out.

Now let me tell you why i am stuck on this...
- You in earlier post said that PAF retired them because there were only 6 left...I corrected you saying that after 67 they had only 8...so if they could operate 8 without spares what was wrong with 6 after/during war when Kissinger supported you whole heartedly.....

After 1965, due to lack of spares the state of F-104 in PAF became very poor and No.9 Sqadron pilots had to complete their flying hours flying different type of fighters.
Their were few countries who were able to supply limited spares.

- May be you missed it but your buddy windjammer himself said that F-104 were offered to you by US..but PAk declined.../QUOTE]
F-104 were not offered in early 1970s when PAF was under sanctions.

I have been to SIPRI site and have compared the two missiles...you are right about numbers because IAF should have atleast 1400-1500 of those missile from 1963-1971 vs 500 AIM 9B ...However as per various sources RS 13S was a copy of Sidewinder AIM 9A whereas Pakistan was operation AIM 9B...The first copy of AIM9A was introduced by USSR in 1961....May be in the later half IAF would have got equivalent to AIM-9G as you are saying but please provide a source for this because i could not find any..Fair???....Also why are you negating the fact that IAF discarded this version(whatever they were using) right after the war...Doesn't this proove that missile performance was not worth???

PAF was supplied with used Aim-9B from US stocks which were near to its self life.
On the other hand. IAF used R-3S also called K-13 variant of (ASCC-Code AA-2 Atoll).

Comparison of Aim-9B vs R-3S AA-2

The AIM-9A, prototype of the Sidewinder, was first fired successfully in September 1953. The initial production version, designated AIM-9B, entered the Air Force inventory in 1956 and was effective only at close range. It could not engage targets close to the ground, nor did it have nighttime or head-on attack capability. These shortcomings were eliminated on subsequent versions.

LINKAIM-9/A/B
First 3 nearly identical versions. AIM-9B most numerous production version with almost 80,000 manufactured by Philco (later Ford) and Raytheon. Lightest variant at 155 lb (70.4 kg), blunt warhead had vacuum tubes and an uncooled lead sulfide (PbS) seeker with 25-deg Field of View (FOV) and 11-deg per second tracking, 20-deg "dead zone" (i.e., where an engine plume is obscured by the sun) later reduced to 5 deg, 70 Hz reticle scan, passive Infrared (IR) fuze, and triangular cruciform foreplanes. Thousands of B-models were rebuilt as E/J models.

LINKDuring the same period, Air Force crews fired 175 Aim-9B sidewinder heat-seeking missiles for 25 kills, yielding a slightly higher success rate of 16 percent.

AA-2 R-3S / K-13

LINK
Gennadiy Sokolovskiy, later chief engineer at the Vympel team, said that "the Sidewinder missile was to us a university offering a course in missile construction technology which has upgraded our engineering education and updated our approach to production of future missiles."
The Soviets soon made advances over the original Sidewinder model, making dozen of modifications to the initial design. In 1960 series-production of the K-13 missile (also called R-3 or Object 310) began.

LINKThe missile was initially introduced as armament for the MiG-21F-13, which sacrificed one of its two cannon in order to carry two K-13s, but all subsequent variants of the MiG-21 would be equipped with launchers for the K-13 (commonly from two large adapter shoes (which housed the seeker cooling system) mounted on underwing pylons. In addition to the MiG-21, the K-13 was occasionally seen on the MiG-17PFU fighter-trainer as a substitute for the earlier AA-1 missile.

As with many Soviet AAMs of the Cold War era, the K-13 was built in two main variants. The R-3R semi-active radar homing model (SARH) with a range of 4.9 miles (8 km) and the IR-homing R-3S version (IRHM) which had a similar range and was also carried by the MiG-23S swept-wing fighter which lacked the of RP-23 radar to enable it to launch the intended R-23R (AA-7 Apex). A later version, the IR-Homing R-3M (NATO AA-2-2 ‘Advanced Atoll’) would have an increased range of 6.2-8.1 miles (10-13 km) and this version would make its debut on the MiG-21bis to augment the R-3R SARH.

So AIM-9B close to its self life was no way better then upgraded variant of soviet AA-2 the R-3S. IAF had the quantity and quality advantage.

It was you who claimed that Pak did not have that good relations with US...Since now you are in agreement that from 1950-1965(before Arms Embargo) US was giving you state of art weapons in form of AID as well we can now move on...

F-86, F-104 were no state of the art fighter in mid 60s when US had variety of more advance combat aircrafts such as F-4, F-105, F-5 etc that they could offer.

What i am trying to tell you is that Pak being close to US and India-Russia bonhomie just started after 1962 debacle it is quite obvious that Pak will have comparatively better quality of Arms then Indian counterparts...It can also be easily verified if you go to same SIPRI site which clearly shows that first arms export from USSR to India happen in 1961 wheras US was supplying weapons to Pak as back as 1956...This disparity(in quality) negated a bit due to Arms Embargo after 65...India was still getting her weapons from USSR wheras Pak had to depend on China, France, UK...

What rubbish? Specially your bold part! It is so sickening to read this absurd remark. It was India that was closer to Europe specially France, and Britain when Pakistan started to receive weapons from US. However after 1965 war Pakistan was ditched by US and India got another supplier and a reliable strategic partner the USSR. When PAK was under US sanctions after 65 war India had the luxury to build up its military with European, and Soviet equipments while PAK had China only.

however would we be doing a fair job if we do not look at the ground realities of that time??? I always said 280+ vs 650+ is a disparity...but when you consider other factors this is not as huge as it is made to be....Again more details are in my post on Disparity...Please share your thoughts there...

What other factors? Sorry buddy but China did not even have their air force deployed even close to 100 KM to Indian borders.
All of your 780+ combat air crafts including reserves were deployed against Pakistan during 71 war.

I am not deluding myself...i have many times said disparity was there...I am only saying that it was not as big as made out to be...for example...You very well mentioned 2 generation planes(Mig-21) fitted with better missiles(still to be proved) but failed to mention all other vintage aircrafts had no missiles at all...whereas you so called vintage aircrafts F-86, F-104, F-6 had....In fact it was our Migs which kept you on defensive posture so i am not challenging that aspect...All i am saying is if 1/3 of IAF aircrafts were better equipped then 2/3 of our Aircrafts were at a big disadvantage viz-a-viz PAF counterparts...Do you agree to this or not???

Certainly it is you who is making this non existent Indian disparity with Pakistan.
70 F-86 7 F-104 and 18 F-6 with inferior AIm-9b is not superior as you are making out to be. Read above links... The Aim-9B was very ineffective with limited capabilities in areal combats.
Where as IAF possessed a 2 generation advance fighter aircraft the Mig-21.
The Hunters and Gnats even without AAM were still more capable in dogfights then Sabres and F-104s. The Hunters in cr@p pilots hands during arab Isreal war were a big headache to IDAF pilots with way wayyyyyy superior aircraft then F-104 or Sabres. How ever a Hunter in a capable pilot hands is a very very deadly in dogfights. PAF single pilot shot down 3 IDAF aircrafts during 6 day war in hunter.
The IDAF were lucky to have destroyed most of arabs fighters on the ground before the war even started.
So no, hardly 100 PAF fighters equipped with Aim-9B with only 16% kill ratio is no better then IAF Gnat, Hunters fleet. (except F-6)

 

[Myth_buster_1]

one of the topic of debate was about Jordan-F104...were they used in combat?? If they were then did IAF killed any of them??

Here are few neutral links that suggests that indeed Jordan F-104 were used in combat and were lost in IAF fire




F-104 Starfighter users
The above link clearly suggest that Pakistan lost 4 aircraft in 71 war...Now as per PAF Official position they had 8 F-104 prior to 71 war. They lost 2 and 6 of them are in museum...Now can anyone explain why they don't think the other two losses were Jordian's F-104??

Check the link and came to conclusion that its merely a fanboy club thing website. Sadly the fanboy did not even take the effort to research a bit more to come up with a neutral POV rather then Indian POV which ironically is the case with present websites. The F-104 also achieved 1st Mach2 Kill, surrendered a Gnat (a world record) and many more achievements which author did not show.

I know you guys are not convinced...Now let me share more information...Not sure about others but atleast my friend Growler can vouch for impartiality of this site...Just look at the confirmed kills by IAF(i will highlight for you)




This clearly suggest that there were confirmed 4 kills of F-104 by IAF...Now can my Pakistani friends suggests that if these were not Jordan's F-104 then whose F-104 were these???

Anyways there is more in this link...




http://s188567700.online.de/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=162&Itemid=47



Now can i expect my Pakistani friends to accept with open mind that indeed there were more F-104's killed by IAF then accepted by PAF??? Also Jordian F-104 did see combat(i agree at later end of conflict) but 2 of them were shot down by IAF....

My next post would be on some of false claims by both sides...

Ok how about this..

Lets settle this issue of "which air force shot down more aircraft in 1971 war" if you agree to ACIG confirmed PAF kills vs IAF in 1971 war I will agree to your claim that indeed 4 F-104 were shot down.

Fair enough?

 

[Patriot]

The shoot down of an IAF Canberra over Rawalpindi in April 1965 is new news to me and very much appreciated. I will share now one first hand fact that was behind my question. In April 1965 I lived in a USMAAG staff house, next door to the MAAG staff house occuped by Major General George Ruhlen, USA, who then headed the USMAAG mission to all of Pakistan, West and East. The General's aide-de-camp was my housemate as an Army Captain...he is himself now a retired Major General, US Army. On a Saturday in April, I don't have the exact date which was one reason I hoped and still hope someone will find either a PAF or IAF record with that date, which would have been a Saturday...we were playing volleyball in our side yard. We stopped the game to watch a very high altitude Canberra coming in from the direction of India which overflew, at high altitude the Karachi Harbor, where the Pakistani Navy was largely at anchor. Being in P.E.C.H.S. suburb of Karachi, nearer Drigg Road Airfield and Karachi Civil Airport, we could not hear anything. We saw the Canberra and it's vapor trail. Two other USMAAF Navy housemates, both US Navy Lieutenant's, told us on Monday after work that their Pakistani counterparts said the high altitude Canberra we saw was IAF...that it tried to bomb the Pak Navy at anchor, but the bombs fell in an area of sand spits near the habor entrance, missing the at anchor Paksitani Navy ships. I myself saw the high altitude Canberra and it's vapor trail. Not using binoculars I could not see it's "markings."

Still be interested in anyone comes up with more info from Pak records. Maybe the Pakistani Navy records during April 1965 would have more detailed info?

Thanks for the Rawalpindi info on an IAF Canberra shot down in April, 1965.

I am sure you're also aware of another shot down of IAF Canberra before the war
(On 10 April 1959, on the occasion of the Islamic Eid ul-Fitr festival holiday in Pakistan, an Indian Air Force (IAF) English Electric Canberra B(I)58 intruded into Pakistani airspace on a photo reconnaissance mission. Two PAF F-86F Sabres from No. 15 Squadron on Air Defence Alert (ADA) were scrambled from Peshawar Air Base to intercept the IAF intruder. The Sabre pilots were Flt. Lt. M. N. Butt (leader) and Flt. Lt. M. Yunus (wingman) whereas Pilot Officer Rab Nawaz was the on-duty Air Defence Controller for this mission. Nawaz successfully vectored both Sabres to the location of the high-flying Canberra. Butt attempted to bring down the Canberra by firing his Sabre's machine guns but the Canberra was flying at an altitude of more than 50,000 feet - beyond the operational ceiling of the F-86F. When Yunus took over from his leader, the Canberra suddenly lost height while executing a turn over Rawalpindi. Yunus grabbed this opportunity and fired a burst from his 12.7 mm guns that struck the Canberra at an altitude of 47,500 feet and brought it down over Rawat, near Rawalpindi. Thus, PAF drew 'first blood' against the IAF. '55-5005' was the serial number of the F-86F Sabre that was flown by Flt. Lt. Yunus that day. Both the occupants of the IAF Canberra, namely Sqn. Ldr. J.C. Sen Gupta (pilot) and Flt. Lt. S.N. Rampal (navigator) from the IAF's No. 106 Sqn., ejected and were taken prisoner by Pakistani authorities and were subsequently released after remaining in detention for some time.)

 

[deckingraj]

f-104 was retired because only 6 were left and due to lack of adequate spares.
The Squadron 9 was only left with only 5 operational Starfighters and they were better off with inducting more capable or reliable aircraft. Your reason for F-104 retirement is merely your opinion. Another Indian could say F-104 was retired right after 71 war was because PAF was bankrupt and whipped out.

I think we have discussed this particular aspect way more that it deserve to be....Anyways the reason i am asking you again and again because there are certain things that i am not able to answer...Help me there if you can...

- Arms Embargo was strated in 1965...
- As per PAF records they were lift with only 8 working F-104's in 1967(4 years before the war)
- As per SIPRI 24 Mirage-III were delivered to you in 1968

Now please explain when you were suffering from spare parts problem why you did not retire these fighters in peace time and ordered more Mirages???

- In 1971-72 you ordered 30 Mirage V and finally retired F-104's even though spare parts issue was no longer a problem. As per Windjammer(he even shares newspaper cutting) US offered you more F-104's...

Don't you think something is not matching here??? Just assume my version is totally wrong but help me out here...The above hard facts and your reasoning of spare parts is not matching Growler...

After 1965, due to lack of spares the state of F-104 in PAF became very poor and No.9 Sqadron pilots had to complete their flying hours flying different type of fighters. Their were few countries who were able to supply limited spares.

And i totally agree with you...What i am questioning is that during arms embargo you were able to fly these fighters facing all those hardships but choose to retire them right after war when more fighters/spare parts were offered....I am not able to make sense out of it...need some help...thanks in advance...

F-104 were not offered in early 1970s when PAF was under sanctions.

So in essense you agree that F-104 were offered after the war...kewl atleast now you and Windjammer are on same page...Please care to answer the questions above and

- When did you actually planned to retire F-104 and what did you replaced it with??? Mirage-III were already delivered and Mirage V was delivered in 71-72...

P.S : I do not buy the spare parts theory because when you actually retired the fighters you had the opportunity to carry on with them...Buying spare parts would have been far more cost effective then buying new fighters...Now please tell me do you honestly think Mig-21 played no part before or after war in this decision???

PAF was supplied with used Aim-9B from US stocks which were near to its self life.
On the other hand. IAF used R-3S also called K-13 variant of (ASCC-Code AA-2 Atoll).Comparison of Aim-9B vs R-3S AA-2AA-2 R-3S / K-13So AIM-9B close to its self life was no way better then upgraded variant of soviet AA-2 the R-3S. IAF had the quantity and quality advantage.

Hang on there...Soviet's came up with a copy of Sidewinder called R-13S in 1961...This is the time when you were getting delivery of this missile from US...I have clearly said the later on IAF would definitely have got the better version of missile then Sidewinder AIM-9B however there is no source that tell the same....The link that you have shared is just a claim that R-13s was better than AIM-9B though quite interestingly a copy becomes better then original version...Still since i a have trust in your knowledge background so i will do more research and get back to you...Till then lets assumr R-13s was better then Sidewinder Aim-9B....Fair??

However why are you ignoring the fact that IAF denounced the version right after the war...Does this say anything about the advanced missile??? Also are you saying that Sabres, F-6, F-104's equipped with Aim-9B was no match for Hunters with its canon??? Did you really said that Growler??? It is well known that one has to use to weakness of the enemy but thats is what the rule of engagement is....F-104 was never meant for DogFights,..it was hit and run platform and IAF calle dit hooligan because of sheer speed...IAF was intimitaded by this fighter in 65 war when we had plenty of Gnats and Hunters......If would be wrong for you to say Gnats or Hunters were better in Dog Fighting and thus disparity was not there....Hunters and Gnats were sitting ducks to F-104 unless and until they do not engage it in Dog-fight...So it boils down to tactics which would always be the case...but why are we trying to ignore the disparity?? Are you saying F-104's always engaged in dog fights???

On Paper Hunters and Gnats were sitting ducks against F-104 armed with Aim-9B...Do you agree or not???

F-86, F-104 were no state of the art fighter in mid 60s when US had variety of more advance combat aircrafts such as F-4, F-105, F-5 etc that they could offer.

So are you saying that Hunters and Gnats were state of art combat aircrafts during 60's??? It is very obvious that your were a NOn-Nato ally and you will get downgraded weapons then what USAF was using...Does this mean that relations were not good???

Do you want me to post all the weapons that you got in AID from US during 1956-1965???? They were more advanced then your adversary and that's what matters...You introduced A2A missile in subcontinent way back in 1959 when IAF had no clue about it...Does this account to any good relations or not???

What rubbish? Specially your bold part! It is so sickening to read this absurd remark. It was India that was closer to Europe specially France, and Britain when Pakistan started to receive weapons from US. However after 1965 war Pakistan was ditched by US and India got another supplier and a reliable strategic partner the USSR. When PAK was under US sanctions after 65 war India had the luxury to build up its military with European, and Soviet equipments while PAK had China only.

This is least expected from you...Growler i am not a fanboy who want to glorify IAF...If they indeed did bad i will not loose my sleep...In the end we won the war and that's what matters to me even if it was MB who fought and IA was sleeping, i simply don't care...

Are you in denial mode or it was an honest mistake as far as bolded part is concerned??? If PAK had only china then where did 24 Mirage III came from??? How about 90 F-86F Sabres that you got from Germany?? Obviously when you had US to take care of your needs(and that bulk in AID) why would you need more partners(though it was mistake to put all your eggs in one basket)...and what did you say about UK??? Do you want me to list weapons that you got from UK even after US imposed Arms embargo???

What other factors? Sorry buddy but China did not even have their air force deployed even close to 100 KM to Indian borders. All of your 780+ combat air crafts including reserves were deployed against Pakistan during 71 war.

Comon growler...Firstly it was 680+, secondly even they did not move their military towards border...Does that mean we did not keep reserves in our eastern sector(in case they choose to)??? Don't you agree that there was a real chance of China joining in(Even US backed them)...IAF would be bunch of fools if they would have ignored that threat....

Certainly it is you who is making this non existent Indian disparity with Pakistan. 70 F-86 7 F-104 and 18 F-6 with inferior AIm-9b is not superior as you are making out to be. Read above links... The Aim-9B was very ineffective with limited capabilities in areal combats.Where as IAF possessed a 2 generation advance fighter aircraft the Mig-21.The Hunters and Gnats even without AAM were still more capable in dogfights then Sabres and F-104s. The Hunters in cr@p pilots hands during arab Isreal war were a big headache to IDAF pilots with way wayyyyyy superior aircraft then F-104 or Sabres. How ever a Hunter in a capable pilot hands is a very very deadly in dogfights. PAF single pilot shot down 3 IDAF aircrafts during 6 day war in hunter. The IDAF were lucky to have destroyed most of arabs fighters on the ground before the war even started. So no, hardly 100 PAF fighters equipped with Aim-9B with only 16% kill ratio is no better then IAF Gnat, Hunters fleet. (except F-6)

Where you are missing me is that i always said disparity was there between India and Pakistan...I never once said the opposite...What i am saying is that it was not as huge as made out to be...You had better radar coverage, More percentage of fighters equipped with A2A missile apart from other geo-political factors(China) did negate the numerical superiority to some extent...

Moreover F-86F Sabre was a very potent platform and many experts have placed it higher then Hunters and Gnats by a significant margin...Anyways i would let this one go or else our posts would become to big to conclude anything...

 

[deckingraj]

Wow...way to go growler..Wasn't it you who suggested me to have an open mind??? Are you reciprocating???

Check the link and came to conclusion that its merely a fanboy club thing website. Sadly the fanboy did not even take the effort to research a bit more to come up with a neutral POV rather then Indian POV which ironically is the case with present websites. The F-104 also achieved 1st Mach2 Kill, surrendered a Gnat (a world record) and many more achievements which author did not show.

You just debunk anything which do not match with Pakistan POV....Author is not Indian and that's what matter to me...

This website is to keep data about F-104 user's...This is not to glorify PAF or IAF..Let me highlight about who is maintaining the records...

"This page, and all contents, are Copyright © protected by U.S. and International law for the F-104 Society Inc. The Netherlands."

All they are telling is how many were lost and when...Read this line again...

Although quite successful the Pakistans lost 2 aircraft in the 1965 war and 4 aircraft in the 1971 war

Ok how about this..Lets settle this issue of "which air force shot down more aircraft in 1971 war" if you agree to ACIG confirmed PAF kills vs IAF in 1971 war I will agree to your claim that indeed 4 F-104 were shot down. Fair enough?

Wow...Now since i showed the same thing claimed by the link you gave me now you have chosen these tactics...Anyways as said i am here to learn and not glorify IAF....Even before you entered this denial mode i went on to compare the confirmed kills of PAF

http://s188567700.online.de/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=171&Itemid=47

However unfortunately there is some issue in this link...Everything is in green..Even the color stats which tells what color represents what...Look at

Confirmed entries are in GREEN
New entries are in RED
Corrected entries are in YELLOW
Fratricide entries are in LIGHT BLUE
Claims and unconfirmed entries are in WHITE
Damaged and Close Calls entries are in VIOLET

and compare this section with IAF Air victories..

http://s188567700.online.de/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=162&Itemid=47

Since then i am trying to find out a way to contact these people and request them to fix their page...This was last updated on Feb10, 2008 and being a software engg. can simply vouch that developer has introduced a bug there...

P.S : by the way did you miss my post where i highlighted some of the false claims made by both IAF and PAF...I other words i don't care if PAF scored more kills then IAF..I am here to learn...How about you??


Also you might have missed but i provided another neutral link way back which claims that Jordan F-104 took part in combat and PAF suffered significant losses to F-104..

Pakistani F-104s fought in the 1971 war with India as well, assisted by Jordanian Starfighters. If the Indians had indeed been intimidated by the F-104 in the 1965 war, they weren't six years later. Even the Pakistanis admitted they didn't do so well, with up to seven losses and relatively few kills.

[3.0] F-104 In Foreign Service (2)

P.S : Do play special attention to their sources...

******************************************************************

I have showed you three neutral links(one of them endorsed by you) which clearly proves that Jordan F-104 did see combat(later part of the war) and IAF indeed shot atleast 2 of them...Now it is up to you to agree to it or debunk it and live in denial...

 

[Windjammer]

You are back with your bigger fonts...I request you once again not to provoke like this...I can easily reply in the same tone..

You are being touchy over irrelevant issues. Nonetheless.

Anyways if you have lost touch to the topic then let me tell you why am i repeating this...

- As per growler the reason for phasing out F-104 was lack of spare parts

That was indeed also the case with the few aircraft left with the PAF after the war.

- As per you F-104 was phased out as planned even though US offered them in 71...

Any wonder why i resort to bigger fonts for you, let me repeat for the umpteenth time, they were offered in September 1970, well over a year before the war.(Read the piece in the article i posted again)

Now you are accusing me of repeating same things but failed to recognize this conflicting reasons among you too...interesting isn't it??

And here is me hoping that you may have finally absorbed the fact that you are all confused in a pre and post scenario.

Now let me set the records straight...I never once said that Mig-21 were the only reasons for demise of F-104..I always said they played a part....

Let me ask you in this manner, the IAF has decided to phase out the MIG-27 at some point, then a war breaks out, would it really matter how the Flogger performs since it's fate has already been sealed.

All the ordered Mirag III(24 as per PAF) were delivered to you before 71 war...So what did you planned to replace F-104 with???? Are you saying that you ordered 30 Mirage V(71-72) to replace 8 F-104's??? Mind it i am not saying that it did not make sense to replace F-104 with a better platform but since we all agree that indeed Mig-21 outperformed F-104 in 71 war so isn't it logical to say that it acted as the final nail in the coffin...

I know you repeatedly disclose a lack of military background but let me say that you also seem to present a case of debenture. The Mirage III was ordered to off set the growing numbers of MIG-21s in the IAF, however the follow up order for Mirage V was both to replace the older F-86s and the few F-104s.
The articles we posted were also meant to enhance your knowledge into the background of your dilemma, and all above information was present there.

P.S : I don't want to get fussy on it....F-104 was replaced by PAF due to Mig-21 before or after the war i do not care...You two guys(Growler and Windjammer) are not on same page and thus have to repeat this again and again...All that i care is Mig-21 outperformed F-104 and earned 4 kills(2 PAF and 2 Jordian's)...lets concentrate on that part..

It seems that you are on a mission of bewilderment and since you are incapable of comprehending the factual history, your imagination is playing tricks with you. Let me remind you the psyche of the argument was the role of Jordanian F-104s in the war of 1971, albeit you are adamant to convince yourself that the PAF F-104s were retired due to their performance vis-a-vis MIG-21, but you have failed miserably to address the real issue.

 

[deckingraj]

The problem with you is personal slurs that you add in your post which makes it impossible to talk with you...How about if i say you have lost your mind...or smoking weed because you are not able to comprehend what i have said umpteenth time???

You are being touchy over irrelevant issues. Nonetheless.

No i am not...I am teaching you some internet etiquette which a man of your caliber should already know...Give respect take respect...Simple isn't it???

That was indeed also the case with the few aircraft left with the PAF after the war.

Shall i use bigger font to tell you that after 1967 you had only 8 F-104's...As per PAF you were left with 6 after the war...So in essence your few aircrafts after the war logic is a farce...

Any wonder why i resort to bigger fonts for you, let me repeat for the umpteenth time, they were offered in September 1970, well over a year before the war.(Read the piece in the article i posted again) And here is me hoping that you may have finally absorbed the fact that you are all confused in a pre and post scenario.

Yes you should wonder..because you are replying without even understanding the basic question being asked...Though i agree i did not paid attention to the fact that fighters were offered in September 71...Anyways now let me repeat what i asked growler...

- Why do you think F-104 were phased out??? Was it due to spares or was it because your adversary had better plane in form of Mig-21 or a combination of both??? Ponder over it and then read all my posts...I always maintained Mig-21 played a part...After correction from you way back i started saying before or after war...

Let me ask you in this manner, the IAF has decided to phase out the MIG-27 at some point, then a war breaks out, would it really matter how the Flogger performs since it's fate has already been sealed.

Care to explain where did i challenge this aspect?? However i will not give the reason as lack of spares when i maintain them for four years without spares and phase them out when spares are finally offered ....Why is it so difficult to see that your star fighter(1965 war) had to be phase dout becuase IAF had far more potent platform Mig-21...In fact PAF was right in its decision because Mig-21 did show F-104 its real worth...

I know you repeatedly disclose a lack of military background but let me say that you also seem to present a case of debenture. The Mirage III was ordered to off set the growing numbers of MIG-21s in the IAF, however the follow up order for Mirage V was both to replace the older F-86s and the few F-104s.
The articles we posted were also meant to enhance your knowledge into the background of your dilemma, and all above information was present there.

It seems that you are on a mission of bewilderment and since you are incapable of comprehending the factual history, your imagination is playing tricks with you. Let me remind you the psyche of the argument was the role of Jordanian F-104s in the war of 1971, albeit you are adamant to convince yourself that the PAF F-104s were retired due to their performance vis-a-vis MIG-21, but you have failed miserably to address the real issue.

Ignoring all the personal slurs let me highlight the portion i said which seems your very capable mind ignored...

"Now let me set the records straight...I never once said that Mig-21 were the only reasons for demise of F-104..I always said they played a part...."

P.S : I don't want to get fussy on it....F-104 was replaced by PAF due to Mig-21 before or after the war i do not care...You two guys(Growler and Windjammer) are not on same page and thus have to repeat this again and again...All that i care is Mig-21 outperformed F-104 and earned 4 kills(2 PAF and 2 Jordian's)...lets concentrate on that part..

Did you see i am talking about the real issue and what you say failed to address it ??? care to read post 252,262 and 263....

 

[Windjammer]

The problem with you is personal slurs that you add in your post which makes it impossible to talk with you...How about if i say you have lost your mind...or smoking weed because you are not able to comprehend what i have said umpteenth time???

You can't as i will later point out that you are in a vicious circle.

No i am not...I am teaching you some internet etiquette which a man of your caliber should already know...Give respect take respect...Simple isn't it???

When a person can't even get the basics right, i am sure you will agree that it becomes irritating.

Shall i use bigger font to tell you that after 1967 you had only 8 F-104's...As per PAF you were left with 6 after the war...So in essence your few aircrafts after the war logic is a farce...

The first war took place in 1965 not 1967 as you put it, before the 1971 war, PAF had seven F-104, after the war it was left with four meaning it lost three in the war. Simple.

Yes you should wonder..because you are replying without even understanding the basic question being asked...Though i agree i did not paid attention to the fact that fighters were offered in September 71...Anyways now let me repeat what i asked growler...

There you go again, getting your dates mixed up again, the one time exception of 6 or seven F-104s was offered in September 1970 and not in 1971 as you keep repeating, remember PAF didn't take these and neither were the sanctions lifted. comprehende. ??

- Why do you think F-104 were phased out??? Was it due to spares or was it because your adversary had better plane in form of Mig-21 or a combination of both??? Ponder over it and then read all my posts...I always maintained Mig-21 played a part...After correction from you way back i started saying before or after war...



Care to explain where did i challenge this aspect?? However i will not give the reason as lack of spares when i maintain them for four years without spares and phase them out when spares are finally offered ....Why is it so difficult to see that your star fighter(1965 war) had to be phase dout becuase IAF had far more potent platform Mig-21...In fact PAF was right in its decision because Mig-21 did show F-104 its real worth...

On paper at least, the MIG-21 was supposedly way better than the F-86 and the F-6 (MIG-19), they weren't retired until 1980 and 2002 respectively, the F-104, albeit didn't perform well against the MIG-21 but it still acquitted it'self by destroying double the number of aircraft compared to the loss of three, one of the kills was during a daring daylight strike on Utterlai in which two HF-24s were blown up while taxing. The decision to retire the F-104 had been taken in 1970, the few lumbered on under sanctions for a while and once the Mirage V arrived, they were retired.

Did you see i am talking about the real issue and what you say failed to address it ??? care to read post 262 and 263....

Well, perhaps now you can provide the evidence against the Jordanian aircraft.

 

[deckingraj]

You can't as i will later point out that you are in a vicious circle.

Sure i would love to see it...

When a person can't even get the basics right, i am sure you will agree that it becomes irritating.

not my cup of tea...i would be more than happy to say "I stand Corrected"...However this is about talking with respect..Anyways seems like not your cup of tea...

The first war took place in 1965 not 1967 as you put it, before the 1971 war,

Just wondering if i laugh or hit my head with a wall...I cannot explain you discussions about pervious posts all the time...I very well know when the war's happened..lack of military knowledge does not mean i am blind/dumb..... When i say 1967 then i am refering to PAF records about F-104's...Last aircraft lost due to accident was in 1967 which brought the total to 8 before 71 started...Am i clear now???

PAF had seven F-104, after the war it was left with four meaning it lost three in the war. Simple.

PAF had 8 before the war...and PAF accepted only 2 were lost in war...Are you saying 3??? Anyways i have shows you neutral links claiming atleast 4 were lost to enemy fire.....

Checkout the link given to me by your buddy Growler...
Pakistan Military Consortium :: www.PakDef.info

If this is not suffice then i have one more for you

Warbirds in Pakistan

Seriously bringing you two on same page should not be my job...

There you go again, getting your dates mixed up again, the one time exception of 6 or seven F-104s was offered in September 1970 and not in 1971 as you keep repeating, remember PAF didn't take these and neither were the sanctions lifted. comprehende. ??

Yup...I quoted 71 instead of 70..You are right...but that's not the point...Sep 70 or Sep 71 doesn't make a difference...Your/Growler theory about spare parts and small numbers is wrong/not complete...because clearly you had spare parts available but you refused to take them....Why are you not answering this part??? Look at my post and answer my questions...I stand corrected on date however 70 instead of 71 makes my claim even more stronger...

On paper at least, the MIG-21 was supposedly way better than the F-86 and the F-6 (MIG-19), they weren't retired until 1980 and 2002 respectively, the F-104, albeit didn't perform well against the MIG-21 but it still acquitted it'self by destroying double the number of aircraft compared to the loss of three, one of the kills was during a daring daylight strike on Utterlai in which two HF-24s were blown up while taxing. The decision to retire the F-104 had been taken in 1970, the few lumbered on under sanctions for a while and once the Mirage V arrived, they were retired.

Do you know the number of F-86 and F-6 you had??? How can you retire them in One year...I am sure you very well know about the stop gap measure...Let me repeat not for a second i said that you retire F-104's solely because of Mig...However with introduction of Mig-21 your fighters lost their edge against IAF and had to be eventually replaced...With small number and problems with spare F-104 was the first one to retire...Even though spares were available yet this fighter had lost its charm because PAF very well knew its vulnerability against Mig-21(the interceptor)... Is this good enough or you still disagree???

P.S : I have been very accomodating because my intention is to learn here...I can very easily rebuke your newspaper cuttings from Pakistan sources giving Pakistan POV that decision to replace F-104 was taken before 71 war because the cutting you have shared in written post war and many facts are twisted to unnecessary glorify...However i don't want to take cheap shots... So hoping you will atleast agree to above mentioned theory....

Well, perhaps now you can provide the evidence against the Jordanian aircraft.

Hahaha...Now since i have backed my claims with Independent/Neutral authors you need picture proofs...Sorry my friend i think i have done my job...These sources are reputed, neutral and have no reason to be biased....I claimed something and have showed you independent authors claiming the same...If you can, prove them wrong...On a contrary why don't you put pictures of 10 Jordan Fighters being given back to Jordan and proove me wrong???

 

[Myth_buster_1]

F***kin sssss!!!tttt!
As i was about to finish such a lengthy reply for some **** reason the page vanished!!!!!! arrrrrrrg.

i will make this reply short..

Disparity b/w IAF and PAF Post


Now let me give you some insight into different kind of Radars that PAF and IAF had....

INDIA

Air search radar
P-12/Spoon Rest 20
P-15/Flat Face-A 20
THD-1955 6

Corrections.

- 6 THD-1955 (range: 400-1000 KM)
- 10 P-12/Spoon Rest (Range: 200 KM)
- 10 P-15/Flat Face-A (Range: 200 - 250 KM)
- 10 P-18 (Spoon Rest-B) (Range: 250 KM)
- 10 P-19 (Flat Face-B) (Range: 260 KM)
- *** SNR-75 radars system for 200 SA-2 SAMs.

Fire Control Radar
None

You need to do a bit more research on that. Your SA-2 SAM systems requires fire control radar system.


Pakistan

Air search radar
- 2 P-37/Bar Lock (Range: 200 KM)
- 2 AN/FPS-20 (Range: 300 KM)
- Type -13 ??? which radar is this?
- Type -14 ??? Which radar is this??
- 2 Type - 15 (some Cr@P radar)


- 6 AR-1 (range: 100 KM)
- 3 AR-15 (Range: 150KM
- 1 HF-200 (Range: 200KM)

total 16 radars.

Fire Control Radar
Type-501B 25

Mostly probably a short range fire control radar used by anti-aircraft guns.

Height Finding Radar
AN/FPS-6 2
PRV-11/Side Net 2

FPS-6 merely measures altitude and direction of targets but not the distance from the radar.

Note: I have not done any comparison of how these radars fair against each other and assuming Indian radars(Russian Origin) are atleast at par with Pakistani counterparts(US, UK origin) if not better...

Indian army possessed better radar network capability with very/long range radars.


Section 2 : Number of Fighters

No doubt about it that IAF was numerical superior to its counterparts PAF...IAF was fielding about 650+ fighters whereas PAF had 280+ so clearly a disparity of 2.3 : 1 in India's favor...

Wrong. You are again repeating the same old stuff and you should have been corrected.

And i am getting sick and tired of repeating same old stuff for you again and again. Perhaps its your new tactics?

PAF had 7 operational F-104 on its own and 10 Jordanian F-104s.

Source ACIG.org

The Pakistani fleet of some 50 surviving F-86F Sabres, of which 44 were operational, was reliable, but in an increasingly poor condition. The Sabre was a modern fighter in the 1950s, highly regarded all over the world. By 1971, its subsonic speed and armament of only six machine-guns were considered insufficient, despite better manoeuvrability than most of Indian fighters, or the fact that 24 F-86Fs were modified to carry AIM-9B Sidewinders.
The “advantage” of Sidewinder-armed Sabres was actually of very limited nature.

Thats 44 operational F-86F

Indonesia provided 20 additional (Soviet-made) MiG-19s, by 1971 – free of charge – thus bringing the total to around 90 airframes. Theoretically, this figure offered the PAF a significant attrition reserve. Actually, only three units were equipped with the type, and by December 1971 there were only some 54 intact F-6s and MiG-19s with the PAF, of which 48 were operational.
Besides, there was a major problem with their gyro gun-sights, and – even more so – with their manufacturing quality: according to a first-hand account, every airframe was built for only some 30 flying hours and had to be overhauled subsequently, meaning that a considerable part of the fleet was permanently in deep maintenance. Consequently, each squadron had to have a considerable number of airframes in order to keep between 12 and 16 permanently in working condition.

48 operational F-6/Mig-19
most probably some airframes were cannibalized to support spare parts.

Lacking numbers to match Indian numerical superiority, the residue F-86s were complemented by 90 Canadair F.Mk.6 Sabres. These were bought in 1967, by Iran - via a Swiss intermediary - from Germany, without a US end-user certificate (but probably with US convinience). The reported price of the total package was $10 million. Upon their arrival in Iran, the Imperial Iranian Air Force - which operated only a handfull of US-supplied F-86s at the time - plegded inability to overhaul them. For this purpose all the ex-German Sabres were sent to Pakistan - and they never came back. Instead, they were integrated into three PAF units, and by 3 December 1971 at least 88 remained intact, of which 74 were operational. A total of 48 of these were wired for Sidewinders: the PAF thus had a fleet of exactly 72 Sidewinder-compatible F-86F/Sabre F.Mk.6s.

74 operational F-86 F.MK.6
plus 24 Mirage-III
Total PAF operational Fighter combat fleet equals = 207 not 280.
I have a feeling that you dont even read what i post and you reply without comprehending.

but is it the right way of comparison??? We all know that relations with China were not good at that time...And relation between China and Pakistan were pretty good...On top of that US was also tilting towards Pakistan and USSR towards India....So keeping all this in mind how unfair it would be that IAF had to keep reserves for China on Eastern Border??? So all in all IAF had to take care of three major tasks
- Ground Support to Troops in East Pakistan
- Air Superiority in Western Sector to deny Pakistan Troops much needed Air Support
- Keep Reserves in Eastern Sector for China

US was not supporting Pakistan as much as it use to during 50s and early 60s. India faced no direct threat from PLAAF since all of their fleet were directed on the east and north. GO AND DO SOME RESEARCH.

- dont bring land warfare in air wars. I know for ego satisfactions Indians take huge pride of isolated east wing.
- Air superiority in western sector?
You mean this sort of air superiority?

Now considering all this do you guys really think that disparity was 2.3:1??? Anyways lets leave it there and move on to third topic....

Pakistan

The following fighters comprises backbone of PAF...

F-6 : 72 were delivered by China as AID in 65-66..Another 103 were on order between 71-72...Can't say how much were delivered before the war....However With pakistan on war i won't be surprised if quick delivery of a significant number took place...but just to be fair lets keep them out of equation...

Imagination? Indians were even claiming PAF was supplied with Chinese Mig-17s during 65 war on quick base.

Mirage -3E : Conflict in the number(24 or 28)...So for now lets stick to 24.
Mirage -5 : Again 30 were on order between 71-72. Since conflicts so lets keep them out of equation...

Why do you keep bringing in fleet that did not even exist? 28 Mirages? 30 Mirage-5?

out of which PAF had only 24 operational Mirage-III during 71 war. If you were paying attention I have already debunked indians who were trying to prove that either arabs supplied more mirages or PAF bought more Mirages.

F-86F Sabres : 90 were delivered from Germany in 1966

Wrong.

Lacking numbers to match Indian numerical superiority, the residue F-86s were complemented by 90 Canadair F.Mk.6 Sabres. These were bought in 1967, by Iran - via a Swiss intermediary - from Germany, without a US end-user certificate (but probably with US convinience). The reported price of the total package was $10 million. Upon their arrival in Iran, the Imperial Iranian Air Force - which operated only a handfull of US-supplied F-86s at the time - plegded inability to overhaul them. For this purpose all the ex-German Sabres were sent to Pakistan - and they never came back. Instead, they were integrated into three PAF units, and by 3 December 1971 at least 88 remained intact, of which 74 were operational. A total of 48 of these were wired for Sidewinders: the PAF thus had a fleet of exactly 72 Sidewinder-compatible F-86F/Sabre F.Mk.6s.

The following fighters comprises backbone of IAF

Mig-21(Fishbed C) : 10
Mig-21(Fishbed D) : 206-approx(note : India got 256 from 1964-1973)
Su-7b : 140
Gnat : 200 Approx
Hunter : 48
Canberra : 12

India

source ACIG.org

The IAF was considerably expanded and modernised since 1965, and by 1971 was a huge air force, boasting some 50 Squadrons – including transport and helicopter units – and over 80.000 officers, NCOs and soldiers. Between 1966 and 1971, it received a mixed force of around 740 Soviet, Western, and Indian-origin combat aircraft. By November 1971, some 656 of these were deployed with operational units. Each IAF combat unit should have had 18 fighter-bombers on strength and therefore the IAF could reach back on eight squadrons with some 144 MiG-21FL and MiG-21Us, six squadrons with 104 Su-7BMKs and 12 Su-7UMs, eight squadrons with 144 Gnats, six squadrons with 95 Hunter F.Mk.56s and T.Mk.66s (reported number of airframes as of 1971; other sources report up to 126 airframes in operational units), two Squadrons with some 36 HF-24 Maruts, two squadrons with 36 Mystére IVA, and five units with a total of 85 Canberra bombers of all versions. The reported mission capable rates were between 65 and 70%, and many IAF squadrons lacked experienced and qualified officers, so that the actual maximal number of aircraft the IAF could deploy at once was closer to 630.

Nevertheless, the IAF had a sizeable attrition reserve, including up to 50 MiG-21s, 30 Su-7s, up to 15 HF-24s, perhaps as many as 30 Hunters, and at least 20 Mystére IVAs.

- 144 Mig-21
- 116 Su-7
- 144 Gnats
- 95 Hunters (other sources put the numbers up to 126 airframes)
- 36 HF-24
- 36 Mystere IVA
- 85 Canberra

total operational combat aircrafts= 656
Reserve= 145

Now i will leave the comparison to experts out here...However if we leave the disparity of numbers then PAF were equipped with the likes of Mirages, F-104, Sabres...India had Mig-21 and Su-7b and gnats...Moreover the only jet that was fitted with A2A Missile in IAF was Mig-21...Rest were dependent on their canons...On the other hand F-104, Mirage and Sabres were fitted with A2A missiles which also comprised bulk of their fighters whereas 2/3 of IAF fighters were only dependent on cannons to do their job...So in short the best and bulk of PAF fighters had huge advantage over IAF counterparts i.e. A2A missile....

Corrections.
Not all PAF F-86 F-6 and F-104 fleet were equipped with Aim-9B.
Hunters were great dog fighters which even replaced Sabres in British Air force. Gnats were small agile fighters very hard to get it on your 12 even if you have a sidewinder which has only 16% success kill rate.
Your ratios are absolutely wrong and baseless.

PAF only "technical" advantage over IAF was Mirages in fact only 24 of them but they were too little to shift the balance.
On the other hand.
IAF had better dog fighters such as Hunters Gnats and Mig-21 and better ground attack aircrafts such as Su-7 and Canberra.

Comparison

It is being claimed that R-13S was russian copy of Sidewinder...Here is what is being attributed to Sidewinder

R-13S was a improved variant of AA-2 and thus R-13S was not a direct copy of AIM-9B. Its like saying all US rocket technology are based on V-2 technology and cant be superior because they were "copied".

"The AIM-9 Sidewinder is the world's most successful short-range air-to-air missile"

You are obviously quoting a comment about further variants of Aim-9 which are in fact 40 times better then Aim-9B.
With only 16% success rate Aim-9B cant be the "most successful SRAAM in the world".
Atleast try to comprehend that.

As far as both the missiles fair against each other then one can easily make up their mind that unlike PAF IAF was very unhappy with the performance of their A2A missile....Rest i will leave it to experts...

IAF was unhappy with the variant of AA-2 it received with first batch of Mig-21 in 1963/64. R-13S variants were produced in india under license up until 80s.

Conclusion : There is no doubt IAF had numerical superiority over PAF...but was it superior in quality as well??? I don't think so

- PAF fighters were equipped with better and more reliable A2A
- Bulk of PAF fighters were equipped with A2A missiles whereas 2/3 of IAF fighters were without A2A missiles
- PAF had better radar coverage then their counterparts
- Numerical Advantage was not 2.3:1 in IAF favor, it was way less then that because it was negated by other factors...Also if we add fighters that were given by friendly country(Jordan,China etc) then disparity will reduce considerably...

how did you come to the conclusion without even getting to technical terms.

- Tell me, for god sake. If you are sane how is Aim-9B with only 16% success rate better then R-13S which was a improved variant of copied Aim-9B?
- Hardly 100 PAF fighters were equipped with AAM. On the other hand IAF Mig-21 (3rd generation air craft) equipped with better AAM was pitched against 1st generation Sabres F-104 and F-6 (2nd generation).
- The ratio was at least 3:1 in favor of IAF.

In essence numerical superiority of IAF was negated by PAF by having luxury of better radar coverage and better missiles

hmmmm. i will have you re think about that.

 

[deckingraj]

F***kin sssss!!!tttt!
As i was about to finish such a lengthy reply for some **** reason the page vanished!!!!!! arrrrrrrg.

i will make this reply short..

Sorry about you loosing your work....

hmmmm. i will have you re think about that.

Sure i will but remember do consider my latest replies to your post before picking up something old and then saying "Comprehend what i am saying"...

I will get back to you...Also i have used SIPRI(as suggested by you to be probably the most accurate) to see what all India and Pak ordered from 1950-1970....So either that source is providing wrong information and thus not credible or some of your assertions are wrong...i will highlight them later...for now lets enjoy the Friday evening and the long weekend...

 

[Myth_buster_1]

- In 1971-72 you ordered 30 Mirage V and finally retired F-104's even though spare parts issue was no longer a problem. As per Windjammer(he even shares newspaper cutting) US offered you more F-104's...

Prove it with a link that spare was not the problem?

And i totally agree with you...What i am questioning is that during arms embargo you were able to fly these fighters facing all those hardships but choose to retire them right after war when more fighters/spare parts were offered....I am not able to make sense out of it...need some help...thanks in advance...

I have already answered after 65 war PAF F-104 were in poor conditions and pilots had to clock their hours in some other type of fighters. Jordan with limited F-104 were able to supply limited amount of spare.

Hang on there...Soviet's came up with a copy of Sidewinder called R-13S in 1961...This is the time when you were getting delivery of this missile from US...I have clearly said the later on IAF would definitely have got the better version of missile then Sidewinder AIM-9B however there is no source that tell the same....The link that you have shared is just a claim that R-13s was better than AIM-9B though quite interestingly a copy becomes better then original version...Still since i a have trust in your knowledge background so i will do more research and get back to you...Till then lets assumr R-13s was better then Sidewinder Aim-9B....Fair??

You talk about but sometimes make very less sense.
You do know V-2 technology was copied by Americans? right? And i will let you do the comprehension and let you figure out that indeed a copied technology can be improved.
Prime example. Chinese J-7 which was a copy of Mig-21F, and now its a total new product with 5x improved capabilities.

However why are you ignoring the fact that IAF denounced the version right after the war...Does this say anything about the advanced missile??? Also are you saying that Sabres, F-6, F-104's equipped with Aim-9B was no match for Hunters with its canon??? Did you really said that Growler??? It is well known that one has to use to weakness of the enemy but thats is what the rule of engagement is....F-104 was never meant for DogFights,..it was hit and run platform and IAF calle dit hooligan because of sheer speed...IAF was intimitaded by this fighter in 65 war when we had plenty of Gnats and Hunters......If would be wrong for you to say Gnats or Hunters were better in Dog Fighting and thus disparity was not there....Hunters and Gnats were sitting ducks to F-104 unless and until they do not engage it in Dog-fight...So it boils down to tactics which would always be the case...but why are we trying to ignore the disparity?? Are you saying F-104's always engaged in dog fights???

I suggest you do more research before you start commenting and start waiting my time.
Go watch some youtube vidoes about Hunters capabilities even without Aim-9B equivalent AAM.

On Paper Hunters and Gnats were sitting ducks against F-104 armed with Aim-9B...Do you agree or not???

So in order to achieve 100% success rate vs Gnat and Hunters at least 6 Aim-9B must be fired at it meaing 3 Sabre carrying 2 each would do the job and still with such a limited off bore sight it could still be evaded.

So are you saying that Hunters and Gnats were state of art combat aircrafts during 60's??? It is very obvious that your were a NOn-Nato ally and you will get downgraded weapons then what USAF was using...Does this mean that relations were not good???

Pakistan is still today a fu-cking Non-Nato ally! so are we receiving superior MRCAs then India who has been offered better F-16 and F-18?
PAF equivalency of IAF buying Mig-21 Su-7 should have been F-105 and F-5 from US but this was not the case in 60s.

Do you want me to post all the weapons that you got in AID from US during 1956-1965???? They were more advanced then your adversary and that's what matters...You introduced A2A missile in subcontinent way back in 1959 when IAF had no clue about it...Does this account to any good relations or not???

such as F-4, F-5, B-52, F-105, etc?

This is least expected from you...Growler i am not a fanboy who want to glorify IAF...If they indeed did bad i will not loose my sleep...In the end we won the war and that's what matters to me even if it was MB who fought and IA was sleeping, i simply don't care...

Already answered.

Are you in denial mode or it was an honest mistake as far as bolded part is concerned??? If PAK had only china then where did 24 Mirage III came from??? How about 90 F-86F Sabres that you got from Germany?? Obviously when you had US to take care of your needs(and that bulk in AID) why would you need more partners(though it was mistake to put all your eggs in one basket)...and what did you say about UK??? Do you want me to list weapons that you got from UK even after US imposed Arms embargo???

And do you want me to list all the equipments India received from US during that period? This may go off topic but i want to end it right here after this. US started your Space program. enough said.

Comon growler...Firstly it was 680+, secondly even they did not move their military towards border...Does that mean we did not keep reserves in our eastern sector(in case they choose to)??? Don't you agree that there was a real chance of China joining in(Even US backed them)...IAF would be bunch of fools if they would have ignored that threat....

Did PLAAF attack india in 1962? They did not even have any airbase that close enough within a strike distance!

Where you are missing me is that i always said disparity was there between India and Pakistan...I never once said the opposite...What i am saying is that it was not as huge as made out to be...You had better radar coverage, More percentage of fighters equipped with A2A missile apart from other geo-political factors(China) did negate the numerical superiority to some extent...

You are blowing India pak technical "disparity" out of proportion! PAF did not even have any such thing during 71 war.

Moreover F-86F Sabre was a very potent platform and many experts have placed it higher then Hunters and Gnats by a significant margin...Anyways i would let this one go or else our posts would become to big to conclude anything...

Indian experts dont count here.

The Americans considered Mig-15 better fighter then Sabres however it was only American Pilots that gave them such air superiority over korea!